twa Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, PeterMP said: So every time an animal or tumble weed crosses the border, you are going to deploy a rapid response team? And when they dig under where the sensors are? We have better sensors than that now and you forget the drones, good training program Digging is only hard to detect in certain areas I'm certainly fine with going after employers and enablers, fine em and recoup costs add they could simplify things and just enforce laws and streamline actual deportation.....but a big ass wall seems easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 7 hours ago, PeterMP said: If they don't come over the border, they will go around (in boats) or under whatever you have there. Or they'll do what half of illegal immigrants are already doing - enter the country legally and just don't leave. Maybe the reason why the Dems haven't made a proposal to "secure the southern border" is because it's a bottomless money pit that can never be solved. It's like trying to come up with a plan for how to end terrorism by invading countries in the Middle East. I agree with you. It sure feels to me like the smart way to reduce illegal immigration is to reduce illegal employment. I keep reading people who claim that supposedly, Dem administrations tend to target employers, and Rep ones ignore them and go for border troops and deporting individual people. (But I haven't really seen any authoritative facts to back that narrative up). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 11 hours ago, twa said: We have better sensors than that now and you forget the drones, good training program Digging is only hard to detect in certain areas I'm certainly fine with going after employers and enablers, fine em and recoup costs add they could simplify things and just enforce laws and streamline actual deportation.....but a big ass wall seems easier Okay, but running drones isn't cheap and even they have limitations (weather, seeing only top down, etc) and as Larry has proper pointed out it does nothing for what a large number (estimates range from 25%-50% of illegal immigrants) of people coming in legally and then just not leaving when they are supposed to. The wall (and in general border security at that level) is a worthless boondoggle. (I also don't understand how Democrats can't win this: 1. It is stupid. 2. He said Mexico would pay for it. (Any time anybody mentioned funding "the wall", I'd say something like, Donald Trump promised that Mexico would pay for the wall. So far he's put together no plan for Mexico to pay for the wall. I don't think the majority of the people want to pay $X billion for something that isn't really going to cover the whole border or stop the flow of illegal immigrants, and it isn't what Donald Trump promised so I can't vote for it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Someone mentioned that the best way to fund the wall would be to do it through a Kickstarter or social fundraiser. Let everyone who believes in it chip in. Hell, this way Mexico could chip in too if Trump can get them to pay for the wall. Imagine the good that could be done with 30 billion dollars. I think the only reason the President really wants it is he views it as the ultimate Trump Tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: Okay, but running drones isn't cheap and even they have limitations (weather, seeing top down, etc). Weather etc. and as Larry has proper pointed out it does nothing for what a large number (estimates range from 25%-50% of illegal immigrants) of people coming in legally and then just not leaving when they are supposed to. The wall (and in general border security at that level) is a worthless boondoggle. (I also don't understand how Democrats can't win this: 1. It is stupid. 2. He said Mexico would pay for it. (Any time anybody mentioned funding "the wall", I'd say something like, Donald Trump promised that Mexico would pay for the wall. So far he's put together no plan for Mexico to pay for the wall. I don't think the majority of the people want to pay $X billion for something that isn't really going to cover the whole border or stop the flow of illegal immigrants, and it isn't what Donald Trump promised so I can't vote for it.) Drones getting cheaper and more autonomous every day letting in millions of illegals and allowing overstaying visas is rather costly as well I'm fine with just turning them back and rooting out those here w/o a wall, but there seems a concerted effort not to do that despite the promises made at the other amnesty bills. Maybe we can legalize weed and tax it severely to fund the effort.....Dems love that ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 so basically @PeterMP your contribution to the conversation is: you can't solve the problem we can't dry up the jobs, a wall wont work, and monitoring the border won't work because you have an endless list of ways around anything someone mentions. good deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, tshile said: so basically @PeterMP your contribution to the conversation is: you can't solve the problem we can't dry up the jobs, a wall wont work, and monitoring the border won't work because you have an endless list of ways around anything someone mentions. good deal That's true of a great many problems. There aren't any simplistic solutions. (Although I'll point out: I don't believe he (or anyone else) has said that we can't at least reduce the employment of illegals. And he's absolutely stated that he thinks it's the avenue that would get the best return on the money.) We're not going to eliminate drugs, or murder, or poverty, or terrorism, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee99 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Yeah, figured that's how tshile would see it, but 30 billion on a wall sounds like a solid plan.... I think it's been mentioned a couple of times in this thread.... Stronger e verify, continue to deport illegal immigrants, penalize businesses that hire illegals and bolster bolder patrol personnel with more funds..... Not 30 billion on a ****ing wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, Larry said: That's true of a great many problems. There aren't any simplistic solutions. (Although I'll point out: I don't believe he (or anyone else) has said that we can't at least reduce the employment of illegals. And he's absolutely stated that he thinks it's the avenue that would get the best return on the money.) We're not going to eliminate drugs, or murder, or poverty, or terrorism, either. right, but that doesn't mean we don't do anything. solving major issues in a diverse society of 300+ million people is complex and there are no silver bullets. you can pretty much do what he did with every single issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, tshile said: right, but that doesn't mean we don't do anything. solving major issues in a diverse society of 300+ million people is complex and there are no silver bullets. you can pretty much do what he did with every single issue. By "what he did", do you mean "point out basic facts, and also point out what he believes is the best place to attack the problem"? Or what you tried to claim he did (and are trying to claim, again)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Larry said: (Although I'll point out: I don't believe he (or anyone else) has said that we can't at least reduce the employment of illegals. 11 hours ago, PeterMP said: The way to stop illegal immigration is to dry up the jobs and that means going after people/companies that hire illegals. And that will never happen ... Maybe the issue here is absolutes vs working towards limiting the issue... i don't really know how to parse all the comments in this context. it kinda seems he says what you say he didn't say though 1 minute ago, Larry said: By "what he did", do you mean "point out basic facts, and also point out what he believes is the best place to attack the problem"? Or what you tried to claim he did (and are trying to claim, again)? no, i mean exactly what he did: point out the flaws in every single solution then imply because of that you can't/shouldn't do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Maybe we should deploy these: https://newatlas.com/korea-dodamm-super-aegis-autonomos-robot-gun-turret/17198/ we could layer it with something that collapses tunnels i mean haven't you people played tower defense games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 37 minutes ago, tshile said: so basically @PeterMP your contribution to the conversation is: you can't solve the problem we can't dry up the jobs, a wall wont work, and monitoring the border won't work because you have an endless list of ways around anything someone mentions. good deal We can certainly talk about reducing illegal immigration. It is difficult to imagine a system at the border that does much to decrease illegal immigration when much of the illegal immigration is already coming into the country through other means and even more could. Our true "border" is simply too big and there would be too many ways of getting around (physically under or by boat, or practically by coming in legally and then just staying) whatever you did along Mexico unless you regularly put large amounts of money into it for it to do much good. (Trump is asking for a $30 billion one shot to build his wall. What twa is asking for is going to be a continual costs that will pretty quickly exceed Trump's $30 billion.) A wall/monitoring will work if you are willing to go full scale East Germany with a wall, papers for people that can be randomly checked, and a police force to check them, etc. I don't think that's a philosophically attractive solution to most people, and it is certainly expensive and a continual costs. The more you go that route the more effective it will be, but the more it will cost. Absolutely drying up the jobs would work, but so far we don't seem to have the political will to make it work (and I don't think it will happen any time soon). (And realistically, I don't think (many) Trump supporters actually want to control or decrease the "problem". I live in a pretty rural area. The farmers in the area are mostly Trump supporters and so are many of the longer term residents. I have a field right behind my house and the farmer that runs it put out big Trump signs up in his fields and my neighbor is a big Republican and had a Trump sign out in his yard. But there are a lot of brown people that fill those fields every summer and spring to do the work, and I'd bet a lot of money not all of them are here legally. Every year that farmer is getting those workers and nobody ever calls INS, boycotts the local farm stands, or complains about the price of produce.) I'm being realistic as to the political implications of the system. The "right" is promising its voters something they really never plan to achieve (controlling illegal immigration), and they do it by promising them something that they know won't do much good (e.g. building a wall), while ignoring the thing that would (drying up the jobs) because they know if their voters ever latched onto whatever would work it would be a disaster for them as a party (and actually likely bad for the whole country) as many of their big donors would abandon them. The GOP ignores what would work for "solutions" that aren't actually going to do much good (especially not given the costs) as a distraction to their voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, PeterMP said: We can certainly talk about reducing illegal immigration. Isn't that what we're doing? That was kind of the problem I had with your posts - it assumed the only acceptable goal was completely stopping it. If you take that approach to any of the number of problems you'll never come up with a solution, you're asking for a silver bullet. This applies to health care, drugs, education.... none of our major problems are tackled that way. they're all tackled with a layer of solutions each with the understanding that none are perfect, they're all expensive, and in the end there will always be abuse/work arounds/waste/etc. we have a lot of options, but no one seems to be willing to may consider combining all/most of them. i don't disagree with you about trumps supporters motives though... but that problem isn't unique to them, nor the topic of immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, tshile said: Isn't that what we're doing? That was kind of the problem I had with your posts - it assumed the only acceptable goal was completely stopping it. If you take that approach to any of the number of problems you'll never come up with a solution, you're asking for a silver bullet. This applies to health care, drugs, education.... none of our major problems are tackled that way. they're all tackled with a layer of solutions each with the understanding that none are perfect, they're all expensive, and in the end there will always be abuse/work arounds/waste/etc. we have a lot of options, but no one seems to be willing to may consider combining all/most of them. i don't disagree with you about trumps supporters motives though... but that problem isn't unique to them, nor the topic of immigration. That's not what I was doing at all. I don't think what twa is suggesting is really going to slow down illegal immigration. My point isn't that they are not prefect. My point is that they are (relatively) easily avoided to the point that I suspect the benefit will actually be negligible. They aren't not perfect. They are essentially worthless if you don't think we are already doing a good job. My initial question was what does a "secure" border look like because Republicans are saying they want a secure border to do anything on DACA (not a more secure border), and the history of the problem is we've continually upped the border security and we still have Republicans claiming the border isn't secure and we still have lots of illegal immigration. Even twa's request have largely been met (we're already using drones (and have been and before that were using helicopters) and we have sensors, the only think I think we are missing is a 24/7 ready to respond rapid response teams and we might even have those, but I guess it depends on how you define that.). If anybody is playing the "perfect" card here, to me it is the Republicans requiring perfection (knowing it can't be achieved and knowing they aren't even trying to go about it in a good way) before acting on DACA. (I'll also point out that for other things like education cost of changes improve performance that hopefully will pay off economically. That isn't likely the case for illegal immigration. We're putting money into something (border security) that will likely have minimal and possibly negative pay off.) https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21579828-spending-billions-more-fences-and-drones-will-do-more-harm-good-secure-enough The US-Mexico border Secure enough Going back to where the conversation started, I'd like to see some of these Republicans that are saying the border must be "secure" to go forward with immigration reform address what does a secure border look like to them and how do think that will affect illegal immigration. With respect to twa's request, we are already doing most of that and we aren't having much of an effect. (Now, I guess twa can come back and say we need more drones, more sensors, and the rapid response team will make a big difference, but my point is I doubt it. We've seen vast improvements in border security since Reagan's amnesty and based on the admissions of the Republicans it hasn't done nearly enough.) Realistically, the border is more secure now then ever. We have more border control people, we have more fencing/wall, and are using more technology (e.g. drones and sensors) then ever. And it still isn't enough to make the border "secure". What else should we do (and is it actually going to make the border "secure")? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 My hope if the next year is that we at ES can all stop using the terms "illegals" and "chain migration". The first dehumanizes actual people. The 2nd is just a dumb term invented to sound important. Also, we really need to tear down Liberty Island if we aren't going to believe in what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 @twa Doing a search for border patrol and rapid response brings up this: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Border Patrol Special Operations Group.pdf We're using drones. We have sensors. That's even based on 2007. I'll bet we even have more capability now in terms of rapid response (government programs don't tend to shrink). Can we declare the border secure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Those that get travel visas and such are screened (at least somewhat) and finger printing/ retina scanning can be required to aid ID if needed later. Adjusting policy on deportment and employment is something I'm open to, but somehow folk we have deported multiple times return or never actually leave the country......combine that with Mexico enabling folk doing so Any suggestions there Petermp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: My hope if the next year is that we at ES can all stop using the terms "illegals" and "chain migration". The first dehumanizes actual people. The 2nd is just a dumb term invented to sound important. Also, we really need to tear down Liberty Island if we aren't going to believe in what it says. If certain folk would stop harboring 'undocumented' folk others might be inclined to be more diplomatic. Maybe a first step would be cooperation with INS when someone is detained for a crime....or is crime a dehumanizing term as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 26 minutes ago, PeterMP said: @twa Doing a search for border patrol and rapid response brings up this: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Border Patrol Special Operations Group.pdf We're using drones. We have sensors. That's even based on 2007. I'll bet we even have more capability now in terms of rapid response (government programs don't tend to shrink). Can we declare the border secure? Care to tell me how many crossed illegally this year? Can you even tell me how many are here? Can you tell me how many crossed this year and are detained and allowed to stay? No, it does not seem secure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 12 minutes ago, twa said: Care to tell me how many crossed illegally this year? Can you even tell me how many are here? Can you tell me how many crossed this year and are detained and allowed to stay? No, it does not seem secure So drones, sensors, and a rapid response team does not equal border security. Does that mean you withdraw your previous post? In order for the border to be secure I have to be able to tell you exactly how many people crossed it illegally? @tshile this my point. The Republicans are asking for perfection (which cannot be achieved without huge expenses that are well beyond anything they are actually proposing to fix the problem) before moving on immigration reform. We'll spend billions of dollars building the wall and whatever else they are proposing at this time, and there will still be illegal immigration and the Republicans will say the border is not secure and they can't do immigration reform until it is. Over the last 30 years, we have massively upped security at the Mexican border, and the Republicans have continually cried for more because the problem hasn't been eliminated. (And they'll still ignore the solution is to go after the jobs that are bringing people here anyway because they don't really want to fix the issue (because many of their big donors certainly don't and even part of their base doesn't), but they do want it as an election issue.)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 45 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: My hope if the next year is that we at ES can all stop using the terms "illegals" and "chain migration". Which term would you prefer be used, for someone who is doing something that's, you know, illegal? And I think you'd better get used to hearing the phrase "chain migration". It's going to get thrown around just as much as "anchor baby". (And with pretty similar motivations and morality). When's the last time the right wing spin machine invented a trigger phrase to demonize something that's actually a moral position, (in this case, that our nation ought to put a value on allowing families to be together), and then stopped pulling the trigger they just installed? Edit:. Y'know, it just occurred to me that here on ES, we actually have a place to discuss immigration. (And this isn't it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, PeterMP said: So drones, sensors, and a rapid response team does not equal border security. Does that mean you withdraw your previous post? In order for the border to be secure I have to be able to tell you exactly how many people crossed it illegally? My previous post was on supplemental wall security....as you know I'm rather well aware of the assets we have in use since my state has to fund much of it. add Make some real effort towards limiting employment and services for illegals...I've been waiting for a longtime does the fence around the WH stop folk?.......why have it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 57 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: My hope if the next year is that we at ES can all stop using the terms "illegals" It describes their state perfectly. It also makes a clear distinction between legal immigration and illegal immigration (which dems like to lump together because it it makes it easier to beat down the character of the person you're debating/arguing with) It's only dehumanizing if you mean for it to be. 59 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Also, we really need to tear down Liberty Island if we aren't going to believe in what it says. This is also tiring and boring. the united states has changed a lot since then. furthermore, you can view our current system as seriously flawed without it meaning you don't want to accept immigrants or that you're going back on the statue of liberty (if such a thing even mattered to begin with) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, Larry said: Edit:. Y'know, it just occurred to me that here on ES, we actually have a place to discuss immigration. (And this isn't it). Then Dems shouldn't tie it to a govt shutdown.....as I mentioned earlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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