Jumbo Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 there's useful insight to be gained by examining how the reactions/thoughts/feelings/experiences of the obama/dem supporter now v the same with the trump/gop supporter during obama are close to mirror images of each other....setting aside all the arguments, those people who actually love trump think/feel they've been in the worst hell ever under obama, just as the love obama/dems (even with criticisms) people are now seeing trump in a similarly awful light...not doing the false equivalency thing...i don't do that...ya'all know my take on that form of deadbrain argument..talking here about the feelings generally being the same, and they are very powerful feelings...and they went through it for 8 years...selfishly, however, i absolutely hope with all i can hope that this version ends asap lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 18 minutes ago, Jumbo said: there's useful insight to be gained by examining how the reactions/thoughts/feelings/experiences of the obama/dem supporter now v the same with the trump/gop supporter during obama are close to mirror images of each other....setting aside all the arguments, those people who actually love trump think/feel they've been in the worst hell ever under obama, just as the love obama/dems (even with criticisms) people are now seeing trump in a similarly awful light...not doing the false equivalency thing...i don't do that...ya'all know my take on that form of deadbrain argument..talking here about the feelings generally being the same, and they are very powerful feelings...and they went through it for 8 years...selfishly, however, i absolutely hope with all i can hope that this version ends asap lol I think when 16 year olds get locked up in federal facilities without the right to see an attorney is the time you can actually start screaming. A bunch of racists made making signs about a birth certificate should not undercut real crises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I think we can all enjoy a short break and a smile from watching a meat guy inspired dance: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I'm the boards neo-con. I believe the United States is a force for good and what is good for the United States is good for the world. I have no issue at using force to stop evil in the world (I would have tried to stop the Rawanda , Darfor and the Cambodian genocides but admit this can get us in trouble - Iraq anyone - so it probably is best a non neocon tempers neo-con impulses) I want the US to remain the Dominant Power as long as possible. I like strong alliances with the worlds democracies. I believe capitalism is good because it requires liberty to operate (Socialism doesn't and Socialists ultimately find liberty an impediment) . I don't think Trump is good for the United States, I don't the think the Democrats with their primary focus on division and identity politics are either. I like the melting pot and hate the Salad Bowl when it comes to the US population (assimilation is a good thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 21 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: I think when 16 year olds get locked up in federal facilities without the right to see an attorney is the time you can actually start screaming. Happens every single day, you know that. Parents can't afford a good attorney and public defenders are overworked. I was blessed, had friends front me for a lawyer. In the end, I lost my house. Over a DUI and 9/11...I'm in the restaurant biz, and when people stop spending money, we lose. If it hadn't been for my dude (husband now), I'd be living in a dumpster...no ****. edit, add: And I wasn't Federal, just even county (at 4'10") I got a point across...I can help you ladies if you keep me safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PF Chang Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, s0crates said: I see your meaning, and I had the same thought, but I can think of a couple ways this might be valuable: 1. We find that our disagreements aren't as deep as they seem. Sometimes we get so caught up on which team we're on and quibbling over particulars, we may forget that the vast majority of us believe in liberty, justice, and equal opportunity. Maybe we can bridge these imagined chasms that exist between us. I also appreciate the reminder that most right-leaning people aren't Nazis, and most left-leaning people aren't Stalinists. 2. When we find so many of us are philosophically similar, we might look to see if our government and elected representatives are enacting laws that reflect our common philosophy. I would argue they aren't. It might be interesting to compare Obama and Trump's results to ours, for example Good post, I agree. Looks like I am in the libertarian left basket as well: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Now that many of us have taken the quiz, and to build on my earlier thought about comparing our results to those of our representatives, consider this (more info about methodology and commentary at link): https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016 Does our government represent us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Honestly, I don't believe those charts, Soc. There's no way Jill Stein is a almost a centrist. You also have Clinton placed in different places on the same chart. It's also kinda ridiculous to put Bernie Sanders almost perfectly centered. Netiher Stein or Sanders are remotely moderates and they would tell you that themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Burgold said: Honestly, I don't believe those charts, Soc. There's no way Jill Stein is a almost a centrist. You also have Clinton placed in different places on the same chart. It's also kinda ridiculous to put Bernie Sanders almost perfectly centered. Netiher Stein or Sanders are remotely moderates and they would tell you that themselves. I didn't make the chart, the people who run the political compass did. Here's what they say about it: Quote Please note that the positions on the chart are based on speeches, manifestos and, where applicable, voting records .If positions markedly change during the campaign, we will revise the chart accordingly. Already the positions of Trump and Clinton differ slightly from the primaries chart. . . . It remains a mystery to us why Sanders chose to describe himself — incorrectly — as a socialist, and in America of all countries. His position is that of a mainstream social democrat — a Keynesian in the mould of the New Deal, and the mainstream left in all other democracies . . . There is also some analysis at the link (and charts for previous US elections and foreign elections), and in honesty I think they're more right than wrong about what they say. This is stuff I tried (and failed ) to explain all of last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I just don't buy it. Whoever analyzed the speeches, manifestos, etc. is adding in their own values and assumptions. Looking at the top chart, Trump, Cruz, Bush, and Rubio are all literally Hitler reincarnated. Hillary Clinton is Mao. Do you believe that to be accurate? Do you think that Stein is a centrist? Whatever analysis they used to construct those results appear to me to be sheer garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Well placing by perception would move mine quite at bit Northeast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, twa said: Well placing by perception would move mine quite at bit Northeast So you're saying you are pretty much Hillary Clinton politically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said: So you're saying you are pretty much Hillary Clinton politically? I was thinking Genghis Khan, but Hillary is in the neighborhood....when unmasked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Gotta agree with @Burgold. No way I lean further to the left than Jill Stein. Bernie certainly aint a centrist either. From everything I've read and heard him say he's at least as far left as I am. Jeb and Rubio ain't Hitler neither. Trump and Cruz, well that could be debatable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 55 minutes ago, clietas said: Gotta agree with @Burgold. No way I lean further to the left than Jill Stein. Bernie certainly aint a centrist either. From everything I've read and heard him say he's at least as far left as I am. Jeb and Rubio ain't Hitler neither. Trump and Cruz, well that could be debatable... I think it's a perception versus reality thing. The reality is most mainstream US politicians are authoritarian right, and the Dems are a little closer to the center than the GOP (which is not representative of a population that is much more libertarian overall, and slightly left of center for the most part). It is easier to see this if you put aside party identification and think in terms of actual policy. Marijuana is illegal. We have the largest per capita prison population in the world. We have the largest military budget in the world and we have been in a state of perpetual war for decades. We have the largest surveillance state the world has ever seen. Our laws are extremely friendly to corporate interests. We're one of the only western democracies that doesn't guarantee healthcare as a right. Our minimum wage is a starvation wage. Etc. Both parties do these things, and they are all hallmarks of the authoritarian right. It bothers me that people don't see this, and I have no idea how to get through to them. Is it because the Dems talk a good game? Are we all too focused on identity politics and culture wars? Is it that our elections are always about guns, gays, and abortion? Are we being misled by the corporate press? Are we just apathetic due to lack of substantive choices? I wish I knew, because it sure is frustrating knowing people more or less agree with me philosophically but opposed me when we had a chance at correcting our course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 @s0crates my answers to your questions. 1. No 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. Yes I agree 100%. It is frustrating as all hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 56 minutes ago, clietas said: Gotta agree with @Burgold. No way I lean further to the left than Jill Stein. Bernie certainly aint a centrist either. From everything I've read and heard him say he's at least as far left as I am. Jeb and Rubio ain't Hitler neither. Trump and Cruz, well that could be debatable... Well given the chart Socrates posted wouldn't about 95% of the population be right of Reagan? But then what would be the definition of Center then (Isn't center supposed to be the average of the entire population)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, nonniey said: Well given the chart Socrates posted wouldn't about 95% of the population be right of Reagan? But then what would be the definition of Center then (Isn't center supposed to be the average of the entire population)? By their metrics, 2008 Obama was almost dead center, but he drifted towards authoritarian right. Also the chart I posted is not about the population that votes for these politicians, but instead it is about the politicians themselves. That's my point, our politicians are not representative of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, s0crates said: By their metrics, 2008 Obama was almost dead center, but he drifted towards authoritarian right. Then I think they are deluding themselves on what the center is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, nonniey said: Then I think they are deluding themselves on what the Center is. Maybe if you look at it relative to other mainstream US politicians or listen to the right wing caricatures of Obama, but those aren't their reference points. They're looking at all western democracies and political philosophies. Consider it from the perspective of other political thinkers. If Marx and Stalin are far to the authoritarian left, Hobbes and Hitler are far to the authoritarian right, Ayn Rand and Robert Nozick are far to the libertarian right, and Emma Goldman and Noam Chomsky are far to the libertarian left, then 2008 Obama was indeed very near the ideological center. Edit: Another possible source of confusion here is that what we think our politicians stand for is much different than what they actually do. For example, people think Obama represents the libertarian left, but his actual policies don't reflect that. He continued Bush's policies of interventionist wars and warrantless domestic spying, and Obamacare is essentially Romneycare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Hillary Clinton Has many conservative traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I'm willing to bet if Hillary Clinton answered the same set of questions I did, she would be in a similar spot on the chart as me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 25 minutes ago, Springfield said: Hillary Clinton Has many conservative traits. Only the bad ones though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Just now, twa said: Only the bad ones though. Theres a good one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 47 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I'm willing to bet if Hillary Clinton answered the same set of questions I did, she would be in a similar spot on the chart as me. Maybe if she answered them with her public position instead of her private position. However the chart also factors in her record, which is a big part of how she ends up on the authoritarian right. For example: the Clinton crime bill, support of the death penalty, interventionist wars in Iraq and Libya, corporate friendly trade deals like NAFTA and the TPP, and support for bank bailouts. I'm afraid that putting the names of politicians into the mix has only confused the issue. Cognitive bias is a powerful thing. I liked it better when we all realized we're freedom loving people, and most of us lean left. I don't really want to debate about Hillary, I'm just trying to say our government is much more right authoritarian than most of us are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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