The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[88Comrade2000]

31 minutes ago, Gibbs828791 said:

Bruce is here for a much bigger picture that the fans dont understand and I agree doesnt help winning...he is here to get a new stadium..Dan needs him for that and Bruce knows it!

And who is going to pay for this stadium?  Dan Snyder will never get anyone in the D.C. area to build him a new stadium.

[Voice_of_Reason]

@Skinsinparadise 100% spot on.

 

I’ll add to this that they have the Giants the next week at home, who are playing better.  And the Skins typically don’t sweep the Giants. And the stadium would probably not be full...

 

IF the Skins lose to all three division teams in 2 weeks, blow a 2 game lead in the division to fall under .500, I could see Dan finally, after what really is 5 years of being patient, just not able to control himself anymore and going on an emotional rant and just fire everybody.  He’s made emotional in-season coaching changes before, though it was close to 20 years ago. 

 

Regardless, I can’t see how anybody survives going from 6-3 to 6-7 with three straight division losses, 2 on national television.  

 

He migt wait wait until after the season, but at that point the season would be over for all practical purposes.

 

Bruce could argue injuries, and that Jay screwed it up, but at the end of the day, the roster is Bruce’s responsibility, and he hired Jay.  It’s a really tough look if you try to blame a guy who works for you that you hired.  

 

So I’d have to think Dan would finally have had enough of Bruce.

 

Now, it’s POSSIBLE Dan moves him sideways and promotes somebody from within, like Bruce becomes the non-football ops president Or special consultant or something, and they promote Kyle Smith or something like that.  Of course, nobody will believe Bruce isn’t in charge if he has any role in the organization.

 

24 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

And who is going to pay for this stadium?  Dan Snyder will never get anyone in the D.C. area to build him a new stadium.

That’s absolutely not true.

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’s add to it rhatbhey have the Giants the next week at home,

Did you have a stroke during this sentence?

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Rufus T Firefly said:

Did you have a stroke during this sentence?

Haha.  Typing on phone, but I appreciate the concern for my health and well-being...

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise 100% spot on.

 

I’ll add to this that they have the Giants the next week at home, who are playing better.  And the Skins typically don’t sweep the Giants. And the stadium would probably not be full...

 

IF the Skins lose to all three division teams in 2 weeks, blow a 2 game lead in the division to fall under .500, I could see Dan finally, after what really is 5 years of being patient, just not able to control himself anymore and going on an emotional rant and just fire everybody.  He’s made emotional in-season coaching changes before, though it was close to 20 years ago. 

 

Regardless, I can’t see how anybody survives going from 6-3 to 6-7 with three straight division losses, 2 on national television.  

 

 

While as you know I am not in the same camp as you as to Jay.  i do agree regardless that its a do or die type of season.   

 

And these back to back game against division rivals on national TV -- both games likely for first place is an odd coincidence setting up the perfect storm for better or worse as to a high profile test for this organization. 

 

But yeah I agree if they lose to every team in the division in back to back to back games, two on prime time TV -- heads will very likely roll.  I think losing back to back to Dallas and the Eagles and missing the playoffs would be enough to ensure heads will roll.  But yeah a Giants loss in addition to that would be insult to injury.  And that's without even factoring the stands being empty and the Alex contract looking conspicuously ridiculous with serious cap ramifications.

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

While as you know I am not in the same camp as you as to Jay.  i do agree regardless that its a do or die type of season.   

 

And these back to back game against division rivals on national TV -- both games likely for first place is an odd coincidence setting up the perfect storm for better or worse as to a high profile test for this organization. 

 

But yeah I agree if they lose to every team in the division in back to back to back games, two on prime time TV -- heads will very likely roll.  I think losing back to back to Dallas and the Eagles and missing the playoffs would be enough to ensure heads will roll.  But yeah a Giants loss in addition to that would be insult to injury.  And that's without even factoring the stands being empty and the Alex contract looking conspicuously ridiculous with serious cap ramifications.

Do you, in your gut, not what you WANT, but in your gut do you think they win the next 2 weeks?

 

I think they can if they are well prepared and coached.  I just don’t see it happening.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Do you, in your gut, not what you WANT, but in your gut do you think they win the next 2 weeks?

 

I think they can if they are well prepared and coached.  I just don’t see it happening.

My gut is they lose to Philly and then beat the Giants.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Do you, in your gut, not what you WANT, but in your gut do you think they win the next 2 weeks?

 

I think they can if they are well prepared and coached.  I just don’t see it happening.

Not that you asked me, but since when have I ever cared about that...

 

My gut says they absolutely lose on Monday night.  I’d replace prepared and coached in your statement with can run the ball and force turnovers.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

My gut is they lose to Philly and then beat the Giants.

My gut tells me they lose both in embarrassing fashion OR they win both in impressive fashion.

 

For some reason I don’t see a split.  If they beat the Eagles it’s because McCoy with a week of practice catches fire, and Jay is able to take advantage of a QB who knows the system...

 

If I had to guess, I think they lose both.

 

I really hope my gut is wrong. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not that you asked me, but since when have I ever cared about that...

 

My gut says they absolutely lose on Monday night.  I’d replace prepared and coached in your statement with can run the ball and force turnovers.

If they’re well coached and prepare, with a good game plan and good play calling, I bet they could run the ball.  Turnovers, yeah, that’s big.

 

If Kyle was the OC or HC, they’d be able to run the ball for sure.  Say what you want about the Shanahans, they can scheme up a run game with just about anybody.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My gut tells me they lose both in embarrassing fashion OR they win both in impressive fashion.

 

For some reason I don’t see a split.  If they beat the Eagles it’s because McCoy with a week of practice catches fire, and Jay is able to take advantage of a QB who knows the system...

 

If I had to guess, I think they lose both.

 

I really hope my gut is wrong. 

I dont feel strongly about any scenario. But psychologically speaking, losing on MNF with all the world watching and bouncing back the next week with an edge to beat the Giants would sort of fit the narrative that I am used to.

 

If they lose back to back to the Eagles and Giants, the wheels would likely fall off.

 

Plenty of indications that Dan could not psychologically deal with the loss against the Giants at the end of the 2016 season.

 

So losing 3 in a row to the NFC East coupled with the backdrop of Qb issues moving forward and also people now showing up to games. Dan's level of anger would likely be insane.

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I dont feel strongly about any scenario. But psychologically speaking, losing on MNF with all the world watching and bouncing back the next week with an edge to beat the Giants would sort of fit the narrative that I am used to.

 

I think psychologically, if they lose 3 in a row, 2 in prime time, they’re not going to regroup for the Giants, they’ll fold.  Similar thing happened in 2016 after they lost a heart breaker to Dallas on Thanksgiving, they had nothing left and laid an egg against a bad Arizona team.  

 

With the season in the balance last year, they were run out of the building against the Chargers.

 

Quote

If they lose back to back to the Eagles and Giants, the wheels would likely fall off.

I think the wheels come off if they lose to Philly, the Giants game is probably the car wreck after...

 

Quote

Plenty of indications that Dan could not psychologically deal with the loss against the Giants at the end of the 2016 season.

He has every right to be furious, and should have made a change then.

 

Quote

So losing 3 in a row to the NFC East coupled with the backdrop of Qb issues moving forward and also people now showing up to games. Dan's level of anger would likely be insane.

And it would be completely justified.  The whole organization has underperformed. Coaching, FO, everyone.  Ultimately it falls on Bruce for hiring Jay and then with roster construction.  If they lose 4 in a row, Bruce has to go, Jay needs to go with him.

[88Comrade2000]

If they lose to both the Eagles and Giants; then odds are strong they don't win another game or at best, only the Jaguars game..  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I think the wheels come off if they lose to Philly, the Giants game is probably the car wreck after...

 

 

I agree, its sort of what I said in another post

 

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

He has every right to be furious, and should have made a change then.

 

 

Agree and disagree.  disagree at the target of the animosity.  I'd be furious at Bruce if it went on.  And Dan's anger-emotion hasn't always been a good thing.

 

 

 

[Dissident2]

I simply don't think they put all their chips on the table as they should've against Dallas. I think they treated that as just the next game, when it was THE game. That was the game they had to have. They'd be two up on everyone right now, and with the Saints coming up, Dallas would just about be out of the playoff equation with an expected loss. They have no ability to impose their will in any facet of their game, from the broad perspective to what happens on the field from play to play. 

 

The Giants are in a similar spot this year, and I think the Redskins are a lot closer to them than they are to the Eagles and Cowboys, even with the similar record. My gut tells me they lose on MNF by at least 10, but they may well pull out a squeaker against the Giants. I think the loss yesterday to the Eagles took the Giants' will. Their season is officially done. 

 

I heard Bruce "Coors Lite" Allen before the game last week talking about Jerry Jones and how much fun it would be to ruin his Thanksgiving, blah, blah, blah. Reminded me of his far-superior Dad when he stood on the sidelines and yelled derisively, "TEX SCHRAMM, ROGER STAUBACH AND COMPANY ..." Only difference was, his Dad knew how to back up his talk with actual football knowledge and the ability to inspire and lead people. 

 

Here ends my stream of consciousness rant. Time to go to work and face the abuse that's coming from the office's resident Dallas fan. Thanks again, Redskins. 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Agree and disagree.  disagree at the target of the animosity.  I'd be furious at Bruce if it went on.  And Dan's anger-emotion hasn't always been a good thing.

I’d be furious at both, and both would deserve it for different reasons.

[Skinsinparadise]

52 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’d be furious at both, and both would deserve it for different reasons.

 

If they don't make the playoffs the 4 things that seem striking in that process:  QB, WR, secondary depth, O line depth.  I disagree that the roster as its currently constructed is a winner. 

 

A QB who is ranked 25th in the league in QBR (and now we got his back up), with 33 year old Adrian Peterson being the bell cow and has faded of late.  No Richardson, Crowder, Thompson.  2 backup lineman.  The defense slipping, now ranked 27th in the league in yards.   That doesn't have a feel to me as a playoff roster.

 

If you want to make the case that 5 years is enough for Jay regardless of excuses.  OK, I get that.   But the other part of that is you got plenty of "hot shot" coordinators from around the league fail as head coaches.  It's not that easy to find the next guy.

 

GM to me by a mile is the #1 issue.  If they don't make the playoffs the three things that are stuck in my mind the loudest.

 

A.  Bruce talking about all these guys coming back from injury so that's akin to have numerous upgrades from last year.  Forgot how he said it but it came off to me as an explanation of why they weren't aggressive in FA and his positive vibe to this season.  My take to this (and if I recall you agreed) was its perfectly plausible that injury prone players coming off of injury can indeed be injury prone again.

 

B.  Finlay saying in multiple interviews that his sources in the Fo have told him that they are brimming with confidence in the FO that they have a really good roster and they think they will win the division.  Finlay using the word arrogant to describe it multiple times. 

 

C.  The QB position.   The constant arrogance and bravado after each move under Bruce, starting with the McNabb move through today.    And Jay is guilty of this too but nowhere to the same degree because he chimed too about how Alex is an upgrade, gushing and gushing.  The comments and actions over the years about the QB position become more hilarious over time.   Heck I'd even kick in the episodes that didn't thankfully go down like Dan swooning over Mark Sanchez's charm and wanting him -- scouts on the team talking Dan out of his man crush on Brady Quinn.  On and on.

 

D.  If I can have a dollar for how many people said on the FA thread, what about depth on O line and CB -- especially O line.  What if they get hurt again, we got no fortification on the interior.  Well.....

 

Having said all that, they have an opportunity to take this.  And I am not pessimistic on that front.  I think its doable.  But if they don't -- I see those 4 things looming large in it all. 

[OVCChairman]

11 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise 100% spot on.

 

I’ll add to this that they have the Giants the next week at home, who are playing better.  And the Skins typically don’t sweep the Giants. And the stadium would probably not be full...

 

IF the Skins lose to all three division teams in 2 weeks, blow a 2 game lead in the division to fall under .500, I could see Dan finally, after what really is 5 years of being patient, just not able to control himself anymore and going on an emotional rant and just fire everybody.  He’s made emotional in-season coaching changes before, though it was close to 20 years ago. 

 

Regardless, I can’t see how anybody survives going from 6-3 to 6-7 with three straight division losses, 2 on national television.  

 

He migt wait wait until after the season, but at that point the season would be over for all practical purposes.

 

Bruce could argue injuries, and that Jay screwed it up, but at the end of the day, the roster is Bruce’s responsibility, and he hired Jay.  It’s a really tough look if you try to blame a guy who works for you that you hired.  

 

So I’d have to think Dan would finally have had enough of Bruce.

 

Now, it’s POSSIBLE Dan moves him sideways and promotes somebody from within, like Bruce becomes the non-football ops president Or special consultant or something, and they promote Kyle Smith or something like that.  Of course, nobody will believe Bruce isn’t in charge if he has any role in the organization.

 

That’s absolutely not true.

 

 

 

I don't think we should forget that Dan brought in some shiny new toys to put butts in the seats.  Those shiny new toys came straight from the NFL offices in NY.  Those shiny new toys have already gotten more praise than Bruce ever did as team president.  Brian Lafemina is a very smart individual, and he's likely, very quickly, going to be in Dan's ear about the skid mark that is Bruce.  Yeah, you kept your pants from getting dirty, but if you would have wiped correctly we may not have ever had to worry about it.  

 

Bruce may have some influence with the stadium deal, but he can't be THIS important to keep on.  In 3 years if this team is selling out again, fighting for the division on a regular basis, and making money.... the 'need' for Bruce is gone.  There will be PLENTY of opportunity for the stadium deal and the surrounding areas will be falling over themselves to try to get a piece of it.  

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

 

I don't think we should forget that Dan brought in some shiny new toys to put butts in the seats.  Those shiny new toys came straight from the NFL offices in NY.  Those shiny new toys have already gotten more praise than Bruce ever did as team president.  Brian Lafemina is a very smart individual, and he's likely, very quickly, going to be in Dan's ear about the skid mark that is Bruce.  Yeah, you kept your pants from getting dirty, but if you would have wiped correctly we may not have ever had to worry about it.  

 

Bruce may have some influence with the stadium deal, but he can't be THIS important to keep on.  In 3 years if this team is selling out again, fighting for the division on a regular basis, and making money.... the 'need' for Bruce is gone.  There will be PLENTY of opportunity for the stadium deal and the surrounding areas will be falling over themselves to try to get a piece of it.  

 

I'd add to this while we got I don't know maybe 4 or 5 people on this board (in the sea of thousands that I presume feel otherwise) defending Bruce, its about the same more or less it seems on twitter and talk radio.  Just some straggler albeit vocal defenders.  I saw a petition circulating a last off season with almost 10,000 signatures from fans asking Dan to get rid of Bruce.  I got no doubt if you did a favorability style poll right now on Bruce his numbers would be beyond abysmal. 

 

Personally, I don't care if the dude is reassigned to another part of the team.  Be in charge of the stadium and alumni and he could do his cheerleading routine.  But if the dude has final say on personnel and maintains the highest position within the team aside from the owner -- and the dude as Al Galdi likes to say maybe the most unpopular and vilified DC sports figure in history - I don't think it will escape Dan forever that getting rid of Bruce from that perch would be the biggest PR move he could make. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

 

Since we've dropped 3 of 4 after staking ourselves to a 5-2 start, I am starting to look at the big picture again. I think I'm pretty sure that I want an obvious outcome to present itself...

 

Meaning, I either want to win 4 or 5 games to end the season strong or I want to this team to bottom out. I don't want another nebulous 8-8 finish with a bunch of injury caveats. Obviously, my preference is for this team to rise up, lean on its continuity and grit, and take control of this division. But, if they aren't going to do that, let's make the decision clear as day for Snyder and go 1-4 or 0-5 down the stretch. 

 

I think another non-playoff season should be the end of the road for Allen and, by extension, Gruden. I am willing to have more patience with Gruden because I do think injuries are a more valid excuse for a coach than a VP of Football Operations. After all, when injuries become expected year-to-year that has to say SOMETHING about football operations (types of players we draft or extend, training staff, something) but it could be something outside the control of the coach. Be that as it may, you can't fire Allen and keep Gruden (unless the new guy wants to). 

 

So - even though I think our absolute ceiling is winning a home game in the wild card round and getting destroyed in New Orleans or LA in the divisional round, that's still my hope. If we can't do that, let's blow this whole thing up. 

[OVCChairman]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd add to this while we got I don't know maybe 4 or 5 people on this board in the sea of thousands defending Bruce, its about the same more or less it seems on twitter and talk radio.  Just some straggler albeit vocal defenders.  I saw a petition circulating a last off season with almost 10,000 signatures from fans asking Dan to get rid of Bruce.  I got no doubt if you did a favorability style poll right now on Bruce his numbers would be beyond abysmal. 

 

Personally, I don't care if the dude is reassigned to another part of the team.  Be in charge of the stadium and alumni and he could do his cheerleading routine.  But if the dude has final say on personnel and maintains the highest position within the team aside from the owner -- and the dude as Al Galdi likes to say maybe the most unpopular and vilified DC sports figure in history - I don't think it will escape Dan forever that getting rid of Bruce from that perch would be the biggest PR move he could make. 

And if Brian Lafemina is smart, these are the things he's showing Dan.  You want me to sell out the stadium?  You want me increase revenue?  Look how many people are publicly saying they aren't buying Redskins gear until XXXXX is changed.  How many saying they refuse to support the team til XXXXX happens.  I don't disagree with you (blah... double negative) regarding reassigning him.... but I don't think that's enough.  This entire schematic structure needs a shock to the system.  I think Doug is doing good things.. I like Smith and Schaeffer, and a lot of the front office seems to be more than competent... but when you have 15 competent people reporting to 1 guy who isn't... very quickly the talent has a hard ceiling.  Positive things tend to happen, but they're all filtered and a lot of other positive things are dismissed or avoided.  

 

Like others have stated... bring in a new GM, let him pick his coach.  There's a good football team here, that with the right leadership, has the ability to truly compete as soon as next season.  

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Since we've dropped 3 of 4 after staking ourselves to a 5-2 start, I am starting to look at the big picture again. I think I'm pretty sure that I want an obvious outcome to present itself...

 

Meaning, I either want to win 4 or 5 games to end the season strong or I want to this team to bottom out. I don't want another nebulous 8-8 finish with a bunch of injury caveats. Obviously, my preference is for this team to rise up, lean on its continuity and grit, and take control of this division. But, if they aren't going to do that, let's make the decision clear as day for Snyder and go 1-4 or 0-5 down the stretch. 

 

I think another non-playoff season should be the end of the road for Allen and, by extension, Gruden. I am willing to have more patience with Gruden because I do think injuries are a more valid excuse for a coach than a VP of Football Operations. After all, when injuries become expected year-to-year that has to say SOMETHING about football operations (types of players we draft or extend, training staff, something) but it could be something outside the control of the coach. Be that as it may, you can't fire Allen and keep Gruden (unless the new guy wants to). 

 

So - even though I think our absolute ceiling is winning a home game in the wild card round and getting destroyed in New Orleans or LA in the divisional round, that's still my hope. If we can't do that, let's blow this whole thing up. 

 

If they make the POs and win a game, they all deserve to come back regardless of history. I know many of the injuries are self-inflicted in that they knew there was a high likelihood they would be injured. But it still would be a herculean effort to get them to the POs and win a game - my personal criteria for keeping Jay. 

 

If they crash and burn - which is exactly what I expect - The only scenario I see keeping Jay is if Kyle is promoted to GM and he wants to stake his first job of GM on Jay. I would not. It's not a knock on Jay as much as if I am hired to change/fix things, I want my guy. Every FO move under Dan has included some kind of hold over or force fed parts to the person coming in. Even Bruce had MS thrust on him - that was Dan's choice for HC, not Bruce's. 

 

If they clean house - truly clean house. New GM, new HC, and within 2 yrs a new QB. Unless he retires Alex is on the books through 2020. But I am not sure he ever plays again. The new GM coming in should start looking for their QB immediately after getting their HC in house. That should not be Jay Gruden being forced on them. 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Since we've dropped 3 of 4 after staking ourselves to a 5-2 start, I am starting to look at the big picture again. I think I'm pretty sure that I want an obvious outcome to present itself...

 

Agreed.  I'd love for the running game to get going again allowing Colt to do enough to win 3 or 4 of the next 5.  Unfortunately, what feels most likely to happen is the absolute worst scenario where we win a few more to get to .500 but not enough to make the playoffs.

[NoVaSkins21]

13 hours ago, Gibbs828791 said:

Bruce is here for a much bigger picture that the fans dont understand and I agree doesnt help winning...he is here to get a new stadium..Dan needs him for that and Bruce knows it!

 

So sad, but probably true

[goskins10]

14 hours ago, Gibbs828791 said:

Bruce is here for a much bigger picture that the fans dont understand and I agree doesnt help winning...he is here to get a new stadium..Dan needs him for that and Bruce knows it!

 

I am pretty sure most fans are aware of this. I know most everyone on this board is aware of it and from what I can tell so does most everyone else. 

 

That does not mean we cannot still voice our objections. Also, if he is put in the corner to do nothing but work on the new stadium I would be Ok with that. Just get him the **** out of football operations!