The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[wit33]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The whole “if Alex Smith...” scenario game is confusing to me.  As if he’s the only guy that got hurt.  All the signs were there prior to his injury that this team was going nowhere.  The merry go round on the Oline was far more detrimental to the team’s chances.  

 

Theres truth in what you’re saying, that’s why bar is set low— a 3-3/4-2 type finish and a 9-10 win season. Nothing great, due in some part to what you shared above. Not to say they couldn’t have finished 1-5 or 2-4 either. 

[wit33]

12 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Honestly, probably about .500. We'd still have adversity but just of a different kind. I mean, Kirk was an elite QB for some of that time but we had no defense. Then we had injury problems, WR problems, OL problems, etc.

 

Elite and Kirk used together causes me a great deal of trauma I wish not rehash in this public forum. Maybe some day lol

 

 

12 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

There's a guy called Batman. He's known for having a plan and a backup plan and backup plans for the backup plans, and then he's got contingencies for those backup plans. The main thing about this team is that we don't have backup plans. It becomes obvious when we're unable to make mid-game adjustments. But we also don't make mid-season adjustments so whenever it becomes known how Jay's going to do it, the good teams say we'll take that away and see what you want to do and that's when we fail. 

 

It’s so difficult to have backup plans with average coaching and QB play. Teams with good coaching or an elite QB are in better position to maximize a plan b. 

 

Im not absolving the FO blame of being average for last 4 seasons, but not on the other extreme end either. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

The Skins have been a .500 team for last 4 years. 

 

What would there win percentage of been with an elite QB?

 

That can be the theme of a book on Dan someday -- What if he actually got the QB position right?    It can be a chapter on this topic from each season of Dan's reign starting with the move to oust Brad Johnson for Jeff George. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I posted this elsewhere but it pertains to discussion here too.  Just caught up with Sheehan's podcast on the subject.  He said a source he has to the FO told him no way they'd take the full cap hit for Alex this season.  Here's what they supposedly are thinking:

 

A. They aren't ruling out that one day Alex returns

B.  They think they are really really close to the promised land so they want to have as much cap room as possible to make moves this off season

C.  If anything they are considering extending Alex's contract to spread out the cap hit further -- the old Vinny Cerrato move

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

42 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

O posted this elsewhere but it pertains to discussion here too.  Just caught up with Sheehan's podcast on the subject.  He said a source he has to the FO told him no way they'd take the full cap hit for Alex this season.  Here's what they supposedly are thinking:

 

A. They aren't ruling out that one day Alex returns

B.  They think they are really really close to the promised land so they want to have as much cap room as possible to make moves this off season

C.  If anything they are considering extending Alex's contract to spread out the cap hit further -- the old Vinny Cerrato move

 

I bet the folks Bruce socializes with during Super Bowl week get a real kick out of how he thinks they’re close.  

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I bet the folks Bruce socializes with during Super Bowl week get a real kick out of how he thinks they’re close.  

 

Yeah the other thing Sheehan said Bruce believes is that he is great at what he does and he rocks at his job but he has been befallen by bad luck, that's all.

 

I've been listening to Gibbs today and he has echoed the bad luck stuff so I bet he helped Bruce when talking to Dan post the Eagles game.  I suspected the same at the time.  Love Gibbs but he doesn't have a cynical bone in his body and is ever the optimist.  Gibbs was Cerrato's biggest cheerleader back in the day.  I used to document that when there was a Cerrato thread similar to this one years back.

[wit33]

Was there bad luck last year though? 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Was there bad luck last year though? 

 

Was last year's Dan and Bruce's first rodeo for trying to get it right?  How many times do they deserve to be graded on a curve?  When will they figure it out? And for me who hated the trade and among other things had to sit in the heat for that dreck of an offense during that Tampa game which was their last hurrah, I am not buying that team was headed to the promised land. 

[theTruthTeller]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

...

C.  If anything they are considering extending Alex's contract to spread out the cap hit further -- the old Vinny Cerrato move

 

This would be Bruce's welcome gift to whomever is unfortunate enough to be the next GM.

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B.  They think they are really really close to the promised land so they want to have as much cap room as possible to make moves this off season

In our situation, promised land is 1st pick in 2020 draft.

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  If anything they are considering extending Alex's contract to spread out the cap hit further -- the old Vinny Cerrato move

 

I can't see them extending, but I could see us converting some element of salary to bonus to spread some cap hit into the out years. Convert 5 mil in salary this year and get 4 mil back in cap space this year type of thing.

 

That being said, the CBA has only 2 years to run, some expect a lockout, and i was reading that cutting players in 2020 accelerates their dead cap hit into that 2020 cap year, there is no option to leave dead cap in the out years in that scenario.

 

Cant claim to understand that fully, but I'm sure the expiring CBA will be a factor in how we choose to deal with the Smith contract.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

In our situation, promised land is 1st pick in 2020 draft.

 

Agree.  

 

What I was saying to Wit33 is Dan and Bruce hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt with an "if and but" type of narrative.  Heck in one of his interviews, Bruce seemed to want to have banners too for 2017 and 2018 because "they were close", then too.  Have our standards shrunk that far?  

 

My beef with the Alex trade when it happened was his age and match to this roster and its the type of move you make when you think you can do things via a win now move that you haven't already accomplished in recent years.  

 

I'll give Dan, Bruce and heck even Vinny that they have figured out how to eke their way into the playoffs every 4 years or so, get smoked in round 1 and then wait 3 years or so for the next go, rinse and repeat.

 

But I am tired of that version of mediocrity.  Even if they eked into the playoffs this year at 9-7, would I be feeling any different than their other short lived minor runs?

 

The thing is if the goal is 7-9 to 9-7 in perpetuity -- Bruce and Dan might have figured out the formula.  But at some point, don't we want to reboot and be a big boy team as opposed to as how Peter King likes to frame it -- part of NFL's middle class.  

3 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Cant claim to understand that fully, but I'm sure the expiring CBA will be a factor in how we choose to deal with the Smith contract.

 

 

 

Sheehan mentioned that, too.  ditto to get any insurance money back they need to exhaust the rehab of Alex's injury. 

[JSSkinz]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B.  They think they are really really close to the promised land so they want to have as much cap room as possible to make moves this off season

"The promised land" really?  Even after Bruce has been on radio 2 times in the last few weeks saying he thought we were close because we almost had the last wildcard spot?  But that's "the promised land".  Is Sheehan saying the Skins FO now thinks that being a Wildcard team is "the promise land"

 

I'm not buying it, doesn't pass the smell test for me.

 

Just seems like more pile on spin for the pitch forkers.

 

 

 

 

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

Was there bad luck last year though? 

 

Yes, of course. However, not all but a good portion of their "bad luck" was due to poor decisions. When you keep guys with injury problems and sign FAs with injury problems, then it's not a huge leap to expect them to have an inordinate amount of injuries. 

 

The Alex injury - Total bad luck. Guy had not had any real injury issues and the injury itself was a freak accident. 

Colt McCoy - has not been able to stay healthy when he plays. 

Brandon Scherff - Total bad luck. 

Sean Lauvou, Trent Williams and Morgan Moses - all have injury issues. I could see you going with Williams and maybe even Moses - but Lauvou? WTF was he still doing here? 

 

Reed - Great when in but injured every year. 

Chris Thompson - same. 

Paul Richardson - Injury prone before he got here. 

 

I could go on. But that is enough to make the point. You keep an injured roster you get injuries. That excuse may have worked last year (2017) and in fairness it was probably legitimate to a certain extent. But 3 of 4 seasons being one of the most injured teams in the NFL is not all just bad luck. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

"The promised land" really?  Even after Bruce has been on radio 2 times in the last few weeks saying he thought we were close because we almost had the last wildcard spot?  But that's "the promised land".  Is Sheehan saying the Skins FO now thinks that being a Wildcard team is "the promise land"

 

I'm not buying it, doesn't pass the smell test for me.

 

Just seems like more pile on spin for the pitch forkers.

 

 

 

 

 

Sheehan doesn't define the promised land he said they think they are "close".  Does that fly in the face of what Bruce is saying?  it's the same thing.  

 

My version of the promised land is the SB.  Bruce's version I gather is making the playoffs.  But the definition of what's the standard of close is irrelevant to the point.  His point was the FO doesn't see this as a rebuilding year -- in their minds they are close.   Whether their version of close is what your version or my version of close is immaterial to the point.  The point is they are reloading, not rebuilding.  Will see soon enough if he's correct.  Sheehan's been hot on some things lately.  Will see if he's right on this one, too.

[JSSkinz]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But the definition of what's the standard of close is irrelevant to the point.  His point was the FO doesn't see this as a rebuilding year -- in their minds they are close.

Its kind of relevant because like you I believe the "promised land" means Superbowl contender, not 6th seed in the Wildcard.

 

What we now know about Bruce from his most recent pressers is that the goal for him is just getting that last seed in the playoffs, Doc made sure he got that out of him yesterday.

 

So even though we have one of the worst GM's in the NFL at least I can have some sort of comfort in knowing he understands the team lacks talent if our goal is to just make the playoffs, if he's pushing the other narrative (promised land) that changes everything, he immediately comes off as delusional and losses what little inkling of credibility (if any) he has left.

 

 

[HardcoreZorn]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sheehan doesn't define the promised land he said they think they are "close".  Does that fly in the face of what Bruce is saying?  it's the same thing.  

 

My version of the promised land is the SB.  Bruce's version I gather is making the playoffs.  But the definition of what's the standard of close is irrelevant to the point.  His point was the FO doesn't see this as a rebuilding year -- in their minds they are close.   Whether their version of close is what your version or my version of close is immaterial to the point.  The point is they are reloading, not rebuilding.  Will see soon enough if he's correct.  Sheehan's been hot on some things lately.  Will see if he's right on this one, too.

You literally don’t know anything that’s going on behind the scenes. Nada. Neither does the media. So your “I gather” Schtick is getting old. You don’t know ****, stop pretending you do.

 

^someone needs to say this to you. We all get it, you soak up Redskins information all day. The problem is you soak up redskins information from sources that don’t have a clue on the inner happenings of the team at the moment. For better or worse that’s, how they operate. 

 

Now, to dive in a little deeper, to sneak into the playoffs IS close in today’s NFL. The giants won their two superbowls with 9-7 records. Many teams get hot at the right time and make noise in the post season, hell, the Eagles went from getting the doors blown off them against the Saints in the regular season to nearly advancing to the NFC championship game against them in THEIR home. Even the patriots were thought to be a shell of their former selves this season until now, when it matters most. We were 6-3. Did we have flaws? Most certainly. Is it outside the realm of possibility Alex starts to hit his stride and we go 10-6 and are a threat? With our pass rush and running game, even this season? Most certainly not. 

 

Is that a definite if Alex stays healthy? Hell no. But to act like it’s the stupidest thing you’ve ever heard? Personal agenda shining through exhibit A.

 

Really REALLY hope we go crazy in FA this year and you have to writhe in pain as you lose your hope and dreams of going 2-14 this season. What a loser’s mentality. And while I’m not content with the current direction of the franchise, I can firmly say I’m thankful it’s not lead by you. 

 

End rant.

 

My thoughts: 

 

The team is strapped with Smith’s contract. Can’t go FA QB route. If Gruden and O’Connell like a QB, lets go get them. It’s a unique draft in the fact that there are some blue chippers at other positions and some serious questions with the QB prospects. That will push those guys down. IF, and big IF, Gruden and O’Connell like one of Murray/Lock/Haskins and think he’s THE guy with some development, trade up if you have to and go get him. Nothing crazy, but similar to what KC and Houston did to get Mahomes and Watson. If none of those guys are thought to be THE guy, don’t force it. Add a blue chip edge, WR, CB, or even LB. Take a flier on a guy like Grier/Jones in R2 or Finley/Rypien in R3, with the full expectation the franchise QB still isn’t on the roster. If they develop into top 10-15 guy or better, great, you struck gold. Not likely, but even so, having a young and capable spot starter or backup is more than worth that selection. Could be a trade chip down the line as well. Bottom line is please don’t force the issue. Would WAY rather go 6-10 with colt/josh with a stud at another position already on the roster than to go 6-10 with a rookie QB who looks lost and out of place and was not worthy of what we gave up for him. Play the long game here, keep drafting good football players like we have been and go find your QB when it makes the most sense. 

 

Side note, I’d heavily consider paying a Demarcus Lawrence or Frank Clark a BIG FA deal. Those guys are feared edge rushers and game changers. You add one of them to Allen and Payne and Foster and Kerrigan up front and wow. QB/WR/LG/ILB/CB/S are positions focused on throughout draft with full realization you can’t do it all. Another RB with talent can never hurt either, but with 9 picks again and a deep draft I think you have a chance to find quite a few really good players.

 

My hope is that Kyle Smith has another really successful draft and is given the title of GM. Let’s not lose any more up and comers. Looking at you O’Connell and Smith. 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Edit

 

My thoughts: 

 

The team is strapped with Smith’s contract. Can’t go FA QB route. If Gruden and O’Connell like a QB, lets go get them. It’s a unique draft in the fact that there are some blue chippers at other positions and some serious questions with the QB prospects. That will push those guys down. IF, and big IF, Gruden and O’Connell like one of Murray/Lock/Haskins and think he’s THE guy with some development, trade up if you have to and go get him. Nothing crazy, but similar to what KC and Houston did to get Mahomes and Watson. If none of those guys are thought to be THE guy, don’t force it. Add a blue chip edge, WR, CB, or even LB. Take a flier on a guy like Grier/Jones in R2 or Finley/Rypien in R3, with the full expectation the franchise QB still isn’t on the roster. If they develop into top 10-15 guy or better, great, you struck gold. Not likely, but even so, having a young and capable spot starter or backup is more than worth that selection. Could be a trade chip down the line as well. Bottom line is please don’t force the issue. Would WAY rather go 6-10 with colt/josh with a stud at another position already on the roster than to go 6-10 with a rookie QB who looks lost and out of place and was not worthy of what we gave up for him. Play the long game here, keep drafting good football players like we have been and go find your QB when it makes the most sense. 

 

Side note, I’d heavily consider paying a Demarcus Lawrence or Frank Clark a BIG FA deal. Those guys are feared edge rushers and game changers. You add one of them to Allen and Payne and Foster and Kerrigan up front and wow. QB/WR/LG/ILB/CB/S are positions focused on throughout draft with full realization you can’t do it all. Another RB with talent can never hurt either, but with 9 picks again and a deep draft I think you have a chance to find quite a few really good players.

 

My hope is that Kyle Smith has another really successful draft and is given the title of GM. Let’s not lose any more up and comers. Looking at you O’Connell and Smith. 

 

 

@Skinsinparadise is more than capable of defending themselves, but with all due respect your rant is totally out of line. His "shtick" is him providing what he thinks based on what he has heard and seen. He has never claimed anything else unless he has rock solid proof. But even his opinions are made with as much supporting evidence as possible. It's not hard to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Is it always right? No. But last I saw, this is a place for thoughts and opinions. He is providing his and does not deserve your little rant. You just don't like what he is saying. So don't ****ing read it. You are the one who keeps engaging. 

 

What's really rich is you then grace us with your opinion - which you are entitled to, but seems a bit out of place when just got done telling another poster their opinions are just shtick and getting old. So is it only hard facts or are opinions allowed? Which is it? 

 

BTW: SIP accuracy has been better than most of the board put together. You are seriously barking up the wrong tree calling what they post as shtick. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

You literally don’t know anything that’s going on behind the scenes. Nada. Neither does the media. So your “I gather” Schtick is getting old.

 

Talk about "Schtick" getting old.  You IMO are by a mile the most predictable poster on this thread.   I can predict what you are going to write before you even do it.  If what I hear bothers you that much then stop responding to me.  I told you this before. 

 

I argue with other defenders of the FO on and off for years (for example Thinking Skins and I have gone back and forth for years but its mostly respectful with actually real football discussion) and most of that time we can have a civil and pleasant conversation.  It's not the case with you.   

 

I told you this last year when we had a disagreement about something -- if you have a problem with my position, then stop responding to me.  But you kept at it.   And here you are again.  I am not interested in your opinion, I got it already, its a variation of the same thing almost every time.    I am interested in talking football -- not having edgy conversations almost all the time with the same poster like what happens with you.  Once in awhile, that's fine.   But with you it feels like 90% of the time.  So what's the point.  

 

41 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

 

^someone needs to say this to you. We all get it, you soak up Redskins information all day. The problem is you soak up redskins information from sources that don’t have a clue on the inner happenings of the team at the moment. For better or worse that’s, how they operate. 

 

 

Yep Sheehan sources are always wrong.  The dude that said Bruce is coming back, the dude said Bruce will interrupt his media silence within weeks.  Both happened.   So Sheehan's wrong about Bruce thinking they are "close".  Fine.  If you say so.   Of course if I said something like Sheehan's hearing that people around the league think Bruce is really sharp and don't get the fan unrest -- you'd say right on, I told you so. 😉

 

I think everyone here are big boys or big girls and get that sources can be wrong and can be right.  But its not up to you to tell me what to share or not.   I share a lot of stuff by the way and not just about Bruce.  I'll pull articles I find, tweets, share what I hear on podcasts. I do it with film reviews, gossip, the draft, players, the whole 9 yards.  Bruce is actually a small part of that soup and if what I share about Bruce offends you than just ignore my posts and stop responding to them.  I am not posting specifically for your benefit.  

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

Its kind of relevant because like you I believe the "promised land" means Superbowl contender, not 6th seed in the Wildcard.

 

What we now know about Bruce from his most recent pressers is that the goal for him is just getting that last seed in the playoffs, Doc made sure he got that out of him yesterday.

 

So even though we have one of the worst GM's in the NFL at least I can have some sort of comfort in knowing he understands the team lacks talent if our goal is to just make the playoffs, if he's pushing the other narrative (promised land) that changes everything, he immediately comes off as delusional and losses what little inkling of credibility (if any) he has left.

 

 

 

I agree from that context.  So maybe I miscommunicated my point.  Bruce thinks they are "close".  The promised land is a term I like to use not Sheehan.  What Bruce's version of close I guess is a mystery but I presume its something good.  And the way Sheehan communicated the point its indeed something good. 

 

The big takeaway is that they aren't looking to rebuild but reload.  They want to spread Alex's cap hit for multiple reasons but the primary one is so they can participate the way they'd like in FA and to retain their players.  

 

This is consistent with what some others have said who cover the team -- that in the building they think they are close.  Jay more or less said the same in his closing press conference and in a subsequent interview.   And Bruce alluded to it, too.

 

The interesting dynamic for me is what does Bruce do to reload.  He's not typically a big FA guy.  But do they do something to create a splash, regardless.  Who knows.  As I've said before this off season should be very interesting. 

 

 

[Riggo-toni]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That can be the theme of a book on Dan someday -- What if he actually got the QB position right?    It can be a chapter on this topic from each season of Dan's reign starting with the move to oust Brad Johnson for Jeff George. 

Since 1999, the Redskins have used/traded 6 first rounders, 3 seconds, 4 thirds (though they will get one back as a comp pick for Cousins), 3 fourths, plus a handful of 6ths and 7ths and Kendall Fuller to land a QB.  And this has left us with >$50million in dead money for a guy who lasted less than half a season.

[Andre The Giant]

After the Tampa game I thought they might be close. The team played with an impressive confidence that day.

 

Obviously they seemed very far away after the second Giants game. 

 

They won games early in the season, but we’re hardly dominant. How close are they (assuming they get a winning QB ... huge assumption)?  It’s certainly up for debate. 

 

If they think they’re that close they’ll probably go after a proven vet like Dalton. 

[Tsailand]

On 1/31/2019 at 11:17 AM, XtremeFan55 said:

2017.  75,200.  Rank 6th

2018.  61,000.  Rank 27th 

 

How do we know this is true? Perhaps they've been lying about attendance all along -- they lie about everything -- but in 2018 they released real numbers.

[RandyHolt]

12 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

I think we all know Josh Norman isn't wired up correctly. 

 

 Not sure why I thought of this...

 

[HardcoreZorn]

26 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

@Skinsinparadise is more than capable of defending themselves, but with all due respect your rant is totally out of line. His "shtick" is him providing what he thinks based on what he has heard and seen. He has never claimed anything else unless he has rock solid proof. But even his opinions are made with as much supporting evidence as possible. It's not hard to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Is it always right? No. But last I saw, this is a place for thoughts and opinions. He is providing his and does not deserve your little rant. You just don't like what he is saying. So don't ****ing read it. You are the one who keeps engaging. 

 

What's really rich is you then grace us with your opinion - which you are entitled to, but seems a bit out of place when just got done telling another poster their opinions are just shtick and getting old. So is it only hard facts or are opinions allowed? Which is it? 

 

BTW: SIP accuracy has been better than most of the board put together. You are seriously barking up the wrong tree calling what they post as shtick. 

 

 

Yeah... that’s the thing. What he’s heard is certifiably not accurate. Pay attention. 

 

Unless you think Tomsula wanted out cause the 3 ring circus? Oh wait.... he’s back for another year. Oh wait a second! It must be because no one wants to coach here... oh wait, a young up and coming OC who was inquired about around the league for an OC position decided to stay here instead.

 

See here’s the thing. No one, and I literally mean no one knows what’s going on in Ashburn right now. And while you instantly and predictably think that’s me being a blind supporter, it’s not. If you read the reports or gossip (most if not all SIP references) you’ll find that nearly none of it has come true. Tomsula and Callahan want out? Still here, no? Who called O’Connell getting promoted? Which beat guy? Who knew of Horton, or Rob Ryan? Nobody is the only correct answer. 

 

Is that a good thing? Idk. It doesn’t mean it’s good or bad really. But what we can safely say is, no one knows. I scan this board every single day, stopped posting for the most part for a variety of reasons. But I’ve read every single media report that’s come out and can 100% say that it’s not gospel. It’s just not. 

 

unfortunately your pal SIP takes it as gospel. And so do you since you rush to his defense. Why is that? I reckon it’s because your mind is already made up in the negative (like 95% of the fanbase currently)  and you use media as a way to substantiate or corroborate your beliefs. That’s common, so no harm no foul. But I’m surprised you don’t know this, don’t believe everything you hear. 

 

Also, what’s rich is my opinion is actually that, an opinion. Listening to a bunch of hoopla and saying “I’d gather” is by definition not an opinion. Again, cool, you agree. But suggesting things based off current media’s access to the club seems lazy at best and downright wrong at worst.