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Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

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6 hours ago, TheShredSkinz said:

Man, folks round here got Stockholm.

 

 

Well, TSS, by this time the fans should be entering the early stages of the Helsinki Syndrome. 

As in Helsinki, Sweden. 

 

Finland.

 

33475-5002.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

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13 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

So we can't talk about trade possibilities in this thread (just for the hell of it) and also talk about the future in others? 

 

 People are going to talk about various trade possibilities regardless. Fine, go ahead.

 What I'm saying is, they are banking on the idea that Cousins will even bother playing this little game by signing some tag or contract so that the FO can attempt to get something for him.

 

Why would he?

The FO all but told him ' we don't believe you're our future here, but we're gonna give you a 1 year deal that has a boatload of money in it.'

The next year, ' well, um, we still don't believe you're the man, so we're gonna do the same thing again, and wait and see.'

 

Cousins wanted to be the highest or close to highest paid QBs in the league. The FO gave him the cold shoulder on that, so that didn't set well with Cousins. And now, people are believing that Cousins will be a' stand-up' guy and sign some contract so the FO can use it as leverage, with the unsettling idea that the FO could very well screw up any deals and KC ends up here for another year, which blows up our salary cap, puts egg [ more egg ] on the face of the FO, and makes the FO an even BIGGER laughing stock.

 

The FO turned their back on Cousins a few years ago when they could have had him for far less money. The FO knows this and Cousins knows this. The 'christian' in Cousins isn't going to come out; he's not going to try and help a FO who never believed in him, he just wants to be paid a lot more money than he's worth. So, fine, let him go somewhere that will pay him the ridiculous amount of money he wants, and leave it be. Karma is a ****, trust me.

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22 minutes ago, pjfootballer said:

^^ Cousins signed the franchise tag. By rule we couldn’t negotiate with him until the season was over. 

There season was over the second they lost to the Giants.

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As a former Cousins' fan........

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Redskins should never talk to Cousins again, or even mention his name.  Anything that belongs to him should be placed in a box and put in the parking lot.  He had no intention of negotiating in good faith with this team to give us the right of first refusal.  His unwillingness to even try to hammer out a deal has now cost us 3 players (3rd round pick, Fuller, Cousins) to get an aging QB and a little cap room.  I honestly hope he ends up playing for the Bears, the Browns, or the Jets.

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14 hours ago, mistertim said:

@SkinsinparadiseI'm pretty much "meh" on the whole trade as well as the Smith vs Cousins thing. I honestly see them as about equal players. They both seem to have some of the same issues and same criticisms. I would have preferred to keep Kirk but the likely price tag I think was just too high and I really believe it is pretty apparent that he isn't very into staying here. It's probably even more apparent behind the scenes. Downside of Smith is his age and that he's a very careful QB who won't have the talent to throw to here that he had there (unless Reed is healthy and we get a very good FA WR or Doctson makes a leap) so it's hard to say how he'll adjust. Upside is he was cheaper, IMO is better at making off-schedule plays, and isn't as prone to boneheaded turnovers. 

 

To me it's basically a wash.

 

The criticisms on Alex Smith are basically he's not Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady.  He can't carry the team on his back.  He needs a a running game and weapons.  It sounds almost word for word going through it what Kirk got hit with.   And I think it brings home the Kirk criticisms to me in a funny way -- yeah Alex Smith too needs weapons.  My point is who doesn't?  It's been said on the Kirk thread a gazillion times.  If Kirk is here or Kirk isn't here.  We need to build a supporting cast.  That's how you win.

 

I also said if Kirk leaves and we go elsewhere for a veteran QB we aren't going to have all this magic cap room to go nuts in FA. Cost money to buy ANY competent QB.  So here we are.  We pay 23.5 million.  I'll put money that Kirk gets 27.5 or thereabouts.  So we saved a whopping 4 million a year which is basically a Jag type starter.  That isn't going to land you even close to one Calais Campbell type.  And they have to now look at finding a young QB and replace one of their best young defenders as a kicker to the deal.  Dumb deal and to me its not even close to a wash.

 

The only wash aspect of the deal to me is this season.  I'd take Kirk over Alex but Alex to me isn't a mile away.  But in my book you downgraded a little at QB and lost one of your best defenders.  So you got older and downgraded the defense.  The extra 4 million to play with doesn't offset Kendall Fuller.  And we lost a 3rd rounder, too. 

 

So for me its a bad deal.  But that doesn't mean I am hating on Alex Smith.  I like him.  And if we treat him with the same arguments used against Kirk -- people will be disappointed again.  The dude like any red blooded QB is likely going to stink if for example our top running back rushed for 11 yards and 1 yard a carry like what happened against Carolina in 2016.  When that happens, I am not blaming Alex Smith.  A QB is important but the dude isn't Superman where he single handily carries the team on his back.  

 

 

13 hours ago, TouchdownSkin said:

 

I agree.  We didn't get to the playoffs with Kirk, so let's pay him more.  ?

 

  I am not bailing on the team as some here look to be doing and I see it on twitter.   I've suffered through all the other dumb stuff so I have some masochist stamina in me to endure more. :ols:   However, Kirk will be the first player leaving the team that I hope lights it up. I'll be rooting for him to do it.  Not because of the Kirk thread and the arguments there.  Not because of any special affinity to Kirk where the player transcends the team.  But I want the FO to look like fools.  The only way we have a sliver of a chance for any change to come is the clown show to be exposed in a loud and embarrassing way.   How they handled the contract and losing their franchise QB is ridiculous -- they deserve to have it blown up in their face. That would be karma playing out.  And justifiably so.

 

I am ok with Alex Smith, I don't think the offense will miss many beats.  Because he's good enough.  Jay can call a good game.  And I think they will give him enough weapons.   I don't like the trade, though.  But I do think Kirk is the better QB and is ascending.  Alex has had weapons and a running game in KC.  I predict Kirk will land in a place where he has a running game.   And I think he will have a big year.  Bigger than Alex.  And younger and ascending.

 

This team doesn't have much class.  One of the bonuses with Kirk here was he exuded that.  Alex Smith is the same type of a dude.  So I'll be rooting for him hard.  But don't care for the deal. 

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2 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

As a former Cousins' fan........

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Redskins should never talk to Cousins again, or even mention his name.  Anything that belongs to him should be placed in a box and put in the parking lot.  He had no intention of negotiating in good faith with this team to give us the right of first refusal.  His unwillingness to even try to hammer out a deal has now cost us 3 players (3rd round pick, Fuller, Cousins) to get an aging QB and a little cap room.  I honestly hope he ends up playing for the Bears, the Browns, or the Jets.

I've been banging this drum for a while - prepare yourself for being painted as a Bruce Allen apologist because obviously there's no way there are two sides to this story and Cousins is such a stand up guy he can't possibly have done anything wrong. Therefore if you think he was wrong, you have to think the FO did everything right and therefore you're an idiot. That's pretty much how this goes.

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6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I also said if Kirk leaves and we go elsewhere for a veteran QB we aren't going to have all this magic cap room to go nuts in FA. Cost money to buy ANY competent QB.  So here we are.  We pay 23.5 million.  I'll put money that Kirk gets 27.5 or thereabouts.  So we saved a whopping 4 million a year which is basically a Jag type starter.  That isn't going to land you even close to one Calais Campbell type.  And they have to now look at finding a young QB and replace one of their best young defenders as a kicker to the deal.  Dumb deal and to me its not even close to a wash.

Kirk also wasn't going to sign a deal here. If he was he would have done it two years ago. Or last year when he refused to come to the table at all. Or at the end of the season when he decided he wasn't even going to speak to us until free agency. I think Kirk gets closer to $30 but he might even drop to $25 fully guaranteed or 80% guaranteed or whatever. Regardless of the differential though, we have paid a heavy price with Fuller but let's stop acting like Kirk was an option. He wasn't and he made it perfectly clear we would get absolutely no discount on him.

 

Yes the FO screwed up a few years ago and have done since then - nobody is giving them a pass for that. But Cousins has wanted out for a long time too so stop pretending the Smith deal is just about saving on the cap - it's also about getting rid of a player who patently does not want to be a Redskin.

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Looking back, it would’ve been nice if Snyder wasn’t such an insufferable douche and simply traded Cousins for SF’s 2nd overall last year. Maybe we would’ve traded back with Chi for say, their 1st and 3rd in 2017 plus a 1st and 3rd this year. Roll with Colt, get devastated by injuries and likely finish where the Giants are at 2nd overall. We’d be poised to take one of the top QB prospects with one pick while grabbing say, a Barkley or a Chubb with our other pick. We’d still have Fuller and 2picks in the 3rd and our QB of the future instead of Alex Smith, 6 picks in 2018 and a hole to fill at slot cb.

 

All of that is as likely as getting anything for Cousins at this point. The ceiling on compensation for Cousins is a comp 3rd rounder. If anybody playing this game cared to see how the tag system works, it would’ve likely saved several pages of off topic discussion from this thread.

 

oh, and on topic, this trade is terrible, so typically Snyderesque, bad damage control/mess cleanup, and I’d still rather have the pick, Fuller, and no QB at this point.

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7 minutes ago, UKskins said:

Kirk also wasn't going to sign a deal here. If he was he would have done it two years ago. Or last year when he refused to come to the table at all. Or at the end of the season when he decided he wasn't even going to speak to us until free agency. I think Kirk gets closer to $30 but he might even drop to $25 fully guaranteed or 80% guaranteed or whatever. Regardless of the differential though, we have paid a heavy price with Fuller but let's stop acting like Kirk was an option. He wasn't and he made it perfectly clear we would get absolutely no discount on him.

 

Yes the FO screwed up a few years ago and have done since then - nobody is giving them a pass for that. But Cousins has wanted out for a long time too so stop pretending the Smith deal is just about saving on the cap - it's also about getting rid of a player who patently does not want to be a Redskin.

This is the point I keep trying to drive home with others I've talked to... Kirk's gone, he has been.  I honestly don't think $27.5 mil per year would have kept him here... the transition tag is $28 mil so I believe that regarding the Redskins contract options for him... that's the floor.  $28 mil would have been his STARTING point knowing that we were going to have to pay him that regardless if we wanted to keep him.  I think he wanted to test free agency, and get bid on.  He wanted US to be one of those bidders, and he wanted to control the situation.  I think he would have been willing to sign here as a free agent if it was the best situation for him.  I also believe it wouldn't have been, in his eyes, the best situation.  Denver, Arizona, Jacksonville (unless you believe they actually believe in Bortles), and Minnesota all would have presented a 'better' situation personally and professionally to him.   To try that would have been a major gamble, and the odds of him 'choosing' to come back here would be minimal.  

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21 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

As a former Cousins' fan........

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Redskins should never talk to Cousins again, or even mention his name.  Anything that belongs to him should be placed in a box and put in the parking lot.  He had no intention of negotiating in good faith with this team to give us the right of first refusal.  His unwillingness to even try to hammer out a deal has now cost us 3 players (3rd round pick, Fuller, Cousins) to get an aging QB and a little cap room.  I honestly hope he ends up playing for the Bears, the Browns, or the Jets.

HTTR baby!  Gimme some true Redskins! Guys that want to be at this awesome classy franchise!  Get out the way the Hail bus is coming baby! Hail victory!

22 minutes ago, UKskins said:

I've been banging this drum for a while - prepare yourself for being painted as a Bruce Allen apologist because obviously there's no way there are two sides to this story and Cousins is such a stand up guy he can't possibly have done anything wrong. Therefore if you think he was wrong, you have to think the FO did everything right and therefore you're an idiot. That's pretty much how this goes.

Nailed it.

 

It simply makes you feel better to believe that Kirk is somehow a villain.  Even though there is nothing to suggest that's ever been the case with him in his career.  Meanwhile, Bruce is a well documented douchebag for his entire career.  Things that make you go hmmmm...

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I completely expect this to fall on deaf ears, because this side of the story always does.  The "Yeah, but..." crew will be in full force if they read it, but it's the best explanation I've seen that doesn't take sides and simply breaks it down.

 

----------------

 

 

As hard as the organization might have tried, Washington could never quite let go of its first impression of Cousins after he landed in their lap as a fourth-round pick in 2012. Owner Dan Snyder and general manager Bruce Allen eventually decided, with some trepidation, that Cousins was worth a long-term investment, offering him a contract that would've made him one of the NFL's highest-paid players. But Cousins, an avid reader who loves researching how successful people run their businesses, could never quite get over one simple reality: The team could have had him for cheap, back in 2015, and it wasn't interested.

That might seem counterintuitive on the surface. Really? He wishes Washington had signed him for less money when it had the chance, instead of paying him more once he'd proven to the team he was a good, if not yet great, NFL quarterback?

In short, yes. That's an accurate summary of how Cousins' brain works. Mike Shanahan, Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay all thought, at various points, that Cousins might be the next Drew Brees, and they worked hard to persuade him of as much. "I remember Kyle saying, 'Just keep playing. I think you've got a chance to be a Drew Brees-type player someday,' " Cousins told me in November. "I kept saying, 'Wow. I appreciate the belief and confidence. I want to go prove you right.' Kyle said, 'You don't have to prove me right. I know I'm right.' "

Washington's front office could never quite see it, though, and that created a tension between the two sides that could never truly be resolved. For Cousins, more important than getting paid is feeling as if he plays for an organization that knows what it's doing. If Washington couldn't grasp his potential once it was clear he, and not Robert Griffin III, was going to be the starter, how could he ever trust them to find the right pieces to put around him? If you can't recognize the value of an asset until it has matured, all you end up doing is overpaying for everything. Anyone can buy Apple stock when it's $165 a share. It's the financial wizard who recognizes its value at $8 a share who wins in the end.

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5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

you can't recognize the value of an asset until it has matured, all you end up doing is overpaying for everything. Anyone can buy Apple stock when it's $165 a share. It's the financial wizard who recognizes its value at $8 a share who wins in the end.

 

Snyder was bowling with rg3 while shanny trying to convince him that KC might be special

 

This was a perfectly written article.  Snyder is a straight up dumbass.  Nothing will change

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7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I completely expect this to fall on deaf ears, because this side of the story always does.  The "Yeah, but..." crew will be in full force if they read it, but it's the best explanation I've seen that doesn't take sides and simply breaks it down.

 

----------------

 

 

As hard as the organization might have tried, Washington could never quite let go of its first impression of Cousins ...

 

First, where did you get this? Could you add a link or source?

 

Second, this is a great summation of what is wrong with the Redskins FO regardless of whether you think Cousins is good or bad. Thanks for sharing!

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Just now, zoony said:

 

Snyder was bowling with rg3 while shanny trying to convince him that KC might be special

 

This was a perfectly written article.  Snyder is a straight up dumbass.  Nothing will change

Nah man, Kirk is just a douche putting a banana in the tailpipe of the Hail bus when it's en route to the Super Bowl.:ols:

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I'm not sure that Kirk's request of 19m/year was actually "cheap" It seems so now, but was it then? Here is where 19 would have put him. Remember too, that the first half of that year, he was pretty bad. The last eight games he was fantastic. 

 

I'd argue, based on the below, that 19m/year was certainly not an outrageous request, but it was a premium. He was already valuing himself among the top five QB salaries in the league. I am not sure how that would be offering a "cheap" contract. It still would have been a premium contract. In hindsight, it was a no brainer, but we've also seen a lot of one year flame-outs at QB from Jay Fielder, to Foles who looked amazing got the super-contract and fell to Earth. I don't really blame the FO at balking at making Cousins the fifth highest paid QB after only eight games (esp. when he was spotty his first eight games and really inconsistent in all his starts in previous years). I do, however, think the Redskins screwed up royally by not getting this sewn up last year. 

 

In my book, the Redskins and Cousins made a bet. The Redskins said, "I dare you to do it again." and Kirk did. The Redskins then welched on the bet. After Kirk won, they should not have low-balled him, but come out with a strong first bid. I think that did damage. I also think Allen's nasty PR letter probably sealed the deal. Allen was stupid enough to publish a "burn the bridge" letter with a player still on the team that he was supposed to try to re-sign the next year. So, the blame lies mostly on Allen's side.


But cheap? Never. Kirk's side was never interested in cheap or fair.

 

 

1

Aaron Rodgers

$22M

12

2

Matt Ryan

$20.75M

6

3

Joe Flacco

$20.1M

10

4

Drew Brees

$20M

7

5

Peyton Manning

$19.2M

12

6

Colin Kaepernick

$19M

8

7

Jay Cutler

$18.1M

5

8

Tony Romo

$18M

12

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16 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Snyder was bowling with rg3 while shanny trying to convince him that KC might be special

 

This was a perfectly written article.  Snyder is a straight up dumbass.  Nothing will change

 

It’s recognizable in all his business dealings, not just the way he runs the Redskins. He has no formal education and it shows.

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Signing a player that you plan to or already have placed a tag on is never cheap.

 

But one should expect a competent FO to have foresight and do the right thing.  Especially considering the offer only included 44M in guarantees and you had already applied 20 in a tag and expressed you'd do it again at 24 the next season.  So basically if the guy flames out, you can bail in two years like they are doing now.  Only they would have had an option to pay him 19M for three more seasons in that scenario.  Not to mention built a much better relationship for the next time around.  By considering the Redskins didn't even respond to that offer, I can't help but laugh at folks that think Kirk is a prick for not responding to the last one.  

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32 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Nah man, Kirk is just a douche putting a banana in the tailpipe of the Hail bus when it's en route to the Super Bowl.:ols:

Right on cue - we have the Kirk fans only being able to see one side of the story and making dumb condescending statements to try and paint anyone who speaks against him into the exact corner I've been talking about that is clearly false.

 

The FO is bad. Not even dumpster fire bad. I visited a trash dump in Gambia once (long story) which was basically a giant field of trash that had no organisation whatsoever and kept getting lit on fire by the sun. That's the level of bad I see the FO. NOBODY is trying to say they didn't get every bit of this wrong at every turn.

 

However, it says in the exact article you posted, Kirk couldn't let go of the fact we didn't love him in 2015/2016 and therefore would never do a deal with us. In what way does that mean Kirk wanted to be here, the FO didn't try hard enough to keep him etc? Regardless of whether you think that makes him a petty child or not (depends whether your so in love with Kirk you refuse to accept he could do anything wrong I guess), that says that whatever happened, Kirk did not want to be a Redskin long term so the tag etc was pretty much the only way we've had him for as long as we have.

 

The people who are saying Kirk had a role in this are not excusing the FO, they are saying there are two sides to this coin and whilst the FO screwed up spectacularly initially, Kirk wasn't in love with the Redskins and didn't want to be here. Which if you look at it objectively is exactly what his actions indicate. There's no problem with that, it's his choice, and I don't pass any judgement on him for that - but his willingness to suck the money up with no intention of doing a long term deal here has contributed just as much to the mess we got ourselves in as the FO's willingness to be the dumbass franchise that let him do it. He bet on himself and won big, but he has also wasted 2 years that this organisation could have been grooming somebody else. The FO are idiots for letting him do it, but he's played the game too - he isn't a victim here.

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7 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Snyder was bowling with rg3 while shanny trying to convince him that KC might be special

 

This was a perfectly written article.  Snyder is a straight up dumbass.  Nothing will change

 

8 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

First, where did you get this? Could you add a link or source?

 

Second, this is a great summation of what is wrong with the Redskins FO regardless of whether you think Cousins is good or bad. Thanks for sharing!

Allen blew it with Cousins when he had the chance to sign him earlier.  He definitely did not understand the rise in QB salaries and is inept at judging talent.  He wasted too many years "building a team" and is incapable of doing what the Eagles did in 2 years.  The Cousin situation was on Bruce so trading for Smith was his only option at trying to save face since he alienated Kirk....but Fuller?  Are you kidding me?  A 3rd rd pick was enough since Smith was gone from KC anyway and if not , we have McCoy and trade our 1st and 3rd to move up for a QB in the draft...but giving Fuller away also???  Shoot ourselves in the foot trading away an up and coming inexpensive stud on defense where we need to improve..... Fire Bruce Allen now!fuller.PNG.773478b406f9a19c1c92fc26dd87b69e.PNG

 

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1 hour ago, sempre_victrix said:

As a former Cousins' fan........

 

As far as I'm concerned, the Redskins should never talk to Cousins again, or even mention his name.  Anything that belongs to him should be placed in a box and put in the parking lot.  He had no intention of negotiating in good faith with this team to give us the right of first refusal.  His unwillingness to even try to hammer out a deal has now cost us 3 players (3rd round pick, Fuller, Cousins) to get an aging QB and a little cap room.  I honestly hope he ends up playing for the Bears, the Browns, or the Jets.

 

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1 minute ago, rabidskin said:

 

Allen blew it with Cousins when he had the chance to sign him earlier.  He definitely did not understand the rise in QB salaries and is inept at judging talent.  

 

I agree. I think one of Allen's big  faults is he is cheap. It can be very expensive to be cheap.

 

The other issue is that I think this became a matter of "winning" to him. I think, but don't know, that Allen thought he would lose face and lose outright if he signed Kirk to a market deal. He had to find a way to win the contract after losing the negotiation three times. It became an ego thing for both parties. Allen wanted to come up on top and Kirk wanted to make Allen pay. At the end, neither side was willing even to enter the dance floor. 

 

We should have at least got one last dance-off. The thing which riles me is that the Redskins owed Cousins a big offer. They bet against him twice and he proved himself twice. The Front Office failed to man up and pay off their bet.

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So I'm hoping someone can help me understand something a little more clearly... so if the Redskins put whatever tag it is on Kirk I don't know which tag and he signs it it will allow us to trade him to a team for a ham sandwich and a Snickers bar correct?... if the Redskins approach Kirk with this tag and he says no I do not and will not sign it, then the Redskins can't do anything but watch him ride off into the sunset in March correct?

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3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Signing a player that you plan to or already have placed a tag on is never cheap.

 

But one would should expect a competent FO to have foresight and do the right thing.  Especially considering the offer only included 44M in guarantees and you had already applied 20 in a tag and expressed you'd do it again at 24 the next season.  So basically if the guy flames out, you can bail in two years like they are doing now.  Only they would have had an option to pay him 19M for three more seasons in that scenario.  Not to mention built a much better relationship for the next time around.  By considering the Redskins didn't even respond to that offer, I can't help but laugh at folks that think Kirk is a prick for not responding to the last one.  

I don't know that all of us in support of this move, are fully in support of the front office, or do we believe that Kirk walking is even a knock on him.   I don't blame him for a second for wanting to not only get the highest value for his services possible, but also find the most stable and comfortable situation for him and his family.  The front office hosed this whole situation, and the primary reason he's not a part of this franchise fall straight on Allen's shoulders.  That all said, we're at an crossroads here where what has happened has happened, and we need to better the football team.  

 

I don't blame Kirk one bit for not wanting to be here... that fact does not acquit the front office and make him a villian, it just means we clearly messed it up, and instead of sitting back and hoping it works out, we needed to make a move to continue to further the team.  Is the front office to blame?  YES.  Does Kirk have a part of this situation?  YES.  DO i have a problem with how Kirk is handling this... absolutely not.   

 

2 minutes ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

So I'm hoping someone can help me understand something a little more clearly... so if the Redskins put whatever tag it is on Kirk I don't know which tag and he signs it it will allow us to trade him to a team for a ham sandwich and a Snickers bar correct?... if the Redskins approach Kirk with this tag and he says no I do not and will not sign it, then the Redskins can't do anything but watch him ride off into the sunset in March correct?

there is a lot of risk involved in a sign and trade, and if we let him walk in march we get a 3rd round pick back... 

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