Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

[TheShredder]

Crowder didn't seem to have the focus or be as locked in to his overall game play last year.  Normally you have a WR development where the second year is the first level where a WR takes a career forward.  Crowder did make that step.  His year 3 was a slight statistical decline.  This wasn't a major sign of a downgrade IMO .  It just wasn't another step forward to the next level.  Possible that he's peaked.  Essentially being valued at 750 yards and 3-5 TD type of NFL WR.  That's going to put him in the realm of a #3 or #4 guy.  From a roster point of view, you need those guys.  I like the fact he's in a contract year.  That normally fuels the fire for a statistical improvement (bar injury).  If he get's locked in with AS then he should find his niche.  

 

 

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, Chachie said:

 

 

To think that Cousins is getting Thielen and Diggs makes me realize how average the WRs are that Alex Smith is inheriting.

 

Diggs had something like 800 yards receiving last year.  And I don't think any team comes into Minnesota saying, "we have to double team Thielen or we're gong to lose."

[TheShredder]

Norman did an interview this off-season at the MLB All-Star Game and he said that the WR that gives you (the DB) the biggest trouble and what makes him the #1 threat is the guy who runs his all the routes, at the same speed. So a guy who can 1- Run all the routes and 2 - Run them at the same speed.  

 

Also think that Reed makes all the WR's better and since he's so often not on the field, that takes away from the WR corp as a whole.  Essentially spending a lot of money on a guy who plays half the time isn't going to get it done for your unit.  He essentially plays half the year.  Currently on schedule to play 9 games this year. This is simply his statistical average. It's my opinion that for the WR corp to be successful, they need Reed to be on the field +70% of their games. 

 

When applying the NFL WR career formula, Paul Richardson Jr is the guy who is following the career path to Elite status.  His second year was lost to injury.  Year 3 (career year 2), is where their supposed to take a step to the next level, which he did and played another 15 games.  Then, career year 3 (year 4 for Richardson), is supposed to be the breakout year for NFL WR's that have excellent careers...Richardson broke out.  Just happened to be his year 4, but none the less, his career year 3.  If there's two guys that you'd expect to have really good statistical years or upside years, it would be Richardson and Doctson. Not Crowder.  

[Morneblade]

10 hours ago, Ashburn Dave said:

 

 

Back to the point.  Everyone knows Alex is the starter for 2-3 years so you have that stability now.  This puts him and our WR's in a better position to succeed.

 

The other thing I'm reading is that Alex is making it a point to move around in team meetings so he can get to know all the players.  I don't think talent wise Kirk is any better than Alex so I see no reason why Alex can't put up Kirk number in this offense.

 

Tell me, how does being signed to a multi-year contract make a guy a better QB? And while I get what you are trying to say about a Great QB making his WR's better, Alex Smith, on his best day, is not a great QB. He is not going to elevate the play of our WR's. So, again, how does this make our WR's better?

 

10 hours ago, skinny21 said:

No guarantees of course, but...

1.  More games from Thompson and Reed.  

2.  More experience/comfort for wrs Doctson, Harris and Davis. 

3.  A deep threat to pair with Doctson and to help open up the underneath stuff. 

4.  A back that might (should?) be more of a pass weapon on 1st and 2nd downs. 

 

Again, I think I’m not that far off from where you’re at actually - the lack of a do-it-all receiver, a guy to game plan around, plus the injury histories of Doctson, Reed, Richardson and Thompson, are concerning.  I do, however, feel there’s some potential and talent there as a group.  I don’t feel they’ll be able to carry the team (feel the same way about Smith), but I’m hopeful they can at least be pretty effective. 

 

1. Neither of those guys are WR's, and that's kinda my point.

2. Maybe. But then again, it might show that we really don't have any talent there at all.

3. Richardson has to show that he is a deep threat first. Then maybe it helps.

4. Once again, not a WR.

 

I'll go back to what I said. True, we don't have a do it all receiver. We also don't have a GOOD receiver of any kind. Crowder is a pretty good slot guy, and he is the best we have. Doctson right now is a really sub-par #2 WR. Richardson is too. None of these guys can physical WR's None are good blocker. None are reliable chain movers. We don't have anyone that can do a lot of things good WR's do. We have a guy that can do a couple thigns good WR's can, and a couple guys that we don't know if they can really do anything yet.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

1. Neither of those guys are WR's, and that's kinda my point.

2. Maybe. But then again, it might show that we really don't have any talent there at all.

3. Richardson has to show that he is a deep threat first. Then maybe it helps.

4. Once again, not a WR.

 

I'll go back to what I said. True, we don't have a do it all receiver. We also don't have a GOOD receiver of any kind. Crowder is a pretty good slot guy, and he is the best we have. Doctson right now is a really sub-par #2 WR. Richardson is too. None of these guys can physical WR's None are good blocker. None are reliable chain movers. We don't have anyone that can do a lot of things good WR's do. We have a guy that can do a couple thigns good WR's can, and a couple guys that we don't know if they can really do anything yet.

I said earlier they have a chance of being significantly better.  What I didn’t say was that I also feel there’s a chance they’re worse, and a better chance they put up roughly the same production or a bit better.  

 

Doctson and Harris are third year players, so maybe things click for them.  Richardson is in a similar boat of course due to injury.  Davis is an unknown (Quinn too), but has some really nice athletic traits.  You know all of this, but I feel like it bears repeating.  For the record, watching Harris in college, I liked him a lot in the role you’re looking for - the consistent chain mover. 

 

We’re also talking aggregate here, so even if you don’t see any of these young guys making a leap such as guys like Ioannidas and Fuller did, if they can improve their game marginally, that would likely add up to a ‘significantly better’ group.  

 

Again, I get it though.  The injury histories, the lack of proven talent, the lack of an all-around receiver, this group is probably close to the bottom of the barrel on paper.  I’m just trying to say I see a ray of hope.. and I’m hoping the rest of the team can help.  

[Ashburn Dave]

5 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

Tell me, how does being signed to a multi-year contract make a guy a better QB? And while I get what you are trying to say about a Great QB making his WR's better, Alex Smith, on his best day, is not a great QB. He is not going to elevate the play of our WR's. So, again, how does this make our WR's better?

 

I don't think I said it makes him a better QB because he has a contract.  I said it gives him stability.

 

Just my opinion and I'm not to get in any more back in forth trying to prove it to you either.  Enjoy!

[Burgold]

5 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

Tell me, how does being signed to a multi-year contract make a guy a better QB? And while I get what you are trying to say about a Great QB making his WR's better, Alex Smith, on his best day, is not a great QB. He is not going to elevate the play of our WR's. So, again, how does this make our WR's better?

 

Kirk and Alex are a lot alike, but just having watched the games I'll say that my biggest frustration with Kirk was that he was really conservative with the ball. He didn't take any chances in the beginning of the game, or if the game was tight. He'd open it up in the second half if we were down and that's where we'd see the big plays and great throws. Kirk was also very good at timing passes. In fact, he might have been too good and so quick at times that he missed better opportunities. Overall, I think Cousins was capable of doing more than he did. Was that because his nature or was he opposed to risk because he didn't feel stable here? Alex Smith is willing to go off schedule more often. He is is less of a "programmed" quarterback. That said, he also seems to be conservative.

 

Ultimately, time will tell. I think both are good, not great QBs.

[Morneblade]

10 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I said earlier they have a chance of being significantly better.  What I didn’t say was that I also feel there’s a chance they’re worse, and a better chance they put up roughly the same production or a bit better.  

 

Doctson and Harris are third year players, so maybe things click for them.  Richardson is in a similar boat of course due to injury.  Davis is an unknown (Quinn too), but has some really nice athletic traits.  You know all of this, but I feel like it bears repeating.  For the record, watching Harris in college, I liked him a lot in the role you’re looking for - the consistent chain mover. 

 

We’re also talking aggregate here, so even if you don’t see any of these young guys making a leap such as guys like Ioannidas and Fuller did, if they can improve their game marginally, that would likely add up to a ‘significantly better’ group.  

 

Again, I get it though.  The injury histories, the lack of proven talent, the lack of an all-around receiver, this group is probably close to the bottom of the barrel on paper.  I’m just trying to say I see a ray of hope.. and I’m hoping the rest of the team can help.  

 

Those guys made leaps in their 2nd year though, speaking of Ioannidas and Fuller. You can say that Doctson is a 2nd year player because of his injury. The other guys are not. I'm not really expecting anyone on this squad to make a big jump. All I see is a group that to be blunt, is very lacking. I agree with your last assessment, that it's close to the bottom of the barrel.

 

5 hours ago, Ashburn Dave said:

 

I don't think I said it makes him a better QB because he has a contract.  I said it gives him stability.

 

Just my opinion and I'm not to get in any more back in forth trying to prove it to you either.  Enjoy!

 

This is what you said "Everyone knows Alex is the starter for 2-3 years so you have that stability now.  This puts him and our WR's in a better position to succeed." So, why does this actually help?

 

5 hours ago, Burgold said:

Kirk and Alex are a lot alike, but just having watched the games I'll say that my biggest frustration with Kirk was that he was really conservative with the ball. He didn't take any chances in the beginning of the game, or if the game was tight. He'd open it up in the second half if we were down and that's where we'd see the big plays and great throws. Kirk was also very good at timing passes. In fact, he might have been too good and so quick at times that he missed better opportunities. Overall, I think Cousins was capable of doing more than he did. Was that because his nature or was he opposed to risk because he didn't feel stable here? Alex Smith is willing to go off schedule more often. He is is less of a "programmed" quarterback. That said, he also seems to be conservative.

 

Ultimately, time will tell. I think both are good, not great QBs.

 

I tend to agree with this. In some ways Kirk, if he can just let go a little, would be a better QB than he is now. I'm going to disagree with you about Smith and Cousins being about the same QB. I think Cousins is better, and I'm going to point to this breakdown as to why: https://www.hogshaven.com/2018/2/10/16993120/skins-stats-a-statistical-review-of-the-alex-smith-trade

 

Cousins' Worst Season vs. Smith's Best Season (min 224 Att)
* - Denotes the stat was recorded in 2017
Category	Worst KC	Best AS	AS > KC Worst
Cmp	347 *	341 *	0
Cmp %	64.3% *	67.5% *	1
First Downs	191 *	184 *	0
TD	25	26 *	1
Pass Yards	4093 *	4042 *	0
Y/A	7.58 *	8.00 *	1
QB Rating	93.9 *	104.7 *	2

Career Totals
Category	Cousins	Smith
Yards/G	261.4	204.4
Y/A	7.7	6.9
ANY/A	6.75	5.80
Cmp/G	22.1	18.4
Y/Cmp	11.8	11.1
Cmp %	65.5%	62.4%
FD %	36.1%	32.7%
TD %	4.7%	4.0%
INT %	2.6%	2.1%
Sack %	4.8%	7.8%
QB Rating	93.7	87.4
Rush Y/G	6.1	15.6
Count	10	2

QBs who averaged 260+ yards per game and a passer rating over 90 thru the first six seasons of their career:
Dan Marino
Kurt Warner
Kirk Cousins http://pfref.com/tiny/Ocs2K

 

Since merger, min. 400 pass attempts, age 27-29, YPA+ of 110+ where 100 is league average, all three years:

Favre 1996-1998
Peyton 2003-2005
Rivers 2008-2010
Rodgers 2010-2012
Romo 2007-2009
COUSINS 2015-2017

 

# of Seasons (min 224 Att)
> or = unless otherwise noted
Category	Cousins	Smith
Years	6	12
224 Att Years	3	9
4,000 Pass Yards	3	1
200 Pass FD	2	0
25 Pass TD	3	1
7.5 Y/A	3	1
7.0 ANY/A	2	1
95 QB Rating	2	2
< 5.0% Sack Rate	2	0
< 2.0% INT Rate	1	6
65 Total QBR	2	0
85 PFF Grade	1	2
15.0% DVOA	2	1
Count	8	2

 

Top-10 Seasons (min 224 Att)
Category	Cousins	Smith
All Years	6	12
224 Att Years	3	9
Comp	3	1
Cmp %	3	4
Pass Yds	3	1
Pass FD	3	1
Pass TD	1	1
INT %	1	6
Sack %	2	0
Y/A	3	1
ANY/A	2	2
QB Rating	2	3
PFF	1	2
DVOA	2	1
QBR	2	2
Count	5	4

Edited July 29, 2018 by Morneblade

[samy316]

TBH, I'm NOT expecting much from our receiving core.  I actually think it's one of our biggest weaknesses on the team next to our CB group.  I don't trust Doctson at all, and there are BIG question marks regarding Paul Richardson.  I only trust Crowder, but he had a bad season last year to be frank, and he needs to redeem himself this year.  I think if we're going to have a good offense this year, it might have to be our rookie running back & TE group (looking at you Jordan Reed) to carry us.  If Jordan Reed can play 11+ games this year, and Guice has an 1100+ yard season, we should be okay, even with the predicted lack of consistency fro the WR corp.

 

On another note, I really think we should've gotten Allen Robinson instead of Paul Richardson this past offseason.  Robinson would've been an excellent pickup, and we wouldn't have to worry so much about our outside receiving threats, since he's been proven to be a pretty good outside receiver.  Doctson really has to pick it up this year.  Out of all the guys with something to prove, he should be at the very top, or close to it.  If he can't get a 1K season, and at least 8TD's or more as the #1 receiver, he is going to be labeled a bust, and deservedly so.  He's been a big time disappointment up until now.  I have low expectations of him until he proves otherwise.

Edited July 29, 2018 by samy316

[skinny21]

@Morneblade  So I’m not really sure what your argument is now, but it seems to be something like “this group is bad and has zero hope of improving”.  

If so, you could be right.  I’m not sure why you seem unwilling to see even any potential positives though.  

 

Ok, I take that back - not drinking the koolaid is probably a sound strategy given our history.  On the other hand, I feel like I’m considering ordering a glass of the koolaid down the road just in case a reason arises to drink it (I’m not buying in yet), but you seem against even that stance.  

 

My examples of Io and Fuller weren’t great ones - they were just very recent examples of Redskin players surprisingly turning it around in a short time.  But, would you at least accept that there’s a reason for the cliche that things often click for receivers in their third year?  Or that between injuries (Doctson and Richardson) or lack of opportunity (Harris and Davis), we have guys that could be just hitting their stride and could possibly show marked improvement?

 

Not trying to come across antagonistically, I do appreciate that you’re bringing a heavy dose of (what I would call) ‘reality’ to the discussion.  There’s a difference however, between saying this is the reality vs also saying this will continue to be the reality in the future.  Not acceding the latter is at least a partial unknown is what’s a little exasperating for me.  Even more so because I’m agreeing with your current view of ‘reality’ - in terms of the receiving corp, but also in terms of Smith and (IIRC), the idea of signing Hankins.  

 

Anywho, good discussion.  

[mistertim]

@Morneblade Not sure that those YPA+ numbers necessarily equate to a great QB. Obviously there are great QBs who have great YPA+ but there have also been some very mediocre ones. For example, here's an article from 2012 claiming that, because of his YPA+ number, Matt Schaub is a top notch Super Bowl caliber QB.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1133387-matt-schaub-is-a-super-bowl-caliber-quarterback

 

If you look at that list you certainly see some greats, but you also see some "meh" guys: Schaub, Gannon, Delhomme to a certain extent Hasselbeck (though he had some decent years). I just don't necessarily think there's an automatic correlation. If you put up the list you had:

 

Marino, Warner, Favre, Peyton, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Cousins.....who looks like the odd man out in that list? One could argue Romo as well as Kirk but despite being a choker, Romo had great playmaking ability. Also, I noticed that Brady is not in the list. Does that mean he's not that great? You can find stats to support pretty much anything. 

 

Personally I think Smith and Kirk are about even, with each having things he does better than the other. Neither are elite QBs but I think they're both capable of doing well with the right scheme and the right team around them.

[Morneblade]

17 hours ago, skinny21 said:

@Morneblade  So I’m not really sure what your argument is now, but it seems to be something like “this group is bad and has zero hope of improving”.  

If so, you could be right.  I’m not sure why you seem unwilling to see even any potential positives though.  

 

Ok, I take that back - not drinking the koolaid is probably a sound strategy given our history.  On the other hand, I feel like I’m considering ordering a glass of the koolaid down the road just in case a reason arises to drink it (I’m not buying in yet), but you seem against even that stance.  

 

My examples of Io and Fuller weren’t great ones - they were just very recent examples of Redskin players surprisingly turning it around in a short time.  But, would you at least accept that there’s a reason for the cliche that things often click for receivers in their third year?  Or that between injuries (Doctson and Richardson) or lack of opportunity (Harris and Davis), we have guys that could be just hitting their stride and could possibly show marked improvement?

 

Not trying to come across antagonistically, I do appreciate that you’re bringing a heavy dose of (what I would call) ‘reality’ to the discussion.  There’s a difference however, between saying this is the reality vs also saying this will continue to be the reality in the future.  Not acceding the latter is at least a partial unknown is what’s a little exasperating for me.  Even more so because I’m agreeing with your current view of ‘reality’ - in terms of the receiving corp, but also in terms of Smith and (IIRC), the idea of signing Hankins.  

 

Anywho, good discussion.  

 

I'm being realistic, and cautious. Right now, the WR group going on their past, is bad. I think the depth part is ok, only because I don't see a big drop off in talent between the 1st and 5th WR. Quick might be better than Doctson right now, and I think he's better in certain aspects, such as being a physical WR than anyone else on the roster. I think M. Harris is about as good as our #1 and #2 guys are, and probably has better hands. But do I think anyone gives a D. Coordinator pause? No. Basically, everyone is a JAG going by history. Now, we do have guys that are young, and could evolve into being good NFL WR's but as of now, they are not, with the exception of Crowder. But he took a step back last year.

 

15 hours ago, mistertim said:

@Morneblade Not sure that those YPA+ numbers necessarily equate to a great QB. Obviously there are great QBs who have great YPA+ but there have also been some very mediocre ones. For example, here's an article from 2012 claiming that, because of his YPA+ number, Matt Schaub is a top notch Super Bowl caliber QB.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1133387-matt-schaub-is-a-super-bowl-caliber-quarterback

 

If you look at that list you certainly see some greats, but you also see some "meh" guys: Schaub, Gannon, Delhomme to a certain extent Hasselbeck (though he had some decent years). I just don't necessarily think there's an automatic correlation. If you put up the list you had:

 

Marino, Warner, Favre, Peyton, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Cousins.....who looks like the odd man out in that list? One could argue Romo as well as Kirk but despite being a choker, Romo had great playmaking ability. Also, I noticed that Brady is not in the list. Does that mean he's not that great? You can find stats to support pretty much anything. 

 

Personally I think Smith and Kirk are about even, with each having things he does better than the other. Neither are elite QBs but I think they're both capable of doing well with the right scheme and the right team around them.

 

1. Ok, so you picked out one stat. What about the others?

2. I disagree with Smith and Kirk being about the same. The stats above show that Kirk has shown to be a better QB. Smith's best and Cousin's worst season are similar. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that they are about the same.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Morneblade

[Burgold]

31 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

 

1. Ok, so you picked out one stat. What about the others?

2. I disagree with Smith and Kirk being about the same. The stats above show that Kirk has shown to be a better QB. Smith's best and Cousin's worst season are similar. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that they are about the same.

In fairness, you did not include Cousins' worst years. There were two years before he was named starter where he also received substantial playing time (technically three years). In both those years, he was benched for poor play and replaced by Colt McCoy. In fact, there were several times that the Shannys declared that McCoy was the sounder pick to start. Remember, Colt was benched because of injury. Kirk was benched because of performance and because he was a turnover machine. Prior to Kirk's light going on, halfway through his first season as a starter, Cousin's had a pattern: he would start out hot, then defenses would figure him out and his productivity would fall off a cliff. 

 

Even as a starter, Kirk's numbers fell dramatically on third downs and in the second half of games.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Burgold

[Jericho]

4 hours ago, samy316 said:

TBH, I'm NOT expecting much from our receiving core.  I actually think it's one of our biggest weaknesses on the team next to our CB group.  I don't trust Doctson at all, and there are BIG question marks regarding Paul Richardson.  I only trust Crowder, but he had a bad season last year to be frank, and he needs to redeem himself this year.  I think if we're going to have a good offense this year, it might have to be our rookie running back & TE group (looking at you Jordan Reed) to carry us.  If Jordan Reed can play 11+ games this year, and Guice has an 1100+ yard season, we should be okay, even with the predicted lack of consistency fro the WR corp.

 

On another note, I really think we should've gotten Allen Robinson instead of Paul Richardson this past offseason.  Robinson would've been an excellent pickup, and we wouldn't have to worry so much about our outside receiving threats, since he's been proven to be a pretty good outside receiver.  Doctson really has to pick it up this year.  Out of all the guys with something to prove, he should be at the very top, or close to it.  If he can't get a 1K season, and at least 8TD's or more as the #1 receiver, he is going to be labeled a bust, and deservedly so.  He's been a big time disappointment up until now.  I have low expectations of him until he proves otherwise.

 

I tend to agree. It is interesting to think that 2 years ago most people felt WR was the strongest position on the team and last year most people felt CB was the strongest position. Just goes to show how quickly things change.

 

Anyhow, while I'm far more optimistic at CB, I think the WR position group has huge questions. Even if things going really well, the group may be no better than average. Mind you, I'm not including TEs in that discussion. But the team will keep at least 5 WRs on the final 53 and there's currently only 3 players that are locks: (1) Crowder; (2) Richardson; and (3) Doctson. Crowder is the most proven player, having three straight seasons over 600 yards. But I'm not sure he's more than a slot guy. Which means you're asking a lot of Doctson and Richardson. Between them, they have 6 NFL season and only one better than Crowder's worst. Injuries have played a huge part in Doctson and Richardson's lack of production. But assuming health is a fool's errand. Richardson was solid last year, but that's 1 year in 4 that he as any good and not injured. So we basically hope and pray both stay healthy and take steps forward. 

 

While I do like Allen Robinson, I don't feel he's worth twice the contract as Richardson. Beyond the top 3, we're basically hoping for someone to emerge between a 6th round developmental pick (Davis), a no-name UDFA (Harris), a former 2nd rounder with a long NFL history of nothing (Quick), a late 7th rounder (Quinn), and a slew of UDFAs. Sure, sometimes those players hit. But the vast majority of the time they are misses. So the Redskins seem to be buying a bunch of lottery tickets and hoping something hits. A very risky strategy.

[Morneblade]

6 hours ago, Burgold said:

In fairness, you did not include Cousins' worst years. There were two years before he was named starter where he also received substantial playing time (technically three years). In both those years, he was benched for poor play and replaced by Colt McCoy. In fact, there were several times that the Shannys declared that McCoy was the sounder pick to start. Remember, Colt was benched because of injury. Kirk was benched because of performance and because he was a turnover machine. Prior to Kirk's light going on, halfway through his first season as a starter, Cousin's had a pattern: he would start out hot, then defenses would figure him out and his productivity would fall off a cliff. 

 

Even as a starter, Kirk's numbers fell dramatically on third downs and in the second half of games.

 

The stats I included required a minimum number of passes. And they are not my stats, they were put together over at Hogs Haven (link included for more information if you so desire). It also didn't including some of Smith's worse seasons, including his 1st, 3rd and last year as a 49er before he was benched, due to lack of passes. As in:

**Please note the NFL requires players to reach certain minimums to qualify as a leader in per-game stats, percentage stats and passer rating. The post-1978 requirement is 14 passing attempts per game, which comes to 224 total attempts in a 16-game season. Only qualifying seasons were observed when individual season rankings were counted in this study.**

 

So, this comes out as a wash.

 

Do you have the stats for your last point, and stats to see if Smith is better/worse?

 

[MartinC]

On 28/07/2018 at 7:27 PM, Vanguard said:

 

Diggs had something like 800 yards receiving last year.  And I don't think any team comes into Minnesota saying, "we have to double team Thielen or we're gong to lose."

 

Given Thielen had 91 catches for over 1200 yards last season teams might want to think about doubling him this year.

[Alexa]

As far as our wr's, none of them have even had a 1,000 yard season. Doc to me really needs to man up this year. No excuses. 

 

Our TE's, might as well be wr's cause all they can do is catch. They're terrible blockers so that will really hurt our running game. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 7/29/2018 at 1:02 AM, Morneblade said:

 

I'll go back to what I said. True, we don't have a do it all receiver. We also don't have a GOOD receiver of any kind. Crowder is a pretty good slot guy, and he is the best we have. Doctson right now is a really sub-par #2 WR. Richardson is too. None of these guys can physical WR's None are good blocker. None are reliable chain movers. We don't have anyone that can do a lot of things good WR's do. We have a guy that can do a couple thigns good WR's can, and a couple guys that we don't know if they can really do anything yet.

 

 

I am one who believes WR is not at bad of a need as say LG. But you really do make a good argument.  The Redskins have a solid team but other than Reed, who is never healthy, they don't have one player on their team that can carry you to a win. They have no Zeke, OBJ, or a Wentz.  They have a bunch of guys at receiver and with a QB at Smith's level that may not be enough. 

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

 

I am one who believes WR is not at bad of a need as say LG. But you really do make a good argument.  The Redskins have a solid team but other than Reed, who is never healthy, they don't have one player on their team that can carry you to a win. They have no Zeke, OBJ, or a Wentz.  They have a bunch of guys at receiver and with a QB at Smith's level that may not be enough. 

 

I think the biggest difference is depth.....and the fact that you're looking at on position (LG) as opposed to a group.

LG was about the same IMO until Arie went down. A young, unproven guy that MIGHT grow into a pretty good player..............or might not. Which sounds just like both starting X and Y WR. I think Crowder is a pretty good player, even with his struggles last year (mostly on ST to be honest) but everyone else is a big question mark. I think our depth is better at WR than it is at LG, for sure. If Doctson goes down, and say Quick or Harris is his replacement, I don't see a huge drop off. But then, it's because I don't see Doctson to be all that good, but I also don't see Quick or Harris being bad, either. But none of those players are going to scare anyone. I also agree, Smith is not going to carry a team, but he's not going to give it away either. Kirk was more likely to do both, for better and worse. If the D stays healthy, and Guice is what we think he is, and if Reed/Davis stay healthy, I think it will be enough for Smith and the team to succeed. But it's going to take a group effort, and if it ends up on the backs of Smith and our WR group, we're really in trouble, IMO.

[samy316]

https://www.hogshaven.com/2018/7/29/17627480/redskins-training-camp-offensive-breakdowns-who-stood-out-and-who-needs-to-improve

 

WR: This position group left the most to be desired in camp. When I say that, I’m being nice, because I am not confident at all in this group. Let’s start with the bright spots: Jamison Crowder, Brian Quick, and Robert Davis. It’s abundantly clear that Jamison Crowder is Alex Smith’s favorite target. While he isn’t Tyreek Hill, he will represent something Smith actually didn’t have in KC; a receiver that gets open at all levels of the field without depending on scheme. Crowder caught everything thrown his way at every level of the field. Quick was a pleasant surprise. He’s a physical receiver that plays the ball well in the air and found consistent success on intermediate posts, outs, and digs. He made several spectacular catches. Robert Davis looks like he’s gained significant weight when he has, in fact, lost 15 pounds. Either way, it’s clear he’s in much better shape and he looked good this week. He wasn’t just a one-trick pony running 9-routes on every play; he ran solid routes (though some of his breaks are too choppy) and caught passes on multiple routes at multiple levels of the field.

 

Who disappointed? Most notably, Josh Doctson. His nonchalance HAS to get on the coaches’ nerves and he drew more than one passive-aggressive ‘it’s the little things’ comment from a coach. It may just be his personality, but his effort appeared to be significantly lacking in comparison to his teammates. For a player in his position, with such an important year on the horizon, you’d hope he’d show some fire. Even when DJ Swearinger forced, and then scooped, a Doctson fumble in an 11-on-11 session, the receiver didn’t even pretend to chase/atone for his mistake. Slow walks back to the sideline after drops and weak effort in and out of his routes were all too apparent for most of the weekend. Again, it’s possible Doctson is a Marvin Harrison type; a guy that can show very little passion and produce on the field. Time will tell.

 

This is exactly what I was afraid of.  I never really liked the Doctson pick, but going over it now, that was an extraordinarily weak WR draft class.  He's going to have to prove a LOT to me to show me that he deserves being here long term.  I thought the CB group was going to contend as being the weakest unit of our team, but I firmly believe now that the WR Corp is going to be a struggle until proven otherwise.  We all better hope & pray that Jordan Reed is healthy, and that Guice turns out to be a top 10 back, because if we have to lean on this WR Corp for offense due to injuries, we're in big trouble.

Edited July 30, 2018 by samy316

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, samy316 said:

https://www.hogshaven.com/2018/7/29/17627480/redskins-training-camp-offensive-breakdowns-who-stood-out-and-who-needs-to-improve

 

WR: This position group left the most to be desired in camp. When I say that, I’m being nice, because I am not confident at all in this group. Let’s start with the bright spots: Jamison Crowder, Brian Quick, and Robert Davis. It’s abundantly clear that Jamison Crowder is Alex Smith’s favorite target. While he isn’t Tyreek Hill, he will represent something Smith actually didn’t have in KC; a receiver that gets open at all levels of the field without depending on scheme. Crowder caught everything thrown his way at every level of the field. Quick was a pleasant surprise. He’s a physical receiver that plays the ball well in the air and found consistent success on intermediate posts, outs, and digs. He made several spectacular catches. Robert Davis looks like he’s gained significant weight when he has, in fact, lost 15 pounds. Either way, it’s clear he’s in much better shape and he looked good this week. He wasn’t just a one-trick pony running 9-routes on every play; he ran solid routes (though some of his breaks are too choppy) and caught passes on multiple routes at multiple levels of the field.

 

Who disappointed? Most notably, Josh Doctson. His nonchalance HAS to get on the coaches’ nerves and he drew more than one passive-aggressive ‘it’s the little things’ comment from a coach. It may just be his personality, but his effort appeared to be significantly lacking in comparison to his teammates. For a player in his position, with such an important year on the horizon, you’d hope he’d show some fire. Even when DJ Swearinger forced, and then scooped, a Doctson fumble in an 11-on-11 session, the receiver didn’t even pretend to chase/atone for his mistake. Slow walks back to the sideline after drops and weak effort in and out of his routes were all too apparent for most of the weekend. Again, it’s possible Doctson is a Marvin Harrison type; a guy that can show very little passion and produce on the field. Time will tell.

 

This is exactly what I was afraid of.  I never really liked the Doctson pick, but going over it now, that was an extraordinarily weak WR draft class.  He's going to have to prove a LOT to me to show me that he deserves being here long term.  I thought the CB group was going to contend as being the weakest unit of our team, but I firmly believe now that the WR Corp is going to be a struggle until proven otherwise.  We all better hope & pray that Jordan Reed is healthy, and that Guice turns out to be a top 10 back, because if we have to lean on this WR Corp for offense due to injuries, we're in big trouble.

 

Well, I'll try and take the good with the bad here. It's good to see Quick doing something that we have a huge void at. Being a big physical WR that can go over the middle and get 1st downs. Don't forget, he can run for a big guy. So I like to see that his route running is good, that was a concern coming out, he was really raw. Good news on Robert Davis, another big guy that can run, with improved route running. I was happy with getting Davis, and though he might be able to be a surprise.

 

Now, for the bad.

I've already gone over the effort thing, but running bad routes is going to see him out of football FAST if that doesn't change. He's not quick enough or fast enough to get by with running routes that are not crisp. I honestly don't think, unless he gets a fire lit, that he's got the mental makeup to play in the NFL.

[Warhead36]

Meh, Terrell Pryor dominated in camp last year and it didn't mean anything.

[Morneblade]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Meh, Terrell Pryor dominated in camp last year and it didn't mean anything.

 

To be fair, he got dinged up early on and was never 100% for most of the season. But he also was never a guy that looked like he could make catches over the middle either. Anyway, he wasn't very good for us. And yeah, camp really doesn't mean a whole lot.

[zoony]

My bold prediction is that Josh Doctson will do Josh Doctson things.  He will have between 30 and 40 catches and between 400 to 700 yards in 2018.

 

Our savior at WR is not currently on the team.

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, zoony said:

My bold prediction is that Josh Doctson will do Josh Doctson things.  He will have between 30 and 40 catches and between 400 to 700 yards in 2018.

 

Our savior at WR is not currently on the team.

 

And 4-8 TD's?