No Excuses Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, Zguy28 said: The bottom line takeaway I see is for both parties, this means more voters. GOP painted the gov shutdown as the fault of Democrats and when the DACA recipients become citizens they will all vote Democrat. Round and round we go, playing with our lives for the power. What do you get out of such a heartless, cynical view? I assume because the GOP sold itself out to an embarrassment like Trump, you think it’s only appropriate to label everyone else the same. We’ve had Republican presidents in our near past who cared about this issue as much as Democrats. Who tried to do the right thing. The only thing that’s changed is that your party shifted so far to the right, that you now project it’s ugly cynical view of politics onto everyone. Your own cynicism isn’t enough. Everyone else must partake in it too. I get it though. Acknowledging that Democrats are fighting this issue because it’s the morally right thing to do means you have to admit that there is a higher ground that conservatives are ceding to liberals. And that can’t be done at any cost obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zguy28 said: The bottom line takeaway I see is for both parties, this means more voters. GOP painted the gov shutdown as the fault of Democrats and when the DACA recipients become citizens they will all vote Democrat. Round and round we go, playing with our lives for the power. There are only 800,000 DACA recipients. That doesn't change the demography of the electorate but it is a large enough number to be a humanitarian debacle if we suddenly started deporting them en masse. Congressional Republicans don't want DACA recipients deported either, that's why they were pissed at Trump for rescinding Obama's EO that gave them legal status for residency. Trump passed the buck to Congressional Republicans. And then worst part of all is that Trump had a deal with Democrats in hand that would have begun resolving the issue and avoided crisis on all fronts! They were going to give him however much money he wanted for his stupid wall! And Trump reneged on it at the last minute and left both parties in the Senate scrambling ahead of a shutdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, No Excuses said: What do you get out of such a heartless, cynical view? I assume because the GOP sold itself out to an embarrassment like Trump, you think it’s only appropriate to label everyone else the same. We’ve had Republican presidents in our near past who cared about this issue as much as Democrats. Who tried to do the right thing. The only thing that’s changed is that your party shifted so far to the right, that you now project it’s ugly cynical view of politics onto everyone. Your own cynicism isn’t enough. Everyone else must partake in it too. I get it though. Acknowledging that Democrats are fighting this issue because it’s the morally right thing to do means you have to admit that there is a higher ground that conservatives are ceding to liberals. And that can’t be done at any cost obviously. They are all the same bruh. Be honest with yourself. I do understand the democrats side of this so I'm not talking about this in particular. But there are like 6 politicians that are actually in it to make the country a better place. At this point being cynical of everything anyone in government does should be not only accepted but expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: There are only 800,000 DACA recipients. That doesn't change the demography of the electorate but it is a large enough number to be a humanitarian debacle if we suddenly started deporting them en masse. Congressional Republicans don't want DACA recipients deported either, that's why they were pissed at Trump for rescinding Obama's EO that gave them legal status for residency. Trump passed the buck to Congressional Republicans. And then worst part of all is that Trump had a deal with Democrats in hand that would have begun resolving the issue and avoided crisis on all fronts! They were going to give him however much money he wanted for his stupid wall! And Trump reneged on it at the last minute and left both parties in the Senate scrambling ahead of a shutdown. The immigration issue comes up every 6 years it seems and goes absolutely no where because of the militant right. Bipartisan agreement in 2006. Went nowhere. Bipartisan agreement in 2013. Went nowhere. Bipartisan agreement in 2018. Likely headed nowhere. Each time, the Steve King/Jeff Sessions faction refuses to make a single concession and gets everything nuked. And then dopey “centrists” (really just conservatives in denial) complain about both sides because attributing fault to the GOP is just too difficult. There are Republicans and Democrats who have been trying to fix this issue in good faith for over a decade. And each time Republican leadership succumbs to pressure from the far right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Llevron said: They are all the same bruh. Be honest with yourself. I do understand the democrats side of this so I'm not talking about this in particular. But there are like 6 politicians that are actually in it to make the country a better place. At this point being cynical of everything anyone in government does should be not only accepted but expected. You need to look into the mirror and see your party. They are very, very different. On energy, environment, health care, education, safety nets, etc, Being cynical is stupid. Being skeptical is smart. The GOP is nowhere near the same entity as the Dems. Our country has suffered way too much because of this false narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, No Excuses said: What do you get out of such a heartless, cynical view? I assume because the GOP sold itself out to an embarrassment like Trump, you think it’s only appropriate to label everyone else the same. We’ve had Republican presidents in our near past who cared about this issue as much as Democrats. Who tried to do the right thing. The only thing that’s changed is that your party shifted so far to the right, that you now project it’s ugly cynical view of politics onto everyone. Your own cynicism isn’t enough. Everyone else must partake in it too. I get it though. Acknowledging that Democrats are fighting this issue because it’s the morally right thing to do means you have to admit that there is a higher ground that conservatives are ceding to liberals. And that can’t be done at any cost obviously. I'm sure that there are Democrats party members who care. I'm sure there are GOP members who care. I care. I believe that all Dreamers should be given a realistic path to citizenship. But I'm tired of those who pretend to care like the McConnell's and Pelosi's who target the poor or those who are disenfranchised. I'm tired of those who show just enough, who care just enough, and give just enough, to keep the poor dependent on them. This is what I see. Call it cynical, its reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Llevron said: They are all the same bruh. Be honest with yourself. I do understand the democrats side of this so I'm not talking about this in particular. But there are like 6 politicians that are actually in it to make the country a better place. At this point being cynical of everything anyone in government does should be not only accepted but expected. Politics is a reflection of the people you help to elect. Both parties in my opinion fairly accurately reflect the views of their base. The current GOP is almost an exact representation of how conservatives view America. Democrats are an almost exact representation of how liberals view America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, tshile said: This is pretty much what I think is going to happen. Dems will be mad that McConnell might have technically fulfilled his promise, but in reality lied to them. Republicans will say held up his deal, dems are weak on security and/or just want a repeat of the 80's, etc. I will remain unsurprised and angry at both sides for sucking yet again, despite our resident liberals cries of botherism and being unfairly criticized for wahing. And we'll be right back where we have been. We will be right back at where we are because the militant right always nukes immigration reform. Didn’t have to wait long this time: There is bipartisan work done by moderate Republicans and Democrats every six years on this issue. And each time, the far right nukes it all. And then we get posts blaming both sides. It’s ****ing exhausting and it completely lets the far right go unchecked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, No Excuses said: There are Republicans and Democrats who have been trying to fix this issue in good faith for over a decade. And each time Republican leadership succumbs to pressure from the far right. I hope you're wrong but you're probably right. I'm cautiously optimistic we'll get something done on the DACA issue. If not a path to citizenship, a legal residency. I can't see Republicans being so soulless as to allow a humanitarian crisis to unfold on their watch. If for no other reason than it's an election year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I hope you're wrong but you're probably right. I'm cautiously optimistic we'll get something done on the DACA issue. If not a path to citizenship, a legal residency. I can't see Republicans being so soulless as to allow a humanitarian crisis to unfold on their watch. If for no other reason than it's an election year. Have you seen pictures of Puerto Rico? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bay Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I'm a contractor that doesn't get paid when the government shuts down (no back pay either). I also think that DREAMers should have a viable way of staying in the country. Silly me, it would be nice if both of these things could be worked out without the drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 43 minutes ago, Zguy28 said: Have you seen pictures of Puerto Rico? You think Republicans are responsible for that? I'm not arguing with you, I'm just surprised to see you point that out as their fault because I know you tend to lean conservative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I think that Zguy has shown himself to be a compassionate human being no matter what his politics might be, and is justifiably upset at the situation in Puerto Rico. I see no conflict there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, No Excuses said: There is bipartisan work done by moderate Republicans and Democrats every six years on this issue. And each time, the far right nukes it all. And then we get posts blaming both sides. It’s ****ing exhausting and it completely lets the far right go unchecked. That statement is not necessarily as bad as it looks. Scalise is acknowledging that the deadline to act on the DACA issue is in March, not the February deadline the Senate agreed to in their compromise. That means he's still acknowledge a deadline and the need to act on the issue. A right wing deal doesn't preclude resolution of the DACA issue. Right now Democrats are going to have to take what we can get on immigration. We don't control a single part of the government. Probably going to have to settle for some kind of legal residency for DACA recipients and a whole lot of border security and wall money in return. An otherwise bad deal that still protects DACA recipients is a win for Democrats considering our lack of leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I think it's a cruel joke to think that i was taught to believe the best way to get votes is to appeal to what voters want. You know, represent the wishes of your constituents. How ****ing naive. This ****ing country is run by criminals. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: That statement is not necessarily as bad as it looks. Scalise is acknowledging that the deadline to act on the DACA issue is in March, not the February deadline the Senate agreed to in their compromise. That means he's still acknowledge a deadline and the need to act on the issue. A right wing deal doesn't preclude resolution of the DACA issue. Right now Democrats are going to have to take what we can get on immigration. We don't control a single part of the government. Probably going to have to settle for some kind of legal residency for DACA recipients and a whole lot of border security and wall money in return. An otherwise bad deal that still protects DACA recipients is a win for Democrats considering our lack of leverage. Citizenship or no deal. No backing down here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Has anyone considered that if Dreamers are deported that we lose 800k people paying into Social Security? This is what Dems need to key in on. Repubs are weak on Social Security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, No Excuses said: We will be right back at where we are because the militant right always nukes immigration reform. Didn’t have to wait long this time: There is bipartisan work done by moderate Republicans and Democrats every six years on this issue. And each time, the far right nukes it all. And then we get posts blaming both sides. It’s ****ing exhausting and it completely lets the far right go unchecked. Scalise is a lying POS. He knows it would easily pass the House with over 300 votes. What he is saying is that the majority of the GOP wouldn't vote for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: That statement is not necessarily as bad as it looks. Scalise is acknowledging that the deadline to act on the DACA issue is in March, not the February deadline the Senate agreed to in their compromise. That means he's still acknowledge a deadline and the need to act on the issue. A right wing deal doesn't preclude resolution of the DACA issue. Right now Democrats are going to have to take what we can get on immigration. We don't control a single part of the government. Probably going to have to settle for some kind of legal residency for DACA recipients and a whole lot of border security and wall money in return. An otherwise bad deal that still protects DACA recipients is a win for Democrats considering our lack of leverage. You have to read the language carefully when the hard right says “no amnesty”. This includes any legal protections. This has been the far rights mantra every time immigration comes up. Bipartisan agreements fail because any kind of legal protection is unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Hersh said: Scalise is a lying POS. He knows it would easily pass the House with over 300 votes. What he is saying is that the majority of the GOP wouldn't vote for it. This absolutely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: You think Republicans are responsible for that? I'm not arguing with you, I'm just surprised to see you point that out as their fault because I know you tend to lean conservative. I don't lean conservative, I am in most ways. They are the one's in control of two branches of government. Nobody is responsible for the damage, but the complete catastrophe of the cleanup is a disaster. I don't know why they aren't the 51st state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee99 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, No Excuses said: We will be right back at where we are because the militant right always nukes immigration reform. Didn’t have to wait long this time: There is bipartisan work done by moderate Republicans and Democrats every six years on this issue. And each time, the far right nukes it all. And then we get posts blaming both sides. It’s ****ing exhausting and it completely lets the far right go unchecked. Nah, bruh, waiting for tshile to come in here with his holier than thou both sides bs.....In the meantime, people saying Democrats caved can kiss my ass.....what the hell can you do when you don't control any branch of the government, a self-manufactured crisis when Trump killed the DACA instead of leaving them there while the politicians figure out the bull****....but hey let the moron in chief try to force the issue, with people's lives in jeopardy.......I bet you his great grandfather would be proud. Also, I guess it's too bad most Democrats have a ****ing heart about not wanting the government serving the people shut down for too long, while Republicans could give two ****s with prepared robocalls already, blaming Democrats with shutting the govt because of illegal immigrants. I keep saying judgement day will come and all those will be judged by God himself for the way they treated their fellow man.....a current Soldier, a Baptist and a Democrat here preparing for the next shutdown Feb 8.....signing out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Why will there be a shutdown February 8? One - Democrats had no end game, and immigration is poised to be a big election issue. May help them. Two -Trump is not going to deport the DACA kids. Dems will take a wall fo dreamer protection (probably no path to citizenship though). Three - there is still the spending cap issue. Four - I hope the moderate Senators are still talking, because that is how cooler heads will prevail. Doing this Schumer-Ryan-McConnell-WH agreements is too complex. People complaining about the "cave" need to realize that shutting down govt hurts and doing so will make people upset with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee99 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, Fergasun said: Why will there be a shutdown February 8? One - Democrats had no end game, and immigration is poised to be a big election issue. May help them. Two -Trump is not going to deport the DACA kids. Dems will take a wall fo dreamer protection (probably no path to citizenship though). Three - there is still the spending cap issue. Four - I hope the moderate Senators are still talking, because that is how cooler heads will prevail. Doing this Schumer-Ryan-McConnell-WH agreements is too complex. People complaining about the "cave" need to realize that shutting down govt hurts and doing so will make people upset with them. This..... cant blame Schumer on this that shut down could go past one day.... then you start hurting people that need govt services...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Hersh said: Citizenship or no deal. No backing down here. Making no deal means they could be subject to deportation starting in March. Protecting them from this is the first concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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