The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[TD_washingtonredskins]

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Started a thread on this, record wise this is true, Vinny even has a better record against Dallas.  But in regards to quality draft picks up and down the board, there's no contest.  That and getting us out if overpaying everyone made it a push, aka they both suck.

 

 

 

Right, I actually think it's intellectually dishonest to claim Cerrato was better just because he had a better record. It's not dissimilar to claiming Alex Smith is better than Aaron Rodgers because of their overall W/L record. 

 

First of all, I'm assuming Vinny gets credit for Gibbs II and I want to pass every shred of credit from that 4-year run to Gibbs himself. Secondly, Allen to his credit has built more through the draft and hit on more picks who weren't high first rounders. Lastly, he did run the player acquisition side of the house like an adult (even though he ran other areas of the operation like a jealous 13-year old girl). 

[SkinsFTW]

The problem isn't only having Bumbling Bruce Allen supposedly making all these decisions for the team. The problem is the Trifecta of Ineptitude.

 

We have the Butthead of Team Presidents "uh huh huh At least we're winning off the field uh huh huhhh."

 

"uh huh huh There is no doubt that we will re-sign Kirk Cousins this off-season uh huh huh"

 

 But then we have the Allen Iverson of Head Coaches " Practice??? We talking about Practice now man"

 

We also have the Wile E Coyote of team owners. Whenever he comes up with a brilliant idea to stir up into the mix it inevitably backfires in hilarious fashion. The dude needs to carry around a sign.

 

People pretend that Snyder is this brilliant guy who has to see what is wrong but in response to that all I have to say is look back over the past 20 years.

 

It is all incompetent **** followed by additional incompetent **** for most of 2 decades. A lot of it idiotic like 3 first rounders for a QB with an ACL and no playbook in college, or signing Haynesworth for 100M after you already knew he 1/2 assed it. Hell he didn't even want to play in his 1 playoff game in Houston. Or hiring Marty giving him 100% control but then despite very likely success, wanting to play with your toy was more important.

 

McNabb wasn't enough from Reid, doubling down with Smith for the full on Charlie Brown w/Lucy kicking the football embarrassment naturally was inevitable. 

 

8 years of Vinny wasn't enough. How about 9+ with the next known loser...He hired Bruce Allen because he was a known yesman with a bonus team connection and of course he was endorsed by Shanahan as well. Winning off the field is his specialty.

 

Shanahan/Allen both losers for almost the entire 2000s. Hazlett who never had even close to a top 10 D. Berry? Lol.

 

Gruden in his first season decided not to practice before the Thursday game and also during the bye week. We lost before Thursday, Thursday and then also the game after the bye. We do the same thing still regularly losing all those same games. Nothing changes. Starters go into the season rusty because he doesn't play them in preseason and compounded with his dislike for preparation and practice we see how that works out year after year. It also explains his same old same old play calling which doesn't change up much at all over 5 seasons. That would require a lot more practice. Who wants to practice?

[celticsalmon]

As long we fans continue to have hope,  buy the company line about whichever coach or player),  attend games, call into talk shows, watch games, follow ES and basically just give a s...! This team will flounder in mediocrity.

 

The sad thing for us is that we don't get paid to be fans. We do it out of passion.  Win or lose the organization cashes in - top to bottom.

Take away the $ and how many in the orgnaization would play or coahc or manage out of passion? 

 

[TK]

32 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Gruden in his first season decided not to practice before the Thursday game and also during the bye week. 

There's this thing called the CBA. You should read it. You can get a copy of it in the Download Section here on ES. I know this because I put it there so you guys could smarten yourselves up instead of talking out of your ass when you're venting.  

 

Here's what you're missing with your Bye Week practice rant.   

 

Quote

ARTICLE 24 REGULAR SEASON AND POSTSEASON PRACTICES

 

Section 1. Practice Rules: (a) During the regular season, padded practices for all players shall be limited to a total of fourteen, eleven of which must be held during the first eleven weeks of the regular season, and three of which must be held during the remaining six weeks of the regular season. The Club may choose the days of the week on which such practices shall be held. Subject to the foregoing rules, each Club may hold two padded practices during the same week during one week of the regular season, provided that such week falls within the first eleven weeks of the regular season. (b) Clubs participating in the postseason may hold one padded practice per week, on a day of the Club’s choosing, commencing with the week following the Club’s last regular season game. (c) For purposes of this Article and Article 23, a “padded practice” shall be defined as a practice in which players are required to wear helmets and shoulder pads, in addition to any other equipment required by the Club, subject to the exceptions set forth in Article 23, Section 6(b). (d) On days when padded practices are permitted under Subsection (a) above, on-field Team activity for all players shall be limited to a maximum of three hours per day, including “first period” (i.e., stretching and calisthenics), provided that (i) players may participate in on-field activities with their position coaches for a period not to exceed thirty minutes, prior to the three-hour maximum on-field period; and (ii) any walkthrough of reasonable and customary duration (for purposes of this Subsection, such walk-through to be no helmets and walking pace) that is conducted prior to or after the three-hour maximum on-field period shall not count against that limit. The three-hour time limit described above shall begin as soon as position coaches begin to coach players on the field, subject to provisos (i)–(ii) in this Subsection.

 

Section 2. Bye Weeks: During any regular season bye week period occurring during the term of this Agreement, players will be given a minimum of four consecutive days off. Such four-day period must include a Saturday and a Sunday unless the Club is scheduled to play a game on the Thursday following the bye week, in which case players may be required to report to the Club on the Sunday preceding the Thursday game. In such an event, the four-day period shall be Wednesday through Saturday. Any injured player may be required to undergo medical or rehabilitation treatment during such four-day period provided that such treatment is deemed reasonably necessary by the Club’s medical staff.

 

[SkinsFTW]

Well it's good to know that Gruden isn't able to make the team practice any more and that what seems to be slacktitude is a requirement. That was always my only major complaint about Gruden. Some teams win almost every time after the bye week and Thursday games, some lose just about every time. The difference for us is one of the reasons why we finish 8-8 instead of 10-6 on average every year. It always seems that we're 2-3 games off where we should be but that also has a lot to do with the injury prone dudes we always have as major contributors on the team.

[Reaper Skins]

14 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

People pretend that Snyder is this brilliant guy.....

 

[Dissident2]

18 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Right, I actually think it's intellectually dishonest to claim Cerrato was better just because he had a better record. It's not dissimilar to claiming Alex Smith is better than Aaron Rodgers because of their overall W/L record. 

 

I don't really agree. 

 

First off, they're both awful and an embarrassment to the GM job title. History alone tells us that. Saying one is "better" is like saying you'd rather die in an exploding vehicle than being ravaged Revenant-style by a grizzly bear.

 

But the QB comparison doesn't really work, as QBs are judged on all sorts of things, including - and probably moreso - by postseason victories and Super Bowl titles. Rodgers will always be considered superior to Smith because he has those things, the pinnacle of his profession. 

 

GMs are judged by a variety of factors as well, I guess, but far more by the win/loss record. That's what they're here to do: Assemble teams that rack up wins and get into the postseason. That's the most important stat by far for any GM and that's pretty much the only thing they're judged by.

 

Yes, you can talk about how Bruce's "spendthrift" ways have kept us in better cap position over the years (we won't mention capgate right now), how he doesn't go after the flashy free agent like we used to, etc., etc., etc. The fact is, under his time here as GM, comparable if not equal to Vinnie's time, we have won fewer regular season games and fewer playoff games than we did under Vinnie. You can prefer one guy's approach over the other's, but the fact remains that both approaches have been absolute failures, Allen's slightly moreso. 

 

I remember when Allen was on the field during Zorn's last year and how excited I was seeing that. "Now we have a football guy coming in here to right the ship, an ALLEN, no less." Good Lord, how wrong that asinine assumption was. 

 

I actually do think Allen is worse, because I think he is the embodiment of pure evil, whereas Vinnie is the embodiment of Simple Jack from Tropic Thunder. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

@Dissident2 I see your points above. 

 

I guess I just don't believe that Vinny did much of anything (good or bad, in his defense). So, when he was technically "overseeing" the 2000 Redskins and that 8-8 record, he had virtually nothing to do with that record. The core of the team was built before him and the add-ons who improved the defense were clearly Snyder decisions. 

 

Also, his 30-34 record while Gibbs was here was more attributable to Gibbs in my opinion. Again, this is the good stuff (2004 defensive FAs like Washington, Springs, etc.) and the bad stuff (trading 2 picks for TJ Duckett). 

 

I think he was much more involved in Spurrier's two years and Zorn's two years...but even then, we had an awful lot of Gators on those 2002-2003 teams and our 2008 personnel was basically the Gibbs team with a different coach.   

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Dissident2 I see your points above. 

 

I guess I just don't believe that Vinny did much of anything (good or bad, in his defense). So, when he was technically "overseeing" the 2000 Redskins and that 8-8 record, he had virtually nothing to do with that record. The core of the team was built before him and the add-ons who improved the defense were clearly Snyder decisions. 

 

 

Not a Vinny guy, I was as tough on him as I am on Bruce.  But one common thread I've heard multiple times from beat guys and even Cooley said it recently -- Vinny was mostly cover for Dan and that most of the over the top trades as to compensation and FA signings, were Dan's wants.  Likewise, multiple people covering the team have said Dan has calmed down and he's letting Bruce do his thing.  Who knows though?  Am sure we will find out later.  I doubt Dan has removed himself from pushing moves completely considering what Shanny has said about which is that Dan didn't do it a lot but did do it on occasion.

[HardcoreZorn]

3 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Dissident2 I see your points above. 

 

I guess I just don't believe that Vinny did much of anything (good or bad, in his defense). So, when he was technically "overseeing" the 2000 Redskins and that 8-8 record, he had virtually nothing to do with that record. The core of the team was built before him and the add-ons who improved the defense were clearly Snyder decisions. 

 

Also, his 30-34 record while Gibbs was here was more attributable to Gibbs in my opinion. Again, this is the good stuff (2004 defensive FAs like Washington, Springs, etc.) and the bad stuff (trading 2 picks for TJ Duckett). 

 

I think he was much more involved in Spurrier's two years and Zorn's two years...but even then, we had an awful lot of Gators on those 2002-2003 teams and our 2008 personnel was basically the Gibbs team with a different coach.   

 

To add to this, there are far too many variables involved to be judging the GM's HERE on wins and losses. It's too murky and a lazy analysis.

 

I mean we went from targeting Kory Lichtensteigers and Chris Chesters on the offensive line under Shanny to guys like Scherff, Moses, and Chase Roullier. Did Bruce Allen all of a sudden decide he likes bigger OL? Of course not, the system changed and as did the approach to scouting/drafting OL. The point? Shanny had his fingerprints all over the roster, as did Scott, as does Kyle Smith most recently.

 

But that's what makes Snyder so damn frustrating. Just hire a GM (preferably one who doesn't drink in excess) with absolute final say over everything. A collaborative effort sure, with the GM delegating to coaching staff and scouts beneath him on their areas of expertise. But at least a clear picture of where the final buck stops. I have no idea how culpable Shanny/Scott/Schaeffer/Doug/Bruce/Jay/Dan are for the record it has been since 2010. It's just not clear.

 

That all being said, I'm close to saying it's time for a switch at the top. I will never hate Bruce like 99% of the people in here or think he's some villain because I truly think he's brought a lot of respectable things to this organization that were missing in spades when Vinny was Dan's little shield. But with the latest QB conundrum, the growing restlessness/apathy of the fan base, and the fact we look to be on our way to another 9-7 at best and early exit out of the playoffs if we even get there, it's time. His title is team president, and 9 years is plenty long enough to establish something better than mediocrity. And I think Jay has to go too. I think he's an OK head coach. I think he would be a far superior OC though, and we need to find a guy who will instill some more discipline and fire. Like Bruce, 5 years is plenty. Cards were stacked against him in many ways with injuries and such. But I don't think I see super bowl winning HC in him even if everything fell into place.

 

Promote Schaeffer to team president with absolute accountability. Promote Kyle Smith to General Manager with final say over all personnel decisions including trades, compensation given up, free agents, etc. Let Kyle team up with a young up and coming head coach. Someone with fire, no more club Jay.

 

Do NOT make another rash decision in picking the QBOTF or get antsy to put people back in the stands right away. That's going to take time Dan, so don't make another knee-jerk decision to try and put a few more butts in seats immediately. We're still headed in the right direction with the last two draft classes and hopefully next with another 10 picks becoming the backbone and future of this team. Keep building the entire team up so that the QBOTF can take the ground running.

 

I could still see playoffs this year, but an early exit is inevitable. It would be tough to fire Jay if that were the case, but I think it's probably healthiest for the organization to move forward with a new clean direction and fresh perspective. Just my take.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not a Vinny guy, I was as tough on him as I am on Bruce.  But one common thread I've heard multiple times from beat guys and even Cooley said it recently -- Vinny was mostly cover for Dan and that most of the over the top trades as to compensation and FA signings, were Dan's wants.  Likewise, multiple people covering the team have said Dan has calmed down and he's letting Bruce do his thing.  Who knows though?  Am sure we will find out later.  I doubt Dan has removed himself from pushing moves completely considering what Shanny has said about which is that Dan didn't do it a lot but did do it on occasion.

 

I would buy that and it is part of my point...

 

Oddly, I think some of the "overpay" moves worked a little bit. Everyone bashes the Fortune .500 Redskins of 2000, but the big splash players we signed improved the defense from bottom-5 to top-5. That team failed because we didn't have a kicker, Westbrook got hurt, and Johnson played like ****. Ironically, I bet if Snyder would have COMPLETELY had his way and somehow made Turner start George at QB, we might have won 10+ games. That's not to say the signings were "smart" but I think they kept that team at .500. Imagine the 2000 offense with the 1999 defense! Not good. 

 

I think Vinny played a part on those teams. Like you said, he was the front man. So, technically on Pro Football Reference he gets that W/L record. But I just believe that he was further down the pecking order than Allen is. For example, I think Snyder and Gibbs "out-ranked" him from 2004-2007. This year, Bruce is ultimately responsible as there is no Gibbs-type coach and Snyder is removed now. 

 

[Tsailand]

52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Vinny was mostly cover for Dan and that most of the over the top trades as to compensation and FA signings, were Dan's wants.  Likewise, multiple people covering the team have said Dan has calmed down and he's letting Bruce do his thing.  Who knows though?  Am sure we will find out later.  I doubt Dan has removed himself from pushing moves completely considering what Shanny has said about which is that Dan didn't do it a lot but did do it on occasion.

 

Bee Eye En Gee Oh.

 

This is why Bruce is here.  Dan wants to make QB decisions but not take the blame for his decisions.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I would buy that and it is part of my point...

 

Oddly, I think some of the "overpay" moves worked a little bit. Everyone bashes the Fortune .500 Redskins of 2000, but the big splash players we signed improved the defense from bottom-5 to top-5. That team failed because we didn't have a kicker, Westbrook got hurt, and Johnson played like ****. Ironically, I bet if Snyder would have COMPLETELY had his way and somehow made Turner start George at QB, we might have won 10+ games. That's not to say the signings were "smart" but I think they kept that team at .500. Imagine the 2000 offense with the 1999 defense! Not good. 

 

I think Vinny played a part on those teams. Like you said, he was the front man. So, technically on Pro Football Reference he gets that W/L record. But I just believe that he was further down the pecking order than Allen is. For example, I think Snyder and Gibbs "out-ranked" him from 2004-2007. This year, Bruce is ultimately responsible as there is no Gibbs-type coach and Snyder is removed now. 

 

 

They had a real good first crop of FAs in Gibbs first year that helped turnaround that defense along with the Williams' hire.  I disagree with your point about Jeff George -- I think Brad Johnson > George.  

 

And I get in trouble whenever I try to make this point in the FA thread because it often gets twisted.  But in short, I am closer to Vinny/Dan's point of view on FA than Bruce's approach but not really on the same plane with either approach.  I believe in swinging for fences for top talent.  But where I disagreed with Cerrato/Dan is don't mortgage future cap by spending too much in FA with back loaded deals.  I'd rather have one really good player in FA versus 4 fliers in FA (hyperbole to bring home the point) for the same money.   And the player or two, I'd sign are lower risk guys -- not aging players like Bruce Smith or known head cases like Haynesworth.

 

Or even if you aren't swinging for the fences go for doubles -- the year they signed Griffin, Springs, Marcus Washington -- I liked that crop.  Bruce's closest version to that was 2017.  

 

I agree Vinny was further down the pecking order than Bruce aside from perhaps the Zorn years.  Ironically it was the Zorn years that did him in with Dan.

15 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

Bee Eye En Gee Oh.

 

This is why Bruce is here.  Dan wants to make QB decisions but not take the blame for his decisions.

 

 

Sadly I can't rule that out, seems conceivable. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They had a real good first crop of FAs in Gibbs first year that helped turnaround that defense along with the Williams' hire.  I disagree with your point about Jeff George -- I think Brad Johnson > George.  

 

And I get in trouble whenever I try to make this point in the FA thread because it often gets twisted.  But in short, I am closer to Vinny/Dan's point of view on FA than Bruce's approach but not really on the same plane with either approach.  I believe in swinging for fences for top talent.  But where I disagreed with Cerrato/Dan is don't mortgage future cap by spending too much in FA with back loaded deals.  I'd rather have one really good player in FA versus 4 fliers in FA (hyperbole to bring home the point) for the same money.   And the player or two, I'd sign are lower risk guys -- not aging players like Bruce Smith or known head cases like Haynesworth.

 

Or even if you aren't swinging for the fences go for doubles -- the year they signed Griffin, Springs, Marcus Washington -- I liked that crop.  Bruce's closest version to that was 2017.  

 

I agree Vinny was further down the pecking order than Bruce aside from perhaps the Zorn years.  Ironically it was the Zorn years that did him in with Dan.

 

I agree with everything about this post except the Johnson vs. George point. 

 

And, overall, I agree with that point...just not that season. George clearly outplayed Johnson while Norv was still the coach. Now, don't get me wrong, you couldn't have started the season with George. We had just come off a division title and were a kick away from the NFC Championship Game. So I'm in no way saying that George should have been the starter. But, something was wrong with Brad Johnson from week 1 and he never really settled in. 

 

But, if somehow Snyder had mandated that his new toy at QB start the season, I believe we'd have won more games. He outperformed Johnson in most metrics, and that includes a couple disaster games late in the year after the coaching change took place (which put our offense all out of sorts). 

 

Anyway, I'm sure I'm wrong, but part of me thinks that if George would have started that Giants game, we would have won it and been 8-5 with 3 games to play (I think he came in with the score 9-0 and got us very close to a 10-9 win). 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I agree with everything about this post except the Johnson vs. George point. 

 

And, overall, I agree with that point...just not that season. George clearly outplayed Johnson while Norv was still the coach. Now, don't get me wrong, you couldn't have started the season with George. We had just come off a division title and were a kick away from the NFC Championship Game. So I'm in no way saying that George should have been the starter. But, something was wrong with Brad Johnson from week 1 and he never really settled in. 

 

But, if somehow Snyder had mandated that his new toy at QB start the season, I believe we'd have won more games. He outperformed Johnson in most metrics, and that includes a couple disaster games late in the year after the coaching change took place (which put our offense all out of sorts). 

 

Anyway, I'm sure I'm wrong, but part of me thinks that if George would have started that Giants game, we would have won it and been 8-5 with 3 games to play (I think he came in with the score 9-0 and got us very close to a 10-9 win). 

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  Some seasons I can recall clearly, the 2000 one not so much so the George-Johnson stuff blended in my mind through the Marty year.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  Some seasons I can recall clearly, the 2000 one not so much so the George-Johnson stuff blended in my mind through the Marty year.  

 

Oh yeah, he was AWFUL in the Marty year and just seemed disinterested in running that offense. The 2000 season he destroyed the Rams on MNF, played a horrible game vs. Arizona, played well in a loss to Philly, and then relieved Johnson vs. New York and scored a TD then got us into near-FG range (we missed) to try to steal that game. Then Turner was fired (probably in part for sticking with Johnson) and we were killed in back-to-back weeks vs. Dallas and Pittsburgh where he didn't look too good. 

 

For the season, his numbers were better than Johnson's. Admittedly they still weren't great numbers, but he had a higher Y/A, a higher TD percentage, a lower INT percentage, etc. We lost 3-4 games that year by a FG or less with an offense that took a full step back from 1999. Now, we had a horrible kicking game, so that's not on Johnson, but it just feels like one more quality drive per game could have turned 8-8 into 11-5 that year. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Bruce on the comeback trial.  I know they loved the dude that draft, I did, too.  But clearly seems like a bad guy.

 

 

 

[Peregrine]

And Bruce, knowing his job is on the line, desperately signs an abuser on the anniversary of Sean Taylors death.

 

Absolute scum.

[bird_1972]

2 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

And Bruce, knowing his job is on the line, desperately signs an abuser on the anniversary of Sean Taylors death.

 

Absolute scum.

 

He's not only bad at his job, he has little to no character. 

 

Same goes for ownership.

 

This franchise deserves the dismal attendance they get at home games.

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Bruce on the comeback trial.  I know they loved the dude that draft, I did, too.  But clearly seems like a bad guy.

 

Edit

 

What complete piece of garbage! Dude is morally bankrupt. I was not his biggest fan before but this puts him in Dan Snyder territory - no way back. 

 

No excuse for this. Talk about desperate. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Case in point, Redskins have one of the only operations where a tweet like that makes sense, no one knows who made the call because the structure isn't easy to follow.  Technically it should be Bruce though since he has the power.  So tough for me to see this without him being at least one of the yes votes.

 

 

 

[Hooper]

56 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

He's not only bad at his job, he has little to no character. 

 

Same goes for ownership.

 

It's why Kirk was so willing to roll the dice on himself. He thought Dan and Bruce were bad people. Has told folks that.

[Tsailand]

Quote

Don't know who ultimately made the final decision.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2018/11/27/redskins-claim-reuben-foster-who-was-arrested-saturday-domestic-violence-charge-off-waivers/?utm_term=.b42799ab1739

Team decision-makers were said to be divided over whether to claim Foster. Redskins President Bruce Allen masterminded the decision to claim him, an NFL official with knowledge of the Redskins' deliberations said, adding that the front office was far from unanimous about the idea.