The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Peregrine]

23 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

I don't understand the arguments here supporting paying him 25 million a season. Most of the arguments for this given here are false and wrong. 

 

*I hate Kirk, I hate Kirk, etc, shortened*

 

So, Russel Wilson doesnt have a good team around him?  Ben Roethlisberger?  Matt Ryan? 

 

Tired old arguments that just say, if the team wins more than 4 games, it was his fault, but if we win a lot of games, it was the team around him.  Despite the very, blatantly obvious fact that we have no running game, no defense, and the only redeemable part of our team has been the passing game.  But yes, lets throw that all away at the SAME time you admit Gruden calling plays now could be a problem.  

 

If you want to go 3-13 again, fine for you, but I dont want to.

[carex]

2 hours ago, Gregpeck99 said:

It is what it is ... Skins screwed-up by tagging him this year ... gave him disproportional leverage.

 

I would love to retain Kirk ... but if not ... let's move on ... 

 

 

so they should have let him hit free agency?

[bobandweave]

Edited didn't quote right when I posted

[mistertim]

What fake nonsense?

[bobandweave]

44 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

So, Russel Wilson doesnt have a good team around him?  Ben Roethlisberger?  Matt Ryan? 

 

Tired old arguments that just say, if the team wins more than 4 games, it was his fault, but if we win a lot of games, it was the team around him.  Despite the very, blatantly obvious fact that we have no running game, no defense, and the only redeemable part of our team has been the passing game.  But yes, lets throw that all away at the SAME time you admit Gruden calling plays now could be a problem.  

 

If you want to go 3-13 again, fine for you, but I dont want to.

 

In that blanetly false rude post you just put there where did I say one word about Russell Wilson? Or hating Cousins? Where are your rebuttals to my points or answers to the questions I raised? Where did I say I wanted us to go 3 or 4 wins this year? No where all that was is an attack at me because you don't like what I'm saying

 

If all your going to do is shout down people asking questions because your tired don't do that with me. Add to the discussion add something worthwhile otherwise take a nap since your cranky

31 minutes ago, carex said:

 

so they should have let him hit free agency?

 

No they should have made him the absolute best offer they could live with and if he refused to accept it traded him

[Gregpeck99]

47 minutes ago, carex said:

 

so they should have let him hit free agency?

No ... they should have made him an offer he could not refuse ...

 

But BA is not sold on Kirk ... nor is Dan ... 

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

He has the physical tools..better than Kirk. Gruden *might* be able to structure an "O" where he can deliver. The Bears "depended" on him to be a game changer. We don't need that to be competitive. Maybe not playoffs, but at least make some noise and be entertaining to December.

 

He has the arm, but so did RGIII. Physical tools don't mean much when you don't have the mental makeup to be a QB.

And the Bears did not depend on him to be a game changer. In fact, the Redskins depend more on Cousins than the Bears depend on Cutler. The Bears have a better rushing attack AND defense. Cutler would have to do everything here, and he absolutely cannot.

 

2 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

And Kirk holding hostage = he plays in franchise tag with the INTENT to go somewhere else in 2018 UNLESS we give him Brady/Rogers money PLUS SOME. "Make him an offer he can't refuse vs making an offer that is commensurate with Market Value and we still can pay other players. If he is hell bent on leaving..tell us now. That's all. *I* don't want to break the bank (whatever that bank is..I don't know..but the Skins do)

 

This is a very tired, and false narrative.

 

2 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

 

I LIKE Kirk...was for him from year 2013 over RG3 when he couldn't produce. But if he is butt hurt over snyder's bromances...lets ALL move on. Cutler is a GOOD option. If Bruce even THINKS about Kapernick...I AM DONE with the Skins. Been a fan since Sonny and Billy pissed on Theisman!!

 

Ok, let me get this straight. Cutler is fine, but Kapernick (who went to a SB) is worth throwing away your fandom on? You'll have to pardon me if that logic falls flat.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

 

Ok, let me get this straight. Cutler is fine, but Kapernick (who went to a SB) is worth throwing away your fandom on? You'll have to pardon me if that logic falls flat.

I don't appreciate his disrespect for the anthem and what the anthem stands for. *My* personal feeling and no amount of PC shaming will change my mind.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

This is a very tired, and false narrative.

It's ONLY false if it is PROVED to be false. I said IF. IF Kirk wants to leave, don't try and buy him off. Move on. IF he wants to agree to a LTD that pays him for his market worth and the Skins agree...GREAT! THAT is my 1st hope, that he is not adverse to a LTD here with the Skins. *I* don't know what the truth is and nether do you. That said..it's better to resolve this THIS year when there is opportunity compensation to the Team

[purbeast]

His market value is $24 million per year.  The redskins set that by tagging him to $24 million dollars for 1 year.  The Redskins (per reports) are not even close to that, and have not come close to offering him a fair market value deal.

[RedskinsMayne]

4 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

He has the physical tools..better than Kirk. Gruden *might* be able to structure an "O" where he can deliver. The Bears "depended" on him to be a game changer. We don't need that to be competitive. Maybe not playoffs, but at least make some noise and be entertaining to December.

 

And Kirk holding hostage = he plays in franchise tag with the INTENT to go somewhere else in 2018 UNLESS we give him Brady/Rogers money PLUS SOME. "Make him an offer he can't refuse vs making an offer that is commensurate with Market Value and we still can pay other players. If he is hell bent on leaving..tell us now. That's all. *I* don't want to break the bank (whatever that bank is..I don't know..but the Skins do)

 

I LIKE Kirk...was for him from year 2013 over RG3 when he couldn't produce. But if he is butt hurt over snyder's bromances...lets ALL move on. Cutler is a GOOD option. If Bruce even THINKS about Kapernick...I AM DONE with the Skins. Been a fan since Sonny and Billy pissed on Theisman!!

 

 

Hell, i'd gladly give him brady money

 

I'm pretty sure he only walks if he gets a lot more somewhere else. E.g., transition tag. That's not holding us hostage no matter what the contract is. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wyvern]

I don't think Kaepernick would be a very good fit with the Skins.  Frankly, Cutler, with all his flaws, fits the Skins current style of offense schemes better. 

 

While I don't think Kaepernick is as bad as he was in 2014, at best he's a good, but not great QB.  But more telling, is that what play-schemes Kaepernick is best at, is not what the Gruden offense needs.  Maybe Gruden could change, but it looks like the Skins have moved on from the read option (which was Kaepernick's forte.) What I've seen from Kaepernick didn't look like he'd exactly flourish in Gruden's controlled/timing passing attack; moreover, Colin takes a lot of sacks, perhaps because he holds the ball too long?

 

The bigger issue is -- if Kaepernick was in a high profile position as the Skins QB in the nation's Capitol   this could likely make for some "explosive media chemistry" (especially considering the current President's administration).  I suspect the media would have a field day exploiting "Kaeper-quotes" and this would eventually turn into a string of major media distractions.  (And as you've seen, the Skins PR department doesn't seem to be up to the task of handling any kind of controversy.)

 

Frankly, If Kaepernick was the starting Skins QB, I'd probably always be holding my breath wondering how he'd answer questions from the media -- including one of the most obvious one ... "So Colin, just what are your thoughts about the name of the Washington franchise?"    (Moreover,  I can't help but think he'd be bond to make a few controversial political statements as well.) 

 

Bottom Line:  Colin Kaepernick simply doesn't bring enough to the table -- and lest we forget, a 30-year old running the read option may not be as effective at it, as he was 5-6 years ago.

[Tsailand]

4 hours ago, bobandweave said:

That's why I think sticking to a plan of forcing him to sign a reasonable deal this off season was the right thing to do. Now if that's exhausted and it looks like there is no chance to get something that makes sense done with Kirk

 

What makes sense is $25/year.  The team is still at $20-21.

 

This **** isn't Kirk's fault.

 

4 hours ago, bobandweave said:

A QB like Patrick Mahomes or Mitchell Trubisky or even DeShone Kizer if they are there at 17 makes a lot of sense for rebuilding this

 

What makes more sense is rebuilding the rest of the team while paying the QB who will keep us relevant even when we have no run game and no defense.

 

All your other plans basically amount to "Dan Snyder drafts a QB early in the first round of 2017 or 2018".  **** that.

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

I don't appreciate his disrespect for the anthem and what the anthem stands for. *My* personal feeling and no amount of PC shaming will change my mind.

 

"Lighten up, Francis."

 

I was talking about actual production. If you wanna hate the guy for whatever reason, I don't care. But if you say Cutler is better, you're wrong. They both suck, and both would stink the place up here.

 

1 hour ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

It's ONLY false if it is PROVED to be false. I said IF. IF Kirk wants to leave, don't try and buy him off. Move on. IF he wants to agree to a LTD that pays him for his market worth and the Skins agree...GREAT! THAT is my 1st hope, that he is not adverse to a LTD here with the Skins. *I* don't know what the truth is and nether do you. That said..it's better to resolve this THIS year when there is opportunity compensation to the Team

 

No, it's only true if proven to be true. You DON'T prove a negative. Everything that has come the only 2 people that matter, is that they want to get a deal done. And the only things have have said otherwise are rumors. And because of that, you can get closer to the truth.

 

You believe what you want.

[rumplestilskin]

I honestly would rather roll with Colt rather than Cutler or Kapernick. Its sad that we even have to discuss life after Kirk because it never should have come to this.  Dan will pay him eventually. He owes it to us all. 

[carex]

1 hour ago, Tsailand said:

 

What makes sense is $25/year.  The team is still at $20-21.

 

This **** isn't Kirk's fault.

 

 

What makes more sense is rebuilding the rest of the team while paying the QB who will keep us relevant even when we have no run game and no defense.

 

All your other plans basically amount to "Dan Snyder drafts a QB early in the first round of 2017 or 2018".  **** that.

 

I am sorry but the franchise tag is upper end stuff and you have to consider bonuses which their inevitably will be. LTD's are supposed to spread the money across the cap.  The way it sounds to me the LTD Kirk wants would end up raising his cap hit above his franchise tag hit and that just can't work

[Tsailand]

That's nonsense, @carex.  Any long-term Kirk deal is going to come with a big signing bonus that pushes the bulk of the cap hit to later years.  NFL contracts 101 stuff.

 

Here's a really simple example.  See if you can figure out what the cap hits by year would be:

$65M signing bonus.

2017 salary: $5M

2018 salary: $5M

2019 salary: $10M

2020 salary: $20M

2021 salary: $20M

[Rattlesnake88]

We are seriously arguing Kaepernick vs. Cutler in a "should we keep Kirk" thread? My have we stooped to new levels of offseason boredom.

 

With that being said and since I wrote "we". I will add my two cents.

 

@Wyvern nailed it in his post why Colin wouldn't work in D.C... Politics! He would be media bait. Could lure this franchise into new levels of embarrassment. 

 

As for Kaepernick's ability vs Cutler. Here is a point I'd like to make. Colin found success in 2012, the year of the "read option". Defenses were not prepared, and the NFL rule book hadn't yet adapted. In one specific year under one skill set specific system, Colin was incredible. However he has yet to prove that outside of this system, that has been turned out by NFL defenses, that he is a good or winning qb.

 

Cutler has had the disadvantage of being under many, many offenses and he has been way more consistent while adapting to many "prostyle" offensive playbooks. He has had many weapons taken from under his fingers, Olsen, Bennett, Marshall/Marshall again and Forte.  I will say Kaep is in a similar situation with losing Davis, Gore, Boldin and Crabtree. But I think the biggest advantage to Jay(Cutler) is that he fits Gruden(Jay). Cutlers biggest issue is durability and attitude. But when surrounded with a good offensive line (which we have), talent at receiver (check), and a good scheme, he has put up big numbers and won some football games. 

 

Gutcheck time.

 

Neither of these dudes will play in DC. Kirk plays at least this season (trade would have to collect outrageous bounty). Nobody out bids Snyder when he wants something. Kirk may not exactly be the thing that Dan wants. But with the media now grinding the axe of Dan "blowing it" with not resigning Kirk. I would bet his ego won't allow for Kirk to leave without a king's ransom. Snyder will be forced to pay dearly. We will have our guy. There will be a whole lot of "haha, you overpaid for captain ints" but we will have him. 

 

Now continue with the shananagans!

[markmills67]

Could the reason Allen and co are stalling on a LTD be because Cousin's hasn't had many wins against winning teams, and his ---- goes when we need to win important games?. I said at the beginning of this thread that $20m per year is more than enough for Cousin's and it would also help the team in other important area's of need, we could always adjust his contract in later years if he gets better. All these people who say he is a top 5 QB at the moment are living in cloud cuckoo land, top 5 QB's win important games and don't go missing in action like cousins has done. At the end of the day I want cousins here long term but at a reasonable price.

 

HTTR 

[purbeast]

6 hours ago, markmills67 said:

Could the reason Allen and co are stalling on a LTD be because Cousin's hasn't had many wins against winning teams, and his ---- goes when we need to win important games?. I said at the beginning of this thread that $20m per year is more than enough for Cousin's and it would also help the team in other important area's of need, we could always adjust his contract in later years if he gets better. All these people who say he is a top 5 QB at the moment are living in cloud cuckoo land, top 5 QB's win important games and don't go missing in action like cousins has done. At the end of the day I want cousins here long term but at a reasonable price.

 

HTTR 

I did not realize KC was playing every position on offense, defense, and special teams in those losses.  

 

Did he play every position in the wins he had last year too?

[Morneblade]

6 hours ago, markmills67 said:

Could the reason Allen and co are stalling on a LTD be because Cousin's hasn't had many wins against winning teams, and his ---- goes when we need to win important games?. I said at the beginning of this thread that $20m per year is more than enough for Cousin's and it would also help the team in other important area's of need, we could always adjust his contract in later years if he gets better. All these people who say he is a top 5 QB at the moment are living in cloud cuckoo land, top 5 QB's win important games and don't go missing in action like cousins has done. At the end of the day I want cousins here long term but at a reasonable price.

 

HTTR 

 

Thanks for your input Bruce. I'm sure Colt McCoy will net us 3 wins next year on the cheap. And think of all the money we saved!

[WelshSkinsFan]

6 hours ago, markmills67 said:

Could the reason Allen and co are stalling on a LTD be because Cousin's hasn't had many wins against winning teams, and his ---- goes when we need to win important games?. I said at the beginning of this thread that $20m per year is more than enough for Cousin's and it would also help the team in other important area's of need, we could always adjust his contract in later years if he gets better. All these people who say he is a top 5 QB at the moment are living in cloud cuckoo land, top 5 QB's win important games and don't go missing in action like cousins has done. At the end of the day I want cousins here long term but at a reasonable price.

 

HTTR 

 

The reason they are stalling is the deadline is in July.  There is no reason to come up with their best offer right now as the only people who really care at this point are diehard fans like us.  Things can happen to alter leverage between now and the deadline and both sides get that and are content to wait, it just sucks for the fans who want to know where we stand.

[bobandweave]

18 hours ago, Gregpeck99 said:

No ... they should have made him an offer he could not refuse ...

 

But BA is not sold on Kirk ... nor is Dan ... 

 

Then trade him. The Texans are ripe for getting something done there. They put there eggs in the Romo basket and when that went belly up they are looking at drafting a QB at pick 25, going after Jay Cutler, or starting Tom Savage next year. Kirk would blow all of those choices away and they have the cap room to get something done. He goes out of the NFC so we would only have to play him once every 4 years. 

 

 

15 hours ago, purbeast said:

His market value is $24 million per year.  The redskins set that by tagging him to $24 million dollars for 1 year.  The Redskins (per reports) are not even close to that, and have not come close to offering him a fair market value deal.

 

Then why prolong this? Rip the band aide off and surrender. If you can't get something done then move on and start over. Doing nothing does not solve this problem. There are reasons to doubt him being able to repeat his last two years here - New play caller, new offensive weapons - that this is an unwinnable situation for us. If he produces less, doesn't have a winning record, or struggles will we want to offer him the price he wants next off season? No. What will change between our feeling now and July? Nothing. It's an empass and the longer we wait to move him the more likely teams like Houston move on

 

[bobandweave]

15 hours ago, Tsailand said:

 

What makes sense is $25/year.  The team is still at $20-21.

 

This **** isn't Kirk's fault.

 

 

What makes more sense is rebuilding the rest of the team while paying the QB who will keep us relevant even when we have no run game and no defense.

 

All your other plans basically amount to "Dan Snyder drafts a QB early in the first round of 2017 or 2018".  **** that.

 

First who the hell cares who is at fault here? Blaming the team does not fix this issue, blaming Kirk does not fix this issue either. Kirk holds the decision on what he will sign long term for and the team has a decision on what they can live with paying him. Two separate decisions are at play now and both sides are deciding not to work together.

 

Is Kirk right his number is 25 million and won't sign for less? Based on what? The fact that the team tagged him? Teams tag players all the time for different reasons like they don't have a better answer that season, just because a guy gets tagged doesn't mean he's got to get that much for the next 5 years too. Tags are tools NFL teams use to buy time to negotiate and not all players who get tags get that as a base number for multiple years. Sometimes that happens (Dez Bryant) and sometimes that does not happen. It's not always the same for every player

 

Is the team wrong for wanting to pay someone 20 million a season instead of 25 million a season? Maybe maybe not. 

 

http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback

 

No QB in the league makes an average of 25 million a season in this league. Not one guy does that. If you knew you were breaking the bank at the highest paid position possible do you want to be known as the team that broke that financial glass ceiling and became the first to pay someone that much? If they had a Superbowl to show for it sure you can justify doing that. Kirk's been in the league for 5 years now, has led this team to one single playoff berth and it was 1 and done. They should have reservations about doing that with the teams reputation on contracts and the results on the field. 

 

Either way it does not matter. If the team is not budging then they should cut bait and find someone else. As for drafting someone else, why **** that? Because Kirk was someone they drafted!!!! How is someone so obtuse that they can't admit that we had success drafting a QB and then take a dump on the idea of drafting someone else? Doesn't make any sense to me 

 

 

 

 

[bobandweave]

7 hours ago, markmills67 said:

Could the reason Allen and co are stalling on a LTD be because Cousin's hasn't had many wins against winning teams, and his ---- goes when we need to win important games?. I said at the beginning of this thread that $20m per year is more than enough for Cousin's and it would also help the team in other important area's of need, we could always adjust his contract in later years if he gets better. All these people who say he is a top 5 QB at the moment are living in cloud cuckoo land, top 5 QB's win important games and don't go missing in action like cousins has done. At the end of the day I want cousins here long term but at a reasonable price.

 

HTTR 

 

 

Well ya, you nailed it. QBs are judged by wins and Kirk's lack of them is one major issue with him. Only stat geeks think he is a top 5 QB without those wins. And when you break it down the difference of 25 a year and 20 a year over five years is only a difference of 25 million bucks. When your talking about the highest paid QB in the entire league making at least 100 million over 5 years what is the big deal with 25 million? That's like not getting a Stacy McGee type of guy (he just signed for 25 million). It shouldn't be that big of a deal, except the player they are looking at giving that money to hasn't shown he's a winner in this league yet. Then it's a huge huge deal. And I don't think you can get past this. We've tried one year deals of proving it with him, and he failed that test. There isn't anything he can do in April to show us all that he changed this. If 25 is enough to kill this getting done then we should just accept it won't work and move him while we can