Mooka Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, NoCalMike said: Yes. This has been common knowledge for a long time. Totally agree. What I am asking though is now that the GOP has decided they hate their own plan from the 90's.....what is their current proposal? The GOP has passed multiple versions of basically the same bill over the last 8+ years. (mostly DOA or veto'd by Obama) They're all variations of Tom Price's plan who was Health Sec for like 10 seconds under Trump. Its basically Obamacare-light, with weaker caps, and it tackles pre-existing conditions with some sort of concurrent coverage. (meaning they're covered if you have concurrent coverage, something like 18months) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 25 minutes ago, tshile said: Will sanders allow for healthcare legislation that works towards fixing the existing system and doesn’t incorporate the fundamentals he’s been campaigning for since 2015? is the anti-establishment pseudo democrat going to do that? maybe he has said he would, I could have easily missed that. I don't think he has clarified but I highly, highly doubt that he is that much of an ideologue that he would completely nuke improvements to our healthcare system because he didn't get everything on his wishlist. I don't think Bernie is Obama but Obama also run much farther to the left of how he eventually governed. And Bernie's left is quite to the left of BO, but I expect that he will move willingly or reluctantly closer to the center because his parties legislative caucus is not philosophically aligned with him. A President obstructing major legislation of his own party would be almost unheard off. It is pretty much the other way around typically (which is a good thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, No Excuses said: I don't think he has clarified but I highly, highly doubt that he is that much of an ideologue that he would completely nuke improvements to our healthcare system because he didn't get everything on his wishlist. I don't think Bernie is Obama but Obama also run much farther to the left of how he eventually governed. And Bernie's left is quite to the left of BO, but I expect that he will move willingly or reluctantly closer to the center because his parties legislative caucus is not philosophically aligned with him. A President obstructing major legislation of his own party would be almost unheard off. It is pretty much the other way around typically (which is a good thing). Based on Bernie's history, his recent behavior, and the people he surrounds himself with, what makes you think he will moderate his plans, rather than push back on those who disagree with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, bearrock said: Would you mind linking that post? I must have missed it (Genuine request. No sarcasm/snark. And I won't necro respond to an old post, just wanted to read the discussion) Here is the main post - it's Bernie's site. There are many additional links that provide more detail including a bill he introduced in 2013. I have that link also. I have also included several other links that break down how things get paid for. Not to mention that even the most conservative estimates show a net savings in health care for the US under a single payer system or even Medicare for all, which is really what he is proposing. I do not agree with the $5.2T over 10 yrs Bernie has on his page. That is inflated. But more reasonable estimates put the net savings at closer to $2T over 10 yrs. https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/ https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/american-health-security-act-of-2013?inline=file https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all?inline=file - This is directly from Bernie's office - it's a word document. It also discusses some of the savings expected, for example admin costs and lower prescription drug prices. https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-does-bernie-pay-his-major-plans/ - This literally came out yesterday. It was reference in an article from The Hill. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/484454-sanders-releases-list-of-how-to-pay-for-his-proposals - The hill article. If you are looking for anything more detailed,. it does not exist, nor does it exist for any other candidate. I post Warren as I know she is your candidate. But not as some kind of gotcha - in fact the opposite. She is probably the closest in alignment with Bernie on health care. But not sure people realize just how close. So I see it as a pretty fair comparison. Interesting reads either way. https://www.npr.org/2019/11/01/775339519/heres-how-warren-finds-20-5-trillion-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all Here is an article on Warren's plan and it's similar to where Bernie plans to get them money. She i believe makes a big mistake in saying she would never raise taxes. This is pretty unrealistic unless you mean net. That is not what she has said but may be what she meant. if she means net, then fair enough. if not, i think that's a broken promise waiting to happen. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/01/elizabeth-warren-releases-plan-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all.html This is a really interesting article about where Warren plans to get the money. I mean that honestly. No sarcasm. I have some doubts about the numbers but I have some doubts about some of Bernie's number too. The one that really stands out to me here is $2.3T in tax law enforcement. That is the only one that I find pretty ahrd to believe she can pull off. But hey. maybe she can. That would be awesome if so - regardless of health care. That's $2.3T people are stealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Bernie likely would have to compromise to get anything passed, especially with the current gov't, however what makes anyone think the GOP is willing to negotiate? We all saw their approach when Obama attempted to take a very middle of the road approach to the healthcare system. The GOP turned on their own ideas. That was their idea of negotiating. Obama tried to work with them for over a year on it and when it finally passed they pretended like it was "rammed down throats" That is currently the GOP's idea of compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 52 minutes ago, visionary said: what makes you think he will moderate his plans, rather than push back on those who disagree with them? Political reality. If Dems control Congress, he can either get nothing done or set the agenda and work on compromise bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, No Excuses said: 1 hour ago, tshile said: I don't think he has clarified but I highly, highly doubt that he is that much of an ideologue that he would completely nuke improvements to our healthcare system because he didn't get everything on his wishlist. See I don’t disagree with this specific statement but I’m wondering how “everything on his wishlist” works like... if it’s improvements on ACA without a public option does he accept that. I’m inclined to say no but I don’t actually know how he’d feel about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 18 minutes ago, tshile said: See I don’t disagree with this specific statement but I’m wondering how “everything on his wishlist” works like... if it’s improvements on ACA without a public option does he accept that. I’m inclined to say no but I don’t actually know how he’d feel about that... If only there was some event where journalists from big news organizations could get the candidates together and ask these kind of penetrating questions. If only.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 Bernie better pick Warren as he veep. If he wins, maybe the old ticker gives out and Warren can prez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, NoCalMike said: Bernie likely would have to compromise to get anything passed, especially with the current gov't, however what makes anyone think the GOP is willing to negotiate? We all saw their approach when Obama attempted to take a very middle of the road approach to the healthcare system. That is currently the GOP's idea of compromise. Bernie will be able to do jack if he has a GOP Senate. It will be like the last 2 years of Obama’s term. If he has a GOP house, them will impeach him for Russian interference or something like that and it’s possible the Senate removes him since the Dems won’t really be pro Bernie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedskinsFan44 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Re the Biden Senate Quote I'm seeing a lot of people saying it was taken out of context as he was telling a story about running for the Senate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 There’s another debate tonight? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 @goskins10 My understanding of the term “public option” is that it would allow anyone that would prefer the govt. system to choose it whether they have an employer sponsored plan or not. This allows anyone that wants it to have it, and vice versa. The beauty in using it as the “boil a frog” way to single payer is that the employers and to a lesser degree the individuals would be the ones making the call until such time that the private plans wither away. The difference between Warren and Bernie is that she actually has plans to pay for her proposals that include pesky, minuscule details like projected cost. Similarly, she’s also managed to be very productive during her time in the Senate. Bernie, not so much. Big things need to be done. Other than POTUS declarations, I have more confidence in Warren to get some of them done more so than Bernie. Not only do I believe it based on her record, but also because there’s no way Bernie the socialist can get elected. OTOH, I said the same about Tя☭mp so who knows. Finally, Bernie has said some troubling things when it comes to race. If he gets the nom, it’ll be the irresistible force of my white hot hatred and revulsion of Tя☭mp vs. the immovable object of the longer term viability of the Dems and the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 9 hours ago, Riggo-toni said: Now millennials associate socialism with competent governance, whereas free markets are mega deficits and handouts to farmers. Bernie is a genuine socialist, a pathological ideologue, which worries the hell out of me, but calling him out as such no longer has any sting. Despite what millennials and Bernie thinks, he can’t win the presidency on them alone. He needs at least a decent portion of the GenXers and Baby Boomers to vote for him. My guess a good chunk of them will not, especially baby boomers. They will buy the socialism/ commi attack ads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 9 hours ago, Riggo-toni said: Now millennials associate socialism with competent governance, whereas free markets are mega deficits and handouts to farmers. Bernie is a genuine socialist, a pathological ideologue, which worries the hell out of me, but calling him out as such no longer has any sting. So, we live on 2 different sides of the city. What are people saying over there? Trump supporters over here love me, but know better than to talk about it. Some are stupid and don't even think about their words, like "tearing down the mall means they're putting apartments up for more blacks" ...just dumbassery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, No Excuses said: Political reality. If Dems control Congress, he can either get nothing done or set the agenda and work on compromise bills. Obama understood he couldnt get everything he wanted in ACA, so set it up in way that would be hard to get rid of and sitting their waiting for someone to improve on it. That's what has to do for MFA, compromise on what it will cover for someone to improve that later, but get the universal coverage that will be impossible for the public to give up, similar to preexisting conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 40 minutes ago, The Sisko said: @goskins10 My understanding of the term “public option” is that it would allow anyone that would prefer the govt. system to choose it whether they have an employer sponsored plan or not. This allows anyone that wants it to have it, and vice versa. The beauty in using it as the “boil a frog” way to single payer is that the employers and to a lesser degree the individuals would be the ones making the call until such time that the private plans wither away. The difference between Warren and Bernie is that she actually has plans to pay for her proposals that include pesky, minuscule details like projected cost. Similarly, she’s also managed to be very productive during her time in the Senate. Bernie, not so much. Big things need to be done. Other than POTUS declarations, I have more confidence in Warren to get some of them done more so than Bernie. Not only do I believe it based on her record, but also because there’s no way Bernie the socialist can get elected. OTOH, I said the same about Tя☭mp so who knows. edit Bernie has indeed posted how he plans to pay for his plans. I just posted several resources about how he plans to get the money. I also posted how Warren plans to raise the money and many parts are similar. There are claims by both I believe and some that i don't believe. You can decide you disagree, but people need to stop saying he has not said how he is going to pay for it. It's all over the place and many parts are the same as how Warren plans to pay. And at least he acknowledges taxes will go up. She claims she can do it without raising taxes. In fairness, I believe she meant net raise taxes when including not paying deductibles or insurance premiums. But that is not what she said and she will be grilled on it as when pressed she will have to make what will appear to be a retraction. I know this becasue $8.8T of her plan to raise money comes from people not paying insurance premiums or deductibles. So almost half. She also has $2.3T is enforcing tax code. I find that a bit hard to believe but fair enough. It may be there. That's $11.1T of the $20T she says she needs. Most of the rest is from raising taxes, just like Bernie's plan. There are claims of Bernie's I have my doubts about too. But they are there. Here is the post. I deleted most of it for space. But it's on this page. 2 hours ago, goskins10 said: Here is the main post - it's Bernie's site. There are many additional links that provide more detail including a bill he introduced in 2013. I have that link also. I have also included several other links that break down how things get paid for. Not to mention that even the most conservative estimates show a net savings in health care for the US under a single payer system or even Medicare for all, which is really what he is proposing. I do not agree with the $5.2T over 10 yrs Bernie has on his page. That is inflated. But more reasonable estimates put the net savings at closer to $2T over 10 yrs. I see Warren has exponentially less electable than Sanders. The same hate for Hillary will be thrust on Warren. She will easily be associated with the Clinton's and cast as Hillary 2.0 which yes is much more frightening to many lower income undecided than Bernie. People are forgetting the a significant number of independents and undecided people who voted for trump did so becasue they both hated Hillary but more importantly wanted Bernie and were pissed that he got screwed out of the nomination. Childish? Of course. Bernie owns some of that. He needed to deliver his base to Hillary and he did a piss poor job of it. Instead he pouted. But I believe he did learn from it. And is why he is doing so well in these early primaries. On that note, SC and then Super Tuesday will be the difference maker. In 1984 (not 1988), Gary Hart was cruising against Mondale. He came 2 pts from carrying Super Tuesday. But he lost GA which kept the corporate liberal elite choice of Mondale alive. Mondale went on to narrowly beat Hart. Would Gary have beaten Reagan? Don't know. But I think he had a better chance. He would have carried more than one state I believe. He may have also been smart enough NOT to choose Geraldine Ferraro, the dems version of Sarah Palin as VP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said: Bernie better pick Warren as he veep. He wont win unless he does. 1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said: If he wins, maybe the old ticker gives out and Warren can prez. They both over 70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: yeah, you’re right. Just need to require every employee to rise and form a union out of thin air or individually rise up against your owner placing a huge target on your back. And if I win this, my victory secures me the option of buying another high priced plan on the marketplace for which I wouldn’t qualify for in many cases all while dealing with the fact that I spat in the face of the owner who signs my paychecks. I don’t know if you are being deceitful or just out of touch because you’ve been in the military for so long but that’s not a viable solution for the majority of people in the real world, even if it has worked anecdotally. but yeah, everyone that doesn’t form a union at work or clash with their management over converting health insurance benefits into wages is just lazy. 👍🏻 Maybe I have been in the military too long but I also have a wife who works heavily in the field and doesn’t mind correcting me when I don’t know how things work in the civilian world. And I also work with a lot of contractors who give me the scoop since I’m close to retirement. Without knowing what you do, how many people work at your company, etc I can’t say how realistic it would be for you to negotiate with your employer for health care. But I believe you referenced your salary package so I’m assuming you aren’t flipping burgers. My wife negotiated healthcare as part of her salary package (it was easy because it was pretty much “**** Tricare doesn’t cover”). I also know that people do, or at least should, consider more than just their salary when looking for employment. Health care, days of leave, and other perks can and should be negotiated just as much as the paycheck itself. I think this IS an option for a large portion of the work force, it just isn’t one that is used. And it is sad because it really could be. But people focus more on the actual money that goes into their account than they do with the non-monetary compensation. If you are just pointing out that health care and the cost of it is ****ed up in this country, you will get no argument from me. But to say you don’t have a choice is just wrong. And I think the current way of going about and some of the proposed fixes are ludicrous. You can say I am just out of touch because I’ve been in the military for so long but remember that is also the same amount of time under government-run health care. I have another point/question for the crowd but I’ll put it in the Obamacare thread since it isn’t really election related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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