Update: RIP John McCain

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

20 bucks says if McCain wasn't an old white Republican, Benning wouldn't be derailing what was a nice thread.

If I was here in 2008, I would have said don't forget Chappaquiddick.

 

Please venmo me the $20.

 

 

And also, this isn't a derailment. This is giving a full picture of McCain. I didn't disrespect him, I am being honest. 

[PeterMP]

33 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Petty missteps? He married his second wife before he divorced his first wife and had a long affair. That's a petty misstep to you?

 

He called his wife a c***.

 

He insulted a child. 

 

I didn't make a big deal of the Keating 5 stuff, but that was him. I also didn't talk about his support for the War in Iraq (he wanted the Iraq war in 2001 and then he backtracked but many people died for this)

 

These aren't petty missteps. These are things that he did and would be seen as bad if someone you knew did this. I never called McCain a monster or a bad person. But I am not joining in on this lionizing that the media and many on this board want to do. I am reverential of his passing and he did serve in public office for a long time, but I am not joining this party either.

 

That doesn't mean I don't respect him and don't think he had a good faith in his convictions (or most of them like most politicians) but I refuse to pretend as well. 

I never called him a monster. All I said is don't lionize him.

 

I'd be dubious of the wife thing.  It was in a book during a Presidential election year by somebody admittedly on the far left.  It was never confirmed by another outlet.

 

Nobody's claiming he didn't have a temper or he had a good sense of humor (the Chelsea thing was a joke at a private fund raiser, and she was 18), and the Clintons don't seem to be angry with him about the comment (I saw Hillary do an interview and she only had very nice things to say- and she certainly could have refused to do the interview at all).

 

He was a politician that was a war hero that generally practiced and supported responsible and respectable government in an era where responsible and respectable government has been disappearing.  He generally refused to run negative campaigns and tried to focus on policy.  Yes, he told bad jokes and had a temper, but by all accounts, when he messed up he profusely apologized for it.  And certainly most of the affected people seemed to have forgiven him (well before he died).  For other people to hold those things against him in his death seems absurd.

[LD0506]

Personally, I think you honor the man more by looking objectively at the whole thing, his strengths, his flaws and failings, everything. He struggled to do what he saw as the right thing (as do we all) and often hindsight gave a different view, but that doesn't negate the underlying morality of doing what you thought best at the time.

 

He was a good man, not a perfect man, not a saint or paragon, just a man. But he WAS a man and deserves the honors due him.

 

Honestly, I don't think McCain would be bristling too much at his history being discussed, pro and con.

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

5 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Personally, I think you honor the man more by looking objectively at the whole thing, his strengths, his flaws and failings, everything. He struggled to do what he saw as the right thing (as do we all) and often hindsight gave a different view, but that doesn't negate the underlying morality of doing what you thought best at the time.

 

He was a good man, not a perfect man, not a saint or paragon, just a man. But he WAS a man and deserves the honors due him.

 

Honestly, I don't think McCain would be bristling too much at his history being discussed, pro and con.

 

 

I think we should do it for all people. That isn’t calling McCain a monster. I disagreed with most of his politics, I just hate lionizing people after they die. This is how horrible mythologies form of people that do not deserve it and we end up with someone like Andrew Jackson being on the $20 bill.

[grego]

29 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

And also, this isn't a derailment. This is giving a full picture of McCain. I didn't disrespect him, I am being honest. 

 

I don't disagree with being real about people. When people die, we tend to overlook the not so pretty things in their lives and emphasize the good. 

 

I would note, though, that when some people have died and people have pointed out their shortcomings, or pointed out that the picture is not as rosy as its being made out to be, 'just being honest' doesn't always work so well. 

 

[PeterMP]

32 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

I think we should do it for all people. That isn’t calling McCain a monster. I disagreed with most of his politics, I just hate lionizing people after they die. This is how horrible mythologies form of people that do not deserve it and we end up with someone like Andrew Jackson being on the $20 bill.

 

Okay, you said he wasn't a good person.  That might not be calling him a monster, but it certainly implies that general line of thought.

 

I guess I don't see anybody lionizing him.  Nobody is saying he had a good or respectable sense of humor or didn't have a temper.

 

You seem to be especially trying to pull him down by ignoring that he seems to have apologized to people and made up with them and even the people that he "wronged" don't seem to be mad at him.  His ex-wife and kids have been involved in his life for years and seem to understand what happened and accepted it.   They don't think he's not a good person because of it.

 

If the people involved and close to him have come to a resolution and were still active in his life and have good things to say about him, then to use that evidence he's not a good person seems out of place to me.  If the Clintons are angry about the Chelsea joke, they are, at least, putting it aside for now.

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

BenningRoadSkin

No one is perfect. Unless that person is real horrible like say an Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden; you tend to focus on the better side of a person. You don't discount the bad they did in life; you discuss the good when they die. 

 

Every single person in life has done stuff that is regrettable. We don't focus on that, when they die.

 

If the coverage of Mccain upsets you so much, avoid it. I am sure when some hero of your hero of yours passes; you can pick their life apart. 

 

When you pass, the same can done with you. Thing is, people will remember the best of you.

 

Unless you're really bad; we will remember the best.

[Bozo the kKklown]

21 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Okay, you said he wasn't a good person.  That might not be calling him a monster, but it certainly implies that general line of thought.

I don't know if he was with how he treated his first wife. He wanted to go and bomb Iraq and lead that charge which resulted in the unjustified deaths of millions.

 

But I do not think he was a monster. 

2 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

If the coverage of Mccain upsets you so much, avoid it. I am sure when some hero of your hero of yours passes; you can pick their life apart. 

It doesn't upset me at all.

 

And people I look up to have had their lives picked apart. I am a Michael Jackson stan. I have no idea what he did with those kids.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Is "lionizing" the word of the day?  

 

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I don't know if he was with how he treated his first wife. He wanted to go and bomb Iraq and lead that charge which resulted in the unjustified deaths of millions.

 

But I do not think he was a monster. 

 

1.  Millions of people didn't die in Iraq (because of the war).

 

2.  Most people, including McCain, admit that the Iraq war was a mistake.  At the time, the objective was to actually (longer terms) save lives (from Saddam).  Are we going to say that Obama isn't a good person based on the people that died in Afghanistan during his tenure or died in Syria because of his inaction?

[PF Chang]

 

Just want to point out that from what I've seen from internet leftists (actual leftists, not liberals), Benning's response is comparatively tame. 

 

Take a look at the responses to Ocasio-Cortez's tweet from the Chapo Trap House crowd. Disgusting, and probably not doing their movement any favors. Ocasio-Cortez isn't even in Congress yet and she's already not pure enough for the Leftier Than Thou crowd (because she acted like a decent human being with her condolences). 

 

There's nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws of a public figure, particularly one who has affected history like McCain. There are respectful ways and disrespectful ways of doing that. There's good and bad in everyone and even that distinction is often based on perspective.

 

I think Benning's response is fine. McCain's final statement acknowledges his own imperfections. He wasn't just a knight in shining armor as one side likes or just an 'imperialist warmonger' for another crowd.

 

For me the sum of the parts seems like someone worthy of the admiration, though sincerity in politics is almost impossible to determine. For more on that I highly recommend this piece on McCain's 2000 campaign:

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/david-foster-wallace-on-john-mccain-the-weasel-twelve-monkeys-and-the-shrub-194272/

[Jumbo]

i think graham's very emotional tribute to mccain was worth watching all the way through ...imo, a few understandable stumbling moments, but it came off as so genuine (obvious, but stands out these days), touching, beautifully expressed overall, and at times even inspirational and uplifting  

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

My point (which I don't think I did a good job on making) was that with the exception of a few known sociopaths, maybe we should wait a few more weeks before we tear down people that have recently passed. Let people honor, grieve, whatever and then by all means, feel free to criticize. Otherwise it just comes off as spiteful shade (not saying that was the intent but rather how it looked).

[PeterMP]

4 hours ago, PF Chang said:

 

Just want to point out that from what I've seen from internet leftists (actual leftists, not liberals), Benning's response is comparatively tame. 

 

Take a look at the responses to Ocasio-Cortez's tweet from the Chapo Trap House crowd. Disgusting, and probably not doing their movement any favors. Ocasio-Cortez isn't even in Congress yet and she's already not pure enough for the Leftier Than Thou crowd (because she acted like a decent human being with her condolences). 

 

There's nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws of a public figure, particularly one who has affected history like McCain. There are respectful ways and disrespectful ways of doing that. There's good and bad in everyone and even that distinction is often based on perspective.

 

I think Benning's response is fine. McCain's final statement acknowledges his own imperfections. He wasn't just a knight in shining armor as one side likes or just an 'imperialist warmonger' for another crowd.

 

For me the sum of the parts seems like someone worthy of the admiration, though sincerity in politics is almost impossible to determine. For more on that I highly recommend this piece on McCain's 2000 campaign:

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/david-foster-wallace-on-john-mccain-the-weasel-twelve-monkeys-and-the-shrub-194272/

 

I think Benning's response is too much, and some of the grief she is getting if fine.  I think she's wrong.  There has to be some space between unparalleled human decency and not a good person.  It has to be possible to be a good person, but have some flaws and have made some mistakes so that you are not an example of unparalleled human decency.

 

I've been a fan of McCain for a long time (if you can find some of those 2008 pre-election threads, my post in them will prove it), but he wasn't Mr. Rogers.

[visionary]

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

^^^ He used to be my Division Officer.

[visionary]

 

[Jumbo]

some heartfelt tributes..another sign i'm getting old...i've teared up more than once over aretha and mccain, and i would have said i was a much bigger fan of aretha's than john's, but i get even more weepy over mccain partly because of the times we live in...i found out one of john's fave tunes is one of mine since i was a kid, and i took a lot of abuse from pals back then for it being corny---and we share a preference for the same singer's rendition of it...the lyrics sure fit him...found a version with a quite appropriate backdrop for this moment

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brandymac27]

I'm watching CNN, and they showed a clip of Meghan going up to his casket sobbing. I broke down in tears. I wish all politicians on ALL sides could be as dedicated to this country and its citizens as people like John McCain. 

[StillUnknown]

 

[tshile]

On 8/28/2018 at 10:55 AM, BenningRoadSkin said:

I just hate lionizing people after they die.

I'm with you. 

My reasons are different, and more his terrible politics and pretend maverickness especially towards the end.  But i'm with you. 

 

We see it when these people retire too. Remember when Boehner retired?  It was ridiculous how much praise that piece of garbage received, and from the people who had spent years criticizing him for his willingness to sabotage our government (and country) during the Obama years.

 

It's times like this I wish I had copied all the crap people had said about the person over the years so we could juxtapose it next to their posts in the thread.

 

I give McCain all the credit in the world for the war hero stuff.

 

As a senator I stopped being duped by his act years ago, and I realized it much later than I should have.

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[LadySkinsFan]

I saw Meghan sobbing as she came into the Capitol and couldn't watch any more. To personal of grief.

[Elessar78]

 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 

Ephesians 6:12