2018 Free Agency Database - (Signed: WILLIAMS - McPhee - Scandrick - P-Rich) - (Lauvao, Bergstrom, Nsehke, Taylor, Z. Brown and Quick re-signed)

[skinny21]

@markmills67He can play DT too.  Does seem like an Allen signing.  

 

I’d be fine with the move depending on who else we add, though my preference is Logan.  

[bobandweave]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I didn't bother with the low picks.  Vinny used to accumulate them, too.  It was a 4th for JC -- not in the same draft, or even the next one but 2 years later.  So in draft value that's the same as a 6th rounder.  They also got a 5th for AH. They traded away if I recall a 5th for Carrier. And yeah they did get a 6th for McNabb.

 

Whether it was trading up for RG3, McNabb, J. Brown none of it obviously worked out well.  My point is as I've said in another thread, I cannot recall ONE trade during Vinny or Bruce's era where trading high draft picks (3rd-1st) for veteran players ended up well.  I guess Brunell wasn't terrible  but a third rounder for a guy who had one good season, "meh".

 

Man I spent 30 minutes last night writing a reply to your question only to see my damn phone die before I could submit for your review. So to make things simple, you trade for players where it makes sense to. 

 

Highlighted - If Alex goes on to win 10 games this season or while he's here do you consider that to be ending up "well". You can't be moving the goal post here. Since they just traded for a veteran again, what is your definition of that trade working out well? To me its simple. If Alex Smith wins 10 games or gets them to the playoffs then I don't give a damn they gave up a third for him. I consider that a cheap cost. I don't think they would be getting a QB in the third round who could do that for them. That's my definition of valuing that trade. What is yours since you asked the question? 

 

Worrying about what happened 8 years ago is silly with McNabb. That's ancient history. I view the NFL in 3 year segments. Not 8 year segments. Your talking three segments ago. Why 3 years you may wonder? Because when a team looks at itself in that viewpoint, three year windows, things come into focus better for what to do in free agency, what to do in the draft, who is important and who is not, and what trades to make. You can't do that with longer segments of time. Things that transpired in 2010 do not matter in 2018 even slightly. Players are drafted and leave 4 years later. The average length of contract a FA is kept is 3 years. When you adjust your focus to 3 years things become more clear and the silly crap they did 8 years ago fades.

 

Its not anyone can do this perfect, mistakes are going to happen to everyone. The Rams gave up a 2nd round pick for Sammy Watkins and are about to lose him a year later.  The Patriots gave up a draft pick for Mike Gillesslee. Like this is not the only team that trades for Vets and it doesn't work out. That doesn't mean for a second that it always won't work out or shouldn't be done. 

 

 

 

 

[bobandweave]

2 hours ago, srtman04 said:

Oh my God, Allen continues his war path to sabbatage the Redskins if he lets Zach Brown, Kendal Fuller, Cousins, and Breedland go in the same damn off-eason.  Unbelievable how ****ing incompetent this guy is......and the stupid ****ing organization that no one wants to play for.  

 

I'm okay if this happens as long as Bruce doesn't go out and sign other teams players. If he does that I swear it will be the worst management of a front office ever. 

 

Zach will net a 5th

Breeland will net a 4th

Cousins will net a 3rd

 

In comp picks if they just show some damn restraint and avoid OPP.

 

I know Bruce is an idiot and will do exactly what I say here not to do and that's why he needs to be fired. Unless he's finally learned how to manage a team which I highly highly doubt

 

 

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

Little harsh, and we have to see who they bring in, but... wouldn’t it be something if the FO allows the defense go the way our pass catchers did last year?  Sure hope that’s not the case.  

 

It looks like it to me.

 

Pass rush is needed by every team out there, and emphasized in the draft every year by every team out there. The last time Junior played a full season he racked up 10 sacks. The last time Trent played a full season he racked up 9 sacks. Those types of players will get paid to jump teams. They are rare and they are valuable.

 

And not one peep about keeping either of them so far so I expect them to both be gone. Which imo will be a stupid asinine move for this team to make and done only so that Bruce can sign other teams players which hurts them. 

 

Factor in the loss of both Breeland and Fuller and not only have they opened up huge holes at pass rush they now have huge issues with coverage. 

 

And losing Brown on top and you have a clear mass exit of defensive talent like that of the Cowboys last season. At least they were smart and got 4 draft picks for losing all those players this year. Now it's our turn and we can either get those free picks or we can get scrubs and no picks.

 

Such an easy decision how this should go. Re-sign as many of our guys on Defense that they can. Use the draft on the offensive issues - Guard, WR, RB, etc. Go into the 2019 draft with 11 picks. 

 

Its so simple and straight forward that I know for sure they won't do that because Bruce is an idiot and Dan only keeps him around because they are buddies.  Instead they will sign other teams offensive players ruining our comp picks, they will almost the entire Defense go keeping 30 year olds like Norman and Kerrigan ruining the rest of their careers, and go into the draft picking defensive players and not give Alex the tools he needs. 

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Nsekhe and Grant would be my guess, no chance of either not being here this season.

Very possible, 74.  

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, markmills67 said:

A player who fits the so called type of player the Skins want, younger players finishing there rookie contracts. And one player I've seen on another Skins site is Beau Allen NT currently with the eagle's, 3/4m per year should be enough I think. And I would release McClain to make room. I mentioned on here couple of months ago that I would like the Skins to go after him. Hungry younger player who is a fulltime NT as well, Leave more cap room to go for LG and WR.

 

HTTR 

I think JP Finley maybe Tandler had his name mentioned on their site.  I wouldn't mind.  He's been a rotational player and seems to be a good run stuffer so yes, if we signed him over Logan it would make sense and save money for Richardson or Robinson.  Makes sense.

[skinny21]

@bobandweave

I agree with you on the face of it, but the fact is, we have to also be smart about how much we pay a backup OLB, we have to trust the draft pipeline - transitioning from Breeland to Moreau - and we made a big offer to Brown (much more than he was looking for last year apparently.  

 

So, your scenario of ‘let’s just re-sign our own and get comp picks’ is akin to the ‘let’s trade back in the 1st’.  In both scenarios, it’s a two sided affair.  We’re also not in a great position to outbid other teams.  

 

Personally, I think the FO is in a bind - they felt like they were in win now mode because the roster was close, and now they’ve upped the ante by trading for Smith and losing Fuller/the 3rd rounder.   That’s not factoring in the idea that Allen (and maybe Jay) probably feels like he needs to have a lot of success this year to keep his job.  So, while shooting for comp picks is a smart way to go, it’s a long term move that (mostly) runs counter to their short term goals.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

Highlighted - If Alex goes on to win 10 games this season or while he's here do you consider that to be ending up "well". You can't be moving the goal post here. Since they just traded for a veteran again, what is your definition of that trade working out well? To me its simple. If Alex Smith wins 10 games or gets them to the playoffs then I don't give a damn they gave up a third for him.

 

I didn't say a thing in that post about the Alex Smith trade.  I talked about trading high draft picks (to me 1st-4th) for a veteran, which one has worked out so far?  It's clear as heck that the majority of them bombed -- I can argue that ALL of them were failures to different degrees.  But if people want to split hairs and say hey most were bad, but one or two weren't awful, OK on that.   No argument IMO its been a failed policy here -- only question left is how bad -- crazy awful level of bad or just plain bad.    Anyway you cut it its been on the aggregate bad. 

 

  My point isn't that teams can't make good trades where they give up high picks.  See Howie Roseman who also knows how to acquire high picks.  I am saying that's not been the case with Vinny or Bruce.  Bruce is still here so the point is relevant. 

 

As for Alex Smith, we can't of course pat ourselves in the back and say job well done until it plays out.  My issue with that trade wasn't the trade in a vacuum but the OTHER options on the table comparing tit for tat.  But I don't want to open that can of worms again because those points for my taste tend to go way off track when we debate it. 

 

Judging by my posts and yours, ironically I think I like Alex Smith better than you do and I am more anxious about surrounding him with weapons to make him and by extension the trade look good -- than you seem to be.   I am always team driven.  Would I enjoy Alex failing?  Not at all.  He's a classy dude and a good player.  I got no problem at all that they are driven (according to Finlay among others) to make the trade look good by surrounding him with weapons.  They should.  I think EVERY QB needs weapons. 

 

There is always a nice rationalization for every trade.  Heck I supported plenty of them.  Look Jason Campbell isn't working out, McNabb is a pro bowler.  We can at least count on a good QB for 2-3 years.  J. Brown was a good LT.  Heck he got hurt and lost his job to a young guy in NO.  We have a hole at RT.  Good move to get the dude! 

 

Yeah maybe a 3rd and 4th for Brandon Lloyd seems steep -- but did you hear Al Saunders say he has the best hands he ever saw?  He's young and emerging.   I recall all the narratives -- just about every deal had a narrative that had some logic to it.  But they haven't panned out.  Only one arguably is Brunell and to me that was barely a passing grade at best considering he had one good year and that's really it. 

[Unbias]

This draft is supposed to be deep at linebacker, safety and running back. I'm not a fan of heading into the draft with obvious holes, but at the end of the day if we plug spots with cheaper rookies and are willing to work through their learning curve then it's at least a long term strategy that is designed for better days. 

[steve09ru]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

I'm okay if this happens as long as Bruce doesn't go out and sign other teams players. If he does that I swear it will be the worst management of a front office ever. 

 

Zach will net a 5th

Breeland will net a 4th

Cousins will net a 3rd

 

In comp picks if they just show some damn restraint and avoid OPP.

 

I know Bruce is an idiot and will do exactly what I say here not to do and that's why he needs to be fired. Unless he's finally learned how to manage a team which I highly highly doubt

Why are you so hard up on these damn comp picks?  They are end of the round picks and nothing guaranteed and the risk is higher on these panning out than having a solid contributor from FA.  There are MLBs/ILBs out there in FA that would be much better gets than having a pick in the 170s.  Also, not to mention these picks aren't until 2019 so the value is even worse to not do something in FA for the potential of a 4th or 5th next year.

[CTskin]

3 hours ago, srtman04 said:

Oh my God, Allen continues his war path to sabbatage the Redskins if he lets Zach Brown, Kendal Fuller, Cousins, and Breedland go in the same damn off-eason.  Unbelievable how ****ing incompetent this guy is......and the stupid ****ing organization that no one wants to play for.  

I'm still bitter about losing Fuller in that trade... He was a top 3 untradeable guy for me.

 

But I'm hearing that Breeland and Brown want close to $10M/yr each. That's crazy money for flawed players. You can count on Bree to play well in only a handful of games and then play absolutely atrociously in another handful. Brown is a run stuffer in a passing league. Sure I'd like each back, but not at anywhere near the price they're looking for. Gimme them comp picks and cap space!

[JoggingGod]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

I'm okay if this happens as long as Bruce doesn't go out and sign other teams players. If he does that I swear it will be the worst management of a front office ever. 

 

Zach will net a 5th

Breeland will net a 4th

Cousins will net a 3rd

 

In comp picks if they just show some damn restraint and avoid OPP.

 

I know Bruce is an idiot and will do exactly what I say here not to do and that's why he needs to be fired. Unless he's finally learned how to manage a team which I highly highly doubt

 

 

 

It looks like it to me.

 

Pass rush is needed by every team out there, and emphasized in the draft every year by every team out there. The last time Junior played a full season he racked up 10 sacks. The last time Trent played a full season he racked up 9 sacks. Those types of players will get paid to jump teams. They are rare and they are valuable.

 

And not one peep about keeping either of them so far so I expect them to both be gone. Which imo will be a stupid asinine move for this team to make and done only so that Bruce can sign other teams players which hurts them. 

 

Factor in the loss of both Breeland and Fuller and not only have they opened up huge holes at pass rush they now have huge issues with coverage. 

 

And losing Brown on top and you have a clear mass exit of defensive talent like that of the Cowboys last season. At least they were smart and got 4 draft picks for losing all those players this year. Now it's our turn and we can either get those free picks or we can get scrubs and no picks.

 

Such an easy decision how this should go. Re-sign as many of our guys on Defense that they can. Use the draft on the offensive issues - Guard, WR, RB, etc. Go into the 2019 draft with 11 picks. 

 

Its so simple and straight forward that I know for sure they won't do that because Bruce is an idiot and Dan only keeps him around because they are buddies.  Instead they will sign other teams offensive players ruining our comp picks, they will almost the entire Defense go keeping 30 year olds like Norman and Kerrigan ruining the rest of their careers, and go into the draft picking defensive players and not give Alex the tools he needs. 

Great idea. Don’t sign players that can help you just so you can get extra 5th rounders. Comp picks aren’t valuable resources. They’re a consolation prize.

[Darth Tater]

In some ways you could say Joe Washington was a failed trade, a number 2 for a guy who gave us a little more than 3 years and only one that was probably worth a number 2 (we arguably got lucky that Riggo came back and gave us 4 quality years with another OK one).  Washington was a very good COP/third down back but so were several guys we paid a lot less for in terms of draft picks. The pick we traded for him would have gone for Grimm so we would have had a number one in 1982 (although I cannot find anyone who I'd have wanted over Joe Washington).

 

That is a huge part of what you need to analyze when you trade picks for players. You've got to look not only at the pick given up but any other issue that arise indirectly and if you could have had your guy anyway.  The 3rd for Brunell was arguably unnecessary as we probably just could have signed him after the Jags cut him. We don't trade our third and we could have gotten Chris Cooley with our natural pick.  That trade arguably highly impacted our need to overspend pick wise for JC.

 

Even Dave Butz cost us two number ones and a number two.  Was that worth it?

 

Giving Miami our number one for Joe T. seemed to be one of the few high picks for players trade that all of us would be down with.

 

 

[CTskin]

8 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

Why are you so hard up on these damn comp picks?  They are end of the round picks and nothing guaranteed and the risk is higher on these panning out than having a solid contributor from FA.  There are MLBs/ILBs out there in FA that would be much better gets than having a pick in the 170s.  Also, not to mention these picks aren't until 2019 so the value is even worse to not do something in FA for the potential of a 4th or 5th next year.

4th rounders and later:

2017- Montae, Davis, Sprinkle, Roullier, Davis, JHC

2016- Ionnidis (Fuller at the end of round 3)

2015- Crowder, Spaight, Kyshon, Reiter

 

Landing a 3rd, 4th, and 5th in next year's draft would give us a high likelihood of landing at least one starter. Not to mention, we would be freeing up cap space by not overpaying our exting players. We're rarely in the comp pick game, but this year we are, which is why it's more of a discussion than in year's passed.

[CTskin]

11 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Great idea. Don’t sign players that can help you just so you can get extra 5th rounders. Comp picks aren’t valuable resources. They’re a consolation prize.

For the right price, absolutely sign them up. but read one of my previous posts. If Brown and Bree are looking for $9-$10M+/yr then we'd be fools to pay them. Just like Kirk's asking price, I don't want to be the sucker team paying it. If they realize that they aren't special (I know Brown's speed is special, but he's one of the worst coverage ILBs in the game) and that they'd take $6M-$7M/yr then I'm in. If not, give me the $20M in cap saving and possibly a comp pick or two.

[Skinsinparadise]

Niles PaulVerified account @NilesP_

Stayed down, played my role, & always put the team before myself. **** wild, but I don’t even know why I’m acting surprised

 

 

1.  

   Gregg Rosenthal‏Verified account @greggrosenthal 37m37 minutes ago

   More

   Lot of teams ripe to be in “screw it, we need to spend mode:” Cowboys, Redskins, Saints, Vikings, 49ers, Broncos, Bears, Jets, Raiders ...

[NickyJ]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Niles PaulVerified account @NilesP_

Stayed down, played my role, & always put the team before myself. **** wild, but I don’t even know why I’m acting surprised

Something up with Niles? What's he supposed to act surprised about?

[steve09ru]

1 hour ago, CTskin said:

4th rounders and later:

2017- Montae, Davis, Sprinkle, Roullier, Davis, JHC

2016- Ionnidis (Fuller at the end of round 3)

2015- Crowder, Spaight, Kyshon, Reiter

 

Landing a 3rd, 4th, and 5th in next year's draft would give us a high likelihood of landing at least one starter. Not to mention, we would be freeing up cap space by not overpaying our exting players. We're rarely in the comp pick game, but this year we are, which is why it's more of a discussion than in year's passed.

Outside of Crowder, what have any of them done? 

 

Spaight is a backup and special teamer, Kyshon is out of the league, Reiter was PS and got picked up by the Browns and played part of 1 game. 

 

Fuller was not drafted during the comp. range, Ioannidis was a good get. 

 

2017 draft - only one worth mentioning at the moment is Roullier.

 

You can find a much better proven player than anyone on these draft lists in FA.

 

Also, 'high likelihood of landing at least one starter' is certainly reaching considering we have 2 starters who earned their spot (not going in because of injury) out of 18 picks during those 3 years but you think we'd find at least 1 from 3 extra comp picks?

[OVCChairman]

56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Niles PaulVerified account @NilesP_

Stayed down, played my role, & always put the team before myself. **** wild, but I don’t even know why I’m acting surprised

 

 

1.  

   Gregg Rosenthal‏Verified account @greggrosenthal 37m37 minutes ago

   More

   Lot of teams ripe to be in “screw it, we need to spend mode:” Cowboys, Redskins, Saints, Vikings, 49ers, Broncos, Bears, Jets, Raiders ...

Is he upset?   Assuming this means he's not going to get signed.... 

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I didn't bother with the low picks.  Vinny used to accumulate them, too.  It was a 4th for JC -- not in the same draft, or even the next one but 2 years later.  So in draft value that's the same as a 6th rounder.  They also got a 5th for AH. They traded away if I recall a 5th for Carrier. And yeah they did get a 6th for McNabb.

 

Whether it was trading up for RG3, McNabb, J. Brown none of it obviously worked out well.  My point is as I've said in another thread, I cannot recall ONE trade during Vinny or Bruce's era where trading high draft picks (3rd-1st) for veteran players ended up well.  I guess Brunell wasn't terrible  but a third rounder for a guy who had one good season, "meh".

I'm really not going to waste a lot of energy defending Bruce, and especially not Vinny, because as I said, both seem to be somewhere on the spectrum of incompetent.  

 

I guess when I look at it over the last 8 years, I don't see a real "approach" of trading away draft picks for players.  It happened here and there, most notably for Griffin, but it doesn't seem to be the going-in approach to acquiring players, as it was under Vinny.  

 

And while not perfect, the hit rate has improved somewhat.  We now have a "good" roster, but very few difference makers.  Before, we had a few former difference makers who cost a lot of money and nothing else...

[Skinsinparadise]

Fifty Gut Blog and D.C liked

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet 4m4 minutes ago

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#Seahawks CB Richard Sherman has told teammates goodbye over the past 24 hours, sources say, and that he won’t be on the team. Those close to him say nothing is set in stone and there has been no official word. But clearly bears watching.

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm really not going to waste a lot of energy defending Bruce, and especially not Vinny, because as I said, both seem to be somewhere on the spectrum of incompetent.  

 

I guess when I look at it over the last 8 years, I don't see a real "approach" of trading away draft picks for players.  It happened here and there, most notably for Griffin, but it doesn't seem to be the going-in approach to acquiring players, as it was under Vinny.  

 

And while not perfect, the hit rate has improved somewhat.  We now have a "good" roster, but very few difference makers.  Before, we had a few former difference makers who cost a lot of money and nothing else...

 

In the numbers of picks traded away -- we've given away plenty under Bruce's reign.  Not as much as vinny but this isn't some major sea change.   We've gone from awful on that front to below average.  As for the roster, I get what you are trying to say but it has nothing to do with my point.  I meant my point exactly like I said it name the trade where a high draft pick trade (especially for a veteran) that's been a big winner here -- whether its Bruce or Vinny?

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

That is a huge part of what you need to analyze when you trade picks for players. You've got to look not only at the pick given up but any other issue that arise indirectly and if you could have had your guy anyway.  The 3rd for Brunell was arguably unnecessary as we probably just could have signed him after the Jags cut him. We don't trade our third and we could have gotten Chris Cooley with our natural pick.  That trade arguably highly impacted our need to overspend pick wise for JC.

 

Yeah, we traded the 04 3rd for Brunell (like you said, almost certainly unnecessary) and then traded an 05 2nd to get a (later) 3rd back to take Cooley. Then, in 05 we traded our 06 1st (and possibly the 4th too) in the Campbell deal to make up the value of the 2nd we didn't have.

 

You really can't hold Brunell or his trade value accountable for that chain of moves. But it was a bad move that ended up being even more expensive with time.

[Skinsinparadise]

wow, what a D line.  As I talked about in a post today, when Howie Roseman trades I presume its smart, his track record while not perfect is good.

 

More

BREAKING: Seahawks Trading DE Michael Bennett To Eagles http://bit.ly/2FkrSMX 

 

 

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet 2m2 minutes ago

More

And her it is: The #Seahawks have traded DL Michael Bennett and a 7th to the #Eagles in exchange a 5th rounder and a player, sources said. (@JosinaAnderson on it first).

[CTskin]

57 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

Outside of Crowder, what have any of them done? 

 

Spaight is a backup and special teamer, Kyshon is out of the league, Reiter was PS and got picked up by the Browns and played part of 1 game. 

 

Fuller was not drafted during the comp. range, Ioannidis was a good get. 

 

2017 draft - only one worth mentioning at the moment is Roullier.

 

You can find a much better proven player than anyone on these draft lists in FA.

 

Also, 'high likelihood of landing at least one starter' is certainly reaching considering we have 2 starters who earned their spot (not going in because of injury) out of 18 picks during those 3 years but you think we'd find at least 1 from 3 extra comp picks?

So, you and I view draft picks differently. I absolutely believe that we would land a starter out of an extra 3rd, 4th, and 5th draft pick. I don't think many would disagree.

 

Spaight played well last year and may very well be our starter next year. Injuries previously kept him down.

Kyshon was our starter and all of us had high hopes until the injury. You can't discount the find him because of a freak injury.

Roullier will most likely be our starting C this year.

Montae is our starting FS. Kid's a beast.

JHC is the nickel tweener that Su'a couldn't be. 

Ionnidis is obviously very good.

The jury's still out about Davis and Sprinkle as late round skill position players rarely blossom in their rookie year. 

 

I just don't comprehend how you're discounting mid-round draft picks the way that you are. Go back a couple more years and you'll find Kirk, Breeland, Thompson, Alf... Read up amigo, there's plenty of talent available after the first couple of rounds.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

wow, what a D line.  As I talked about in a post today, when Howie Roseman trades I presume its smart, his track record while not perfect is good.

 

More

BREAKING: Seahawks Trading DE Michael Bennett To Eagles http://bit.ly/2FkrSMX 

 

 

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet 2m2 minutes ago

More

And her it is: The #Seahawks have traded DL Michael Bennett and a 7th to the #Eagles in exchange a 5th rounder and a player, sources said. (@JosinaAnderson on it first).

Holy hell

[fordranger76]

Massive cuts have to come with this latest Eagles move. If I am looking at it right they are roughly 18 million over the cap.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, CTskin said:

So, you and I view draft picks differently. I absolutely believe that we would land a starter out of an extra 3rd, 4th, and 5th draft pick. I don't think many would disagree.

 

 

As I was telling Bobweave in my post to him, its a tough point to explain because its a grey one and can be taken if different directions -- if you take my point out of context.  That's what you are doing here -- and i know its not on purpose.  So let me clarify.

 

I LOVE keeping draft picks.  (I just wrote a whole bunch of posts about how I hate trading draft picks)

 

But If I have major FA needs, I am not letting a future comp pick preclude me from signing said impact FA to address that need especially if he's young.

 

While late round draft picks can bring impact players.  For me I am not going to rely on them in advance to address a major need.