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Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up


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21 hours ago, skinny21 said:

This is really underrated IMO.  If we have Davis and Reed in, either we struggle to run the ball, or pass and we’re light on pass pro (don’t want to leave Thompson in too much and I haven’t been impressed with our other backs blocking).  

 

Now, we have Sprinkle, but has he shown enough to take snaps from Vernon?  Maybe in short yardage, but otherwise I don’t know.  A well rounded TE could help a lot.  Adding that kind of guy helps Smith, as well as the run game, which means it helps with offensive balance.  Also allows us to treat Reed more as a receiver (which I think helps the talent there).  

 

Personally, I want to see 2 of DT/RB/G addressed in the 1st and 2nd, but if we either sign a DT, or trade back and gain a 2nd or 3rd, I’d be happy to go TE then.  

I think a big bruising Gronk type TE would do wonders for this team. I'd love to have something like that with this team. A two TE set with both guys being a threat. Kinda like a Gronk/Hernandez combo. Reed improves his blocking skills and the Skins could do damage (let alone with a three TE play action set with Vernon).

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31 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

I think a big bruising Gronk type TE would do wonders for this team. I'd love to have something like that with this team. A two TE set with both guys being a threat. Kinda like a Gronk/Hernandez combo. Reed improves his blocking skills and the Skins could do damage (let alone with a three TE play action set with Vernon).

Absolutely.  Kelce is the guy I was thinking of, but same idea really.  

 

I keep going on about it and I’ve used paragraphs and paragraphs.  The bottom line is that we need to improve the run game, we need to improve the receiving weapons, we want Smith comfortable and successful, and we need insurance/replacements for Reed and Davis.  A well rounded TE checks a lot of boxes for us, IMO.  

 

While Schultz and Smythe are probably my favorite mid round (4th-5th?) TEs, I really wonder about Andrews.  He looks the part in the passing game, but his blocking... I dunno.  If he develops that aspect, I believe some team is going to be thrilled to have him.  

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38 minutes ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

^^^I'm sorry but the music just doesn't fit the video...NO, NOT BECAUSE THE PLAYER IS WHITE!!...who puts the music with the video's?

:rofl89:that might be the worst highlight reel music I've ever heard!  

 

What's the word on Hurst? I like his ball tracking abilities.  Is he a day 2 pick?

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Match made in heaven?

 

Quote

 

Smith turned in a career year in what turned out to be his final season with the Chiefs. He was remarkably efficient when throwing to confined spaces in 2017, ranking among the best quarterbacks in completion percentage and passer rating. Smith was still as cautious as ever, throwing just 12.7 percent of his overall passes to a receiver with less than a yard of separation, the second-lowest rate among all quarterbacks. Yet, when he took those chances, he made them count. His 2017 output was a far cry from his expected results, however, as the veteran ranked 25th with a 42.4 tight-window passer rating back in 2016. The Washington Redskins have to hope they get a player closer to the 2017 version after agreeing in principle to a trade that will bring them Smith's services at the start of the new league year.

 

» Several young receivers who could be on the verge of breakout seasons showed out on tight-window throws this past year. Sterling Shepard (Giants) and Josh Doctson (Redskins) both finished inside the top 15 receivers. Shepard owned the second-best catch rate (57.1 percent) among qualifying receivers. Doctson had the 12th-best passer rating (69.3), despite seeing 35.9 percent of his overall targets on tight-window throws. Seahawks wideout Paul Richardson averaged a whopping 27.2 yards per reception on his tight-window catches this year, making difficult vertical plays look routine.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000915001/article/stefon-diggs-marvin-jones-among-top-10-tightwindow-receivers

 

 

 

Both the QB and the WRs seem to be really efficient throwing and catching the ball in confined spaces, respectively.  Though it's kind of odd that Gruden was so vocal about Kirk being unwilling to take chances throwing to confined spaces these last few years, yet we trade for a QB that had the 2nd lowest rate of throws like that among all QBs...

 

EDIT:  Found this tweet.  Guess it isn't all that much of a drop-off.  Still interesting that we would opt for a QB that is liable to frustrate Gruden even more in this particular aspect - an aspect he was extremely vocal about with Cousins, probably Gruden's biggest criticism of our former QB.  

 

 

Edited by HTTRDynasty
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1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

EDIT:  Found this tweet.  Guess it isn't all that much of a drop-off.  Still interesting that we would opt for a QB that is liable to frustrate Gruden even more in this particular aspect - an aspect he was extremely vocal about with Cousins, probably Gruden's biggest criticism of our former QB.  

 

Smith will likely run instead if he chooses not to do that, which should make up for it (as opposed to Cousins typically being scared of the line of scrimmage).

Edited by Renegade7
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1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Match made in heaven?

 

 

 

Both the QB and the WRs seem to be really efficient throwing and catching the ball in confined spaces, respectively.  Though it's kind of odd that Gruden was so vocal about Kirk being unwilling to take chances throwing to confined spaces these last few years, yet we trade for a QB that had the 2nd lowest rate of throws like that among all QBs...

 

EDIT:  Found this tweet.  Guess it isn't all that much of a drop-off.  Still interesting that we would opt for a QB that is liable to frustrate Gruden even more in this particular aspect - an aspect he was extremely vocal about with Cousins, probably Gruden's biggest criticism of our former QB.  

 

 

Personally, I take that Nexgen stat with a grain of salt. Especially, when the stat doesn't indicate those tight throws as completion. Also when I look at some the QBs in the lower end, most of those guys extend plays. Brees' offense doesn't require tight window throws for the most part and Gruden's offense normally has a guy running free. I think Gruden's problem (and mine I might add) with Cousins is that he apparently doesn't throw into tight windows, he misses open receivers and he doesn't really extend plays. So if everything breaks down, Gruden is not confident that Kirk can make a play. I think the reason Cousins doesn't really throw into tight windows is because he has been known to give the ball away when doing so. He'll do ok in Minnesota, because he doesn't have to be the guys your see in the lower half that make plays. He just needs to manage the game. I think Gruden will be ok with Alex.

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32 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Personally, I take that Nexgen stat with a grain of salt. Especially, when the stat doesn't indicate those tight throws as completion. Also when I look at some the QBs in the lower end, most of those guys extend plays. Brees' offense doesn't require tight window throws for the most part and Gruden's offense normally has a guy running free. 

 

Why does the stat have to include completions?  It's a stat that measures how willing a QB is to throw into tight coverage.  It doesn't need to only include completions IMO.  

 

That's a fair point on guys extending plays.  I'm sure that contributes to a lower percentage of tight window throws for some of those guys.

 

 

32 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

I think Gruden's problem (and mine I might add) with Cousins is that he apparently doesn't throw into tight windows, he misses open receivers and he doesn't really extend plays. So if everything breaks down, Gruden is not confident that Kirk can make a play. I think the reason Cousins doesn't really throw into tight windows is because he has been known to give the ball away when doing so. He'll do ok in Minnesota, because he doesn't have to be the guys your see in the lower half that make plays. He just needs to manage the game. I think Gruden will be ok with Alex.

 

I agree that Cousins doesn't throw into tight windows because he is scared he might get picked off.  And it was obvious that Gruden was extremely frustrated about that.  I just think he's deluding himself if he thinks Alex will be more willing to do it than Kirk was.  It already sounds like he is, in fact, deluding himself, based on this quote:

 

Quote

 

Washington coach Jay Gruden said earlier this week he expects Doctson to benefit from Smith’s arrival.

 

I think Josh will get more opportunities to make plays on 50-50 type balls, which is Josh’s strength,” Gruden said, via Kimberley Martin of the Washington Post. “He’s not a guy that’s going to get that five or six yards of separation right away. He’s a guy that builds up his speed. He can run. He can adjust to the ball like no other. His 41-inch vertical is documented, so that’s where he gets his separation — by leaping and adjusting to the ball.”

 

 

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9 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Why does the stat have to include completions?  It's a stat that measures how willing a QB is to throw into tight coverage.  It doesn't need to only include completions IMO.  

 

That's a fair point on guys extending plays.  I'm sure that contributes to a lower percentage of tight window throws for some of those guys.

 

 

 

I agree that Cousins doesn't throw into tight windows because he is scared he might get picked off.  And it was obvious that Gruden was extremely frustrated about that.  I just think he's deluding himself if he thinks Alex will be more willing to do it than Kirk was.  It already sounds like he is, in fact, deluding himself, based on this quote:

 

 

I don't consider deep balls tight windows. So the point about Dotson doesn't relate. Again, the nextgen stat is not complete. Were the tight window throw(s) complete? Were they intercepted, defended etc.?

Willingness to throw into tight windows says nothing about the QB. I mean look at the company of QBs Alex is in (Rogers and Brees). Not bad company. Now Kirk is in that company too, yes. But again, the problem with Kirk is his inability to extend plays while refusing (for a lack of a better word) to throw into tight windows where the play may have been designed.

 

So the play breaks down, because Kirk didn't throw the ball in that tight window. He begins to drift back or some other variation of movements, only to throw it out of bounds, take a sack, or give the ball away (check how many times Kirk threw an interception when under pressure. I think he ranks pretty poorly). You extend plays to open windows up. Gruden also mentioned that every play is not going to work the way its drawn up. Kirk struggles with that. There's nothing wrong with extending plays to make plays. Alex has been known to do that. Kirk hasn't. 

 

Kirk reminds of that carry out cashier we've all run into. You buy something for .99. So you give the cashier a $1.04 and they become stumped on what change to give you because they've been programmed to accept one dollar and give back a penny. They sit there in the window with the deer in the headlight look. When the play breaks down, we've seen that very look in Kirk's eyes.

 

On another note, the Eagle's head coach commented that he is going to hate facing Alex Smith twice a year. I'll take the validity of that comment over a Nextgen tweet any day.

Edited by joeken24
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1 minute ago, joeken24 said:

I don't consider deep balls tight windows. So the point about Dotson doesn't relate. Again, the nextgen stat is not complete. Were the tight window throw(s) complete? Were they intercepted, defended etc.? I also look at the company of QBs Alex is in (Rogers and Brees). Not bad company. Now Kirk is in that company too, yes. But again, the problem with Kirk is his inability to extend plays while refusing (for a lack of a better word) to throw into tight windows where the play may have been designed. You extend plays to open windows up which Alex is known for. There's nothing wrong with that if you make play. Alex has been know to do that. Kirk hasn't. 

 

On another note, the Eagle's head coach commented that he is going to hate facing Alex Smith twice a year. I'll take the validity of that comment over a Nextgen tweet any day.

 

It seems like you think I don't like Smith as a player.  I do.  I'm simply pointing out he is one of the most conservative QBs in the league when it comes to throwing in tight windows (which do include 50-50 balls btw), which is something Gruden has been on record as being frustrated with Cousins for not doing.

 

Yes, Alex extends plays more often than Kirk.  I'm talking specifically about tight-window throws here though.  This is something Gruden wanted to see more of from Kirk.  He won't see that with Smith, though I agree that he will probably see more easy completions than he did with Kirk because Smith will be able to make off-schedule plays and open up windows.  

 

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that Smith does not throw a high percentage of tight window balls.  I'm simply saying it's odd that we traded for a QB who is even less willing to do it than Kirk, given Gruden's vocal criticism of Kirk in this aspect.

 

By the way, if you read the article, it does include the stats you are so desperately looking for, such as completion percentage for tight window throws:

 

 

Quote

 

For years, we've heard scouting terms tossed around when discussing the worth of NFL signal-callers, but new advanced analytics are now able to quantify the concepts that have just been anecdotally assessed in the past. With the help of Next Gen Stats data brought to us by chips in every player's shoulder pads, we can now measure the best tight-window passers in the NFL. Using a composite score of several tight-window passing stats, we'll examine the top 10 players at the position when making such throws. 

 

Here are the qualifiers for the rankings:

 

» Next Gen Stats defines a "tight-window throw" as a throw where the intended receiver had less than a yard of separation from the defender.

» The average quarterback threw 18.6 percent of his passes into a tight window over the last two seasons.

» Only quarterbacks with over 200 pass attempts and seven-plus games played in 2017 qualified for the list (35 total players).

» The ranking was established by the quarterbacks among the 35 qualifiers who had the best rankings in the following three categories:

 

-- Completion rate on tight-window throws.
-- Passer rating on tight-window throws.
-- Adjusted yards per attempt on tight-window throws.

 

Adjusted yards per attempt is an efficiency metric that takes the traditional yards-per-attempt model a step further by rewarding the passer for touchdowns and heavily penalizing for interceptions. It also correlates with wins on the team level.

 

The rankings were added together to create the composite score -- for example, a player who ranked second in completion rate, fifth in passer rating and first in adjusted yards per attempt would have a composite score of 8 -- with a lower score indicating better performance. It's impossible for any stat to completely negate the influence of a quarterback's surrounding cast and measure his pure ability, but using a composite score helped alleviate those issues to a manageable degree.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000915500/article/dak-prescott-matthew-stafford-among-top-10-tightwindow-qbs

 

 

 

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I like Doctson a lot, think he will give us some great games and awesome plays but

 

I don't see him as a number one. Even if he improves, he doesn't seem to have that 'DAwg' in him. True number ones (Brown, Beckham, old Dez, Julio) play at a higher intensity than what we've seen from JD and I doubt he all of the sudden finds that aspect in his personality. Hope I'm wrong

 

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2 hours ago, MondayNightCowboyKilla89 said:

I like Doctson a lot, think he will give us some great games and awesome plays but

 

I don't see him as a number one. Even if he improves, he doesn't seem to have that 'DAwg' in him. True number ones (Brown, Beckham, old Dez, Julio) play at a higher intensity than what we've seen from JD and I doubt he all of the sudden finds that aspect in his personality. Hope I'm wrong

 

I generally agree with this.  We also haven’t seen Doctson operate in space much, and that’s a part of what makes the guys you mention so good, and where some of their intensity shows.  

 

Looking forward to seeing him work with Smith and seeing how he operates with Richardson and our other guys at full go.  I’m hoping we see him him add in-breaking routes and slants, and such to his arsenal r(outes and comebacks). 

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2 hours ago, MondayNightCowboyKilla89 said:

I like Doctson a lot, think he will give us some great games and awesome plays but

 

I don't see him as a number one. Even if he improves, he doesn't seem to have that 'DAwg' in him. True number ones (Brown, Beckham, old Dez, Julio) play at a higher intensity than what we've seen from JD and I doubt he all of the sudden finds that aspect in his personality. Hope I'm wrong

 

 

That does seem to be the case.

However I am hopeful that we can attribute that to a rookie "thinking too much" during the learning process, until his routes become more natural, fluid, smooth, and aggressive.

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9 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

It seems like you think I don't like Smith as a player.  I do.  I'm simply pointing out he is one of the most conservative QBs in the league when it comes to throwing in tight windows (which do include 50-50 balls btw), which is something Gruden has been on record as being frustrated with Cousins for not doing.

 

Yes, Alex extends plays more often than Kirk.  I'm talking specifically about tight-window throws here though.  This is something Gruden wanted to see more of from Kirk.  He won't see that with Smith, though I agree that he will probably see more easy completions than he did with Kirk because Smith will be able to make off-schedule plays and open up windows.  

 

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that Smith does not throw a high percentage of tight window balls.  I'm simply saying it's odd that we traded for a QB who is even less willing to do it than Kirk, given Gruden's vocal criticism of Kirk in this aspect.

 

By the way, if you read the article, it does include the stats you are so desperately looking for, such as completion percentage for tight window throws:

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000915500/article/dak-prescott-matthew-stafford-among-top-10-tightwindow-qbs

 

 

 

Cool.

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11 hours ago, MondayNightCowboyKilla89 said:

I like Doctson a lot, think he will give us some great games and awesome plays but

 

I don't see him as a number one. Even if he improves, he doesn't seem to have that 'DAwg' in him. True number ones (Brown, Beckham, old Dez, Julio) play at a higher intensity than what we've seen from JD and I doubt he all of the sudden finds that aspect in his personality. Hope I'm wrong

 

Now that he doesn't have such a conservative qb throwing to him...watch him explode this year..

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15 hours ago, MondayNightCowboyKilla89 said:

I like Doctson a lot, think he will give us some great games and awesome plays but

 

I don't see him as a number one. Even if he improves, he doesn't seem to have that 'DAwg' in him. True number ones (Brown, Beckham, old Dez, Julio) play at a higher intensity than what we've seen from JD and I doubt he all of the sudden finds that aspect in his personality. Hope I'm wrong

 

I agree. A DAwg is a DAwg. You can't coach. It's not a progression. It is what it is. And Doctson doesn't have it. Its cool if he makes plays next year. But the DAwg we'd like is not on this roster. At least not on offense. But ya know, there's only a few teams in the league that have a DAwg at the wide out position. Which one has equated to a SB win?

I know a DAwg at the TE position coming out in the draft. 

Edited by joeken24
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10 hours ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

Now that he doesn't have such a conservative qb throwing to him...watch him explode this year..

 

I see Smith being perhaps better for Doctson in a lot of ways. Even Gruden said it takes Doctson a while to get his speed rolling downfield but Kirk never played much off script, whereas Smith is a much better improv QB when a play doesn't work out and will scramble and Doctson has the adv at height/ jump in mostly all scenarios. Alex just doesn't throw INTs at this point but will still protect it in such scenarios while trying to make a play. Doctson is a great type of receiver for that because you can loft it up and he will go get it, Doct will move some chains off schedule this season

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