The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[HigSkin]

Didn't see this posted but interesting...

 

 

[goskins10]

4 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Didn't see this posted but interesting...

Main Quote:

4 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Recent information suggests that Kyle Smith was disconcerted with the amount of credit Scot McCloughan received during his tenure here.

It was suggested Bruce/Dan went ahead with the firing to appease Smith and his staff. Does this change your perspective of Bruce? #Redskins

 

For me, no it does not change my perspective of Bruce. It shows just how ineffective he is as a manager. Also, I would be surprised if this was the only reason they fired Scot. Just used it as another way to hide behind someone else for their poor decisions. Dan and Bruce love to find scapegoats. 

 

If true though, it does make me more wary of Kyle Smith. Seems a bit petty. 

[Reaper Skins]

Seems more likely Kyle Smith might be the next guy who is ready to move on and Bruce found himself a chance at a new scapegoat.  The spin has already started.  "we're not losing a promising up and comer, we're cutting out a guy who wasn't a team player, even though no one has ever heard him labeled as not a team player until right now" 

 

Has Bruce ever taken responsibility for ANYTHING negative?

 

"Who do fans want to replace me with?  Kyle?  Oh, here's a random nugget that will paint him in a bad light that was somehow kept hidden for 2 years until right now..."

[bakedtater1]

Just now, Reaper Skins said:

 

 

Has Bruce ever taken responsibility for ANYTHING negative?

This is what I was just thinking...I don't recall him doing so..how pathetic he is.

[dballer]

2 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said:

Seems more likely Kyle Smith is the next one who might move on and Bruce found himself a chance at a new scapegoat.  The spin has already started.  "we're not losing a promising up and comer, we're cutting out a guy who wasn't a team player, even though no one has ever heard him labeled as not a team player till right now" 

 

Has Bruce ever taken responsibility for ANYTHING negative?

 

Yeh i think Bruce must have heard the chants for Kyle Smith to take his job...

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Since when has this George Carmi guy  been known to break any sort of news?

 

When you’re George Carmi, you need to say more than “recent information suggests”.

[mike42]

On 1/24/2019 at 10:20 AM, wunderhill said:

I stand corrected, it must have been because Dan loved what he was telling him. He was reaching out to the fans, he was trying to bring respectability to at least some of the "entire organization".  So, if Dan wouldn't allow someone to handle a portion of the organization, what makes you think he will let someone handle the entire thing, oh wait..he has and does..his name is Bruce Allen. 

One other thing. if we had an owner that would speak to the fans and explain why certain people were let go or the direction the organization wants to go we wouldn't have to speculate. 

So why bother speculating anyway? Something to talk about in the off season? I don't understand.

 

I really don't care hearing the reason why this employee was fired which is probably more professional to keep it behind closed doors. Maybe its me, I only want to see the solution on resolving a issue. Will it make a difference if Dan or Bruce speaks publicly about any issue? Not to me. No drama needed. Just fix the issue.

 

And you're right, Snyder has been willing to let others run the show for better or worse , so it's not illogical to suggest him hire a consultant on a short time basis. To be fair, Snyder has been willing to try different things and take new ideas into consideration.

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Since when has this George Carmi guy  been known to break any sort of news?

 

When you’re George Carmi, you need to say more than “recent information suggests”.

He is just a fan. Not a reporter so he does not know squat.

 

I think what he is doing is extrapolating from Finlay who commented on 106.7 recently that scouts in the building at the time including Kyle did not love all the over the top attention and credit Scot would get from the media some of which was about work the scouts did as opposed to Scot.

[bakedtater1]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He is just a fan. Not a reporter so he does not know squat.

 

I think what he is doing is extrapolating from Finlay who commented on 106.7 recently that scouts in the building at the time including Kyle did not love all the over the top attention and credit Scot would get from the media some of which was about work the scouts did as opposed to Scot.

Ya..this is like me saying Jared Taylor reporting I have insight on Alex Smith's career ..right..right?!!?

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He is just a fan. Not a reporter so he does not know squat.

 

I think what he is doing is extrapolating from Finlay who commented on 106.7 recently that scouts in the building at the time including Kyle did not love all the over the top attention and credit Scot would get from the media some of which was about work the scouts did as opposed to Scot.

Thats interesting. And this is the first I'm hearing of this, but if you remember,  my speculation was always about Scot and the scouts vs Bruce and Scot. Hence Mr work a room and listen to everybody - Doug. 

[Peregrine]

Random speculation from an interview where nobody said that, then posed as actual insider information deceitfully.

 

When someone you've never heard of comes out years later with information no one has ever heard before, you can almost surely believe its a lie at best.

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Thats interesting. And this is the first I'm hearing of this, but if you remember,  my speculation was always about Scot and the scouts vs Bruce and Scot. Hence Mr work a room and listen to everybody - Doug. 

 

The point though from Finlay and I've heard him say this multiple times never delved into an idea that Scot wouldn't listen.  Scot had the reputation of being a good guy - even Cooley who is friends with Bruce and got embroiled in the whole thing by talking about Scot's drinking on one of his shows -- said Scot is a really good dude.   I've seen it first hand myself he comes off as a great guy. 

 

The issue apparently was that Scot was so ballyhooed by the media and fans that some people in the building were envious about all the attention he got for it.  The fact that Kyle was in that group actually to me is a strike against him.  To me that stuff comes with the turf.  The boss gets the credit typically and blame because they make the call.  For example, Scot is often killed for the Doctson pick but I heard multiple times Sean McVay was the dude standing on the table for Doctson.  Regardless, Scot made the call so if he's good or not good, its on him.

 

The narrative is similar on Lafemina.  Chris Russell and Grant Paulsen was told last year for example by their source in the FO that they aren't do Lafemina favors by pumping him up and talking about how things are better now versus the past -- because Bruce gets steaming mad about that type of thing.

 

Supposedly, Bruce hates that fans-media see other people in that buildings as saviors.  He knows his reputation is bad with the media and fans but apparently he goes ape when someone new in the building is extolled as the guy who will fix Bruce's mistakes so to speak.   That's apparently his button. 

 

Now the Bruce-Scot dynamic was more complicated because on that one there were issues with Scot's drinking and antics supposedly and Scot was Bruce's hire.  So initially Bruce wanted to protect Scot in part because Bruce himself was under the gun behind the scenes for the hire -- this according to Russell.   

 

The fact that we are even discussing the front office in this way to me shows how screwed up the culture is there.  Seems like its a third grade-ego driven environment.  I've heard multiple times including from a guy who worked there who posted on twitter that the environment in the FO is like the show Survivor. Pick your factions, tear the competition down and try to survive. 

[XtremeFan55]

5 hours ago, HigSkin said:

Didn't see this posted but interesting...

 

 

“Recent information...”

 

Tony Wylie up to his dirty tricks again.  You have to hold this guy accountable also.  Bruce and Tony need to go.

 

Anytime you see ‘anonymous sources’ think Tony Wylie.   This is what he is hired for and given one of those bogus ‘Senior Vice President’ titles.  Just a guy willing to sell his soul to do the dirty work  SMH

[XtremeFan55]

Washington Redskin game attendance facts:

 

2018.....27th in league....61,000 average

 

2017....6th in league....75,000 average

 

2016...3rd in league....78,000 average.

 

2012....RG3 rookie year....3rd in league....79,650 average.

 

Make any case you want but my logic sees the loss of Kirk Cousins as being the final straw to break the back of the fans.   We all saw during that debacle how inept and petty the FO was and the losing of a franchise quarterback caused fans to give up.

 

We won’t be able to match the Chargers 32,000 average because they play in a soccer stadium but lets see if we can get his below 50,000 to send a huge message to Snyder that we won’t take it anymore.  

 

Boycott the games next year.

 

Please.

 

as a side note....the 61,000 average last year doesn’t take into account that a vast majority of seats were occupied by fans of visiting teams.  

[NickyJ]

5 hours ago, HigSkin said:

Didn't see this posted but interesting...

 

 

So, taken as gospel truth, it would mean that Bruce chose to solve a petty office politics dispute by throwing GMSM under a dump truck full of mud, backing the truck up, and then dumping the mud on him.

 

Hmm, give me a minute to figure out how much this changes my perspective...

 

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, mike42 said:

So why bother speculating anyway? Something to talk about in the off season? I don't understand.

 

I really don't care hearing the reason why this employee was fired which is probably more professional to keep it behind closed doors. Maybe its me, I only want to see the solution on resolving a issue. Will it make a difference if Dan or Bruce speaks publicly about any issue? Not to me. No drama needed. Just fix the issue.

 

And you're right, Snyder has been willing to let others run the show for better or worse , so it's not illogical to suggest him hire a consultant on a short time basis. To be fair, Snyder has been willing to try different things and take new ideas into consideration.

 

I get your point - especially about the speculations by a fan posing an an insider.

 

But the problem with your second point is that they spread some misinformation on how, why and when Scot was fired. It was all just a CYA exercise. Had they just said we have part ways with Scot M and we wish him the best, then OK. But instead they release a ridiculous statement then let it leak he was fired for drinking. It's more the pattern of how they do business than this specific item. 

 

And yes, Dan is willing to try different things - well except the one that's been proven successful. I heard a saying that applies here - Dan does the right thing, once all other options have been exhausted. And really, not sure he will do the right thing then unless it's by pure luck. But a guy can hope. 

[RWJ]

6 hours ago, HigSkin said:

Didn't see this posted but interesting...

 

 

IMO, Kyle Smith is an up and coming GM.  I think the drafts he has been involved with have yielded the Skins some very good to excellent players.  I'm glad he's here vs. Scot.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The issue apparently was that Scot was so ballyhooed by the media and fans that some people in the building were envious about all the attention he got for it.  The fact that Kyle was in that group actually to me is a strike against him.  To me that stuff comes with the turf.  The boss gets the credit typically and blame because they make the call.  For example, Scot is often killed for the Doctson pick but I heard multiple times Sean McVay was the dude standing on the table for Doctson.  Regardless, Scot made the call so if he's good or not good, its on him.

 

 

 

[drowland]

13 hours ago, HigSkin said:

Didn't see this posted but interesting...

 

 

 

If true does it change my perspective?  YES it makes things worse IMO.  GMs take the credit and the blame when it comes to the draft and player personnel.  That's the way it works.  I didn't see anyone other then Scot raising their hand to take credit for the Matt Jones pick which didn't work out.  If Kyle and the scouts are really butt hurt about that stuff then the dysfunction will continue.   

 

Also lets remember, Vinny was Director of College Scouting for the 49ers in the 90's when they had some really solid drafts and by all accounts he was good at what he was doing.  Heck, to this day Vinny still takes credit for drafting Terrell Owens.  But when he stepped in to a larger personnel role he wasn't so great.  Being a GM is a different animal, much like making the jump from coordinator to HC.  Kyle better hope he's ready for that jump if the opportunity comes because no one bats 1.000  and he'll have to take the blame for the wiffs.  

[ntotoro]

If anything, this makes my perception of Bruce even worse. It shows he’s completely ineffective as a manager and incapable of squashing an in-house beef, assuming it’s even true.

[Rufus T Firefly]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The issue apparently was that Scot was so ballyhooed by the media and fans that some people in the building were envious about all the attention he got for it.  The fact that Kyle was in that group actually to me is a strike against him.  To me that stuff comes with the turf.  The boss gets the credit typically and blame because they make the call.  

Absolutely. If that report is true, then Kyle has some serious issues. At that point in time, he really wasn't  anything more than a guy with an NFL job because of who his dad was. If he was really raising a stink because the GM was getting credit for doing what a GM does, and people weren't praising area scouts instead, it gives me serious pause about how excited we should be about this guy being our supposed savior going forward.

 

That, again, is if this is true. I have my doubts. 

[NewCliche21]

If I'm in charge of Smith and I see that he doesn't want credit, then I doubt his ambition, decisiveness, and leadership.  Just like any other job, do you want your boss taking credit for your work?  Not if you want to move up the ladder.

 

I think it's a no-brainer even if it's not necessary for reporting.

[goskins10]

14 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Absolutely. If that report is true, then Kyle has some serious issues. At that point in time, he really wasn't  anything more than a guy with an NFL job because of who his dad was. If he was really raising a stink because the GM was getting credit for doing what a GM does, and people weren't praising area scouts instead, it gives me serious pause about how excited we should be about this guy being our supposed savior going forward.

 

That, again, is if this is true. I have my doubts. 

 

First, I agree 100% here. More addressing the last statement as an add on. 

 

I have my doubts also - not that maybe he might have privately been a little chapped, but just how upset he was. I am pretty sure I remember there being quotes from Kyle directly that he appreciated Scot encouraging him to get out to see more players in person. That Scot taking over some of the administrative part of scouting allowed him to see more players and develop his own eye for talent. He was speaking of Scot as more of a mentor. Maybe I am imagining that.

 

The two are not mutually exclusive. He could on one hand be happy about the increased learning but be a little pissed if that person seems to be getting all the credit. The good managers I have had make sure to identify when I make significant contributions. I try to do the same with anyone who reports to me. My guess is though, that any issues arose from the way Bruce manages, He may have even stoked those fires - I am purely speculating here. No proof what so ever. 

 

Anyway, I never got the impression there were strained relationships between Scot and the scouting team - quote the opposite. If the truly was an issue, I would need to hear context. Was he slightly annoyed but it's wasn't really a big deal - Bruce just using it at scapegoat material, or he was really pissed. If it's the later I would be disappointed with Kyle. 

 

[XtremeFan55]

I hope fans can now see how Tony Wylie operates.  He has Bruce’s back because it is Bruce who hired him in 2010 and promoted him to “Senior Vice President”.

 

So he knows how to play the media.  Plant innuendo, rumors, slanders to sports journalist desperate for something to report and watching those tidbits of news take off like wildfire.   

 

Look at this Kyle Smith episode.  Like Scot before him, the fans are beginning to clamour for his promotion to GM and to get Bruce fired.   And like Scot before him....stories start leaking from anonymous sources which is Tony Wylie to undermine Kyle Smith to sully his reputation so that the calls for his promotion will dissipate.   

 

The reason why it is Tony Wylie behind all this is because it is his job.  Just go back and remember how he followed RG3 around to monitor his interviews after a game then cut it off when he thought that was enough .  Or how about his “No...Means.. No” when he cut off Colt’s interview after a game.  This guy is like a sinister shadow watching every piece of information getting out.  Does anyone really think there are loose cannon employees feeding information with a guy like Wylie around?   All anonymous information leaking has got to be Wylie and no one else.

 

As Kyle gets more experience and better at his job he will not be content working under the current authority structure of Bruce and Doug being ahead of him and will likely leave at some point and go on to be successful somewhere else.  Bruce wants to maintain the status quo at all costs and will step in to remove any obstacle to his power by utilizing his loyal henchman...Tony Wylie.  

 

That is why the whole FO needs to go in order to bring in real change.  Bruce has too much power and will do everything to keep it.

 

There is a window of opportunity for change but that will require fans to boycott the games and stay away.   Because the attendance has dropped precipitously last year from the Redskins having 3rd best figures down to 27th in the league.....the fans must continue to boycott and bring it down even more and force Snyder to make major changes.   If not that...then I can see the League forcing Snyder to change since they operate as a Cartel and the other owners have a say because it can jeopardize the next TV negotiations.

 

Please....boycott the games this Fall.  Let it be so bad that Snyder or the League steps in and force Bruce and his cronies out.  

 

Then there will be some hope.

 

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

I have my doubts also - not that maybe he might have privately been a little chapped, but just how upset he was. I am pretty sure I remember there being quotes from Kyle directly that he appreciated Scot encouraging him to get out to see more players in person. That Scot taking over some of the administrative part of scouting allowed him to see more players and develop his own eye for talent. He was speaking of Scot as more of a mentor. Maybe I am imagining that.

 

This is a really good point. And unfortunately its part of the legacy of incrimination of Bruce.

 

1) This is further an attack at Scot. I was saying that it was probably not cohesion in the front office among scouts under Scot, but that was my assumption and nothing really verified it. This comes out years later and suddenly people like me say "see" but whats really the point of leaking this other than to get at Scot? This leads to

 

2) This brings a cracy in the holy grail of Kyle so people can just say "he's some arrogant prick who lucked into this because of his dad like Bruce".

 

So who comes out of this looking clean, Bruce...unless you look into it. Its really messed up that NOBODY can just leave our team on good tides. I mean, everybody leaves with bad blood. There's always a smear campaign. As much as I didn't like Mike Nolan as a DC, Vanilla Ice Cream? Whenever I think of that story I grow in my dislike of Snyder. A guy like that doesn't just do that on a whim, it shows how he really thinks and the type of environment he wants. I know in a place of work, if a boss came to me and did anything remotely close to that I may be filing legal action, let alone the fact that I wouldn't be working there again. Then the whole Zorn stuff, its really adding up and neither of those is on Bruce. Thats us seeing how much of a slimeball Dan is. Bruce is just the latest (better) implementer of Dan's will. 

 

And that's why I don't think this team will ever win under Dan. The minute that Klye or whoever else we are able to bring in and be an actual "good" GM goes and has a bad season or a few strikeouts in a row, is Dan going to do these things again? The moment he does is the moment that this good GM walks. Or even if they don't walk, it'll be something like the rumblings we're hearing where coaches want out or their contracts expire and they aren't eager to re-sign here. Then when they leave we'll hear about how bad they are and how they weren't "team" players or how they were drunk or whatever else they want to expose as a demon in the person. It really sucks.