The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Todays NFL is just too complex to run over people consistently and you just won't score enough points. I understand you weren't saying to become a ground and pound team, but the Skins were average last year in running the ball. Sure, situational running needs to improve (inside the 20's), but it's my opinion most fan bases talk about how their run game needs to improve. 

 

This is many being romantic with how the game used to be played. I equate today's game and being good to a Switz army knife -- Be able to adjust and not have to rely on any one specific area to carry your team. 

 

These are some reasons why the importance of having a great QB has elevated over the last 20 years. 

 

That's a pretty debatable argument, especially when you say how run = simple and how running the ball is simply remembering, stary eyed, about how the game used to be played.

[carex]

2 hours ago, sjinhan said:

I just don't get the anti-Cousins camp...

 

Seems like people in here think the quality QBs grow in trees...  we finally find a quality QB that you KNOW (not you think) that you can build around and people want to start over!

 

it took us only 25 years to find a Quality QB so let's not rush into any type of commitment ... we can just wait another 25 year to find that "perfect" QB...

 

$20+ Million per year is the market price for a QB and without one we are doomed as a franchise.   

 

 

here's my POV as a guy who wants him back but isn't ready to blame the team if it doesn't happen. 

 

We've had QBs have a good years here and there.  We've seen it fail to last.  Also it looks like Cousins might be wanting 24+ million per year because the Skins have offers 20 mil per.  Also, if we're to take one report as true, he'd really like to find out what he's worth on the open market.  And if this is true, then what the **** is going on in his head?  That doesn't happen for franchise QBs Kirk, what the hell makes you think you're special?

[Morneblade]

8 minutes ago, carex said:

 

here's my POV as a guy who wants him back but isn't ready to blame the team if it doesn't happen. 

 

We've had QBs have a good years here and there.  We've seen it fail to last.  Also it looks like Cousins might be wanting 24+ million per year because the Skins have offers 20 mil per.  Also, if we're to take one report as true, he'd really like to find out what he's worth on the open market.  And if this is true, then what the **** is going on in his head?  That doesn't happen for franchise QBs Kirk, what the hell makes you think you're special?

 

Franchise QB's never make it to one Franchise tag, much less two. They get extended before their contract even comes up. And not with a low guarantee money contract like we have offered.

 

I'll add, in hindsight franchising Kirk the first year was not a terrible idea. We saw what Osweiler did with his big contract being very unproven. He was a complete bust and got benched, and then traded. So, we took a chance and gave Kirk a 1 year deal in essence. We won (or lost depending on how you look at it) and now, we're gonna have to pony up the cash to keep him.

 

Or, you start over.

 

As to the other stuff? I would take anything you hear in the media with a grain of salt. And you know what they say about the internet.

[carex]

55 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Franchise QB's never make it to one Franchise tag, much less two. They get extended before their contract even comes up. And not with a low guarantee money contract like we have offered.

 

I'll add, in hindsight franchising Kirk the first year was not a terrible idea. We saw what Osweiler did with his big contract being very unproven. He was a complete bust and got benched, and then traded. So, we took a chance and gave Kirk a 1 year deal in essence. We won (or lost depending on how you look at it) and now, we're gonna have to pony up the cash to keep him.

 

Or, you start over.

 

As to the other stuff? I would take anything you hear in the media with a grain of salt. And you know what they say about the internet.

 

he wasn't a franchise QB until his contract was almost up

[Morneblade]

9 minutes ago, carex said:

 

he wasn't a franchise QB until his contract was almost up

 

Nope, which is why I think it was wise to franchise him. He had a really good run at the end of the season, but had started out slowly, and it was his first year starting. A lot of unknowns.

But I already covered that, saying it was not a bad idea.

 

Now, we could have made a better offer last year, but Bruce low balled him badly. It backfired.

 

So here we are.

[Wyvern]

4 hours ago, wit33 said:

the Skins were average last year in running the ball. Sure, situational running needs to improve (inside the 20's),

The stats may show the Skins running game just slightly below average -- but the running game was benefiting from the passing game setting it up.  

 

And from what I observed, the running game was very unreliable; I can recall many painful 3&1 and 4&1 situations where the Skins running game couldn't convert.  

 

And as you noted, the unreliable running-game really came back to haunt the Skins in the red-zone, when the passing game could no longer stretch the field, and defenders could effectively focus on shutting down the Skins passing option, because they didn't really have to respect the Skins inside running game.  (Part of that problem was the Center-Left Guard problems, and part was not having a beast-mode RB who could reliably push forward and get that yard.)  

 

Consequently McVay wound up increasingly favoring the pass for converting short yardage during crunch-time situations -- in spite of the defenders stacking against it.

 

To be clear -- I'm not getting misty-eyed for the old "ground-and-pound" game-plans of the Christian Okoye era. I understand how the NFL has morphed into more of a passing league --- but I will point to how the absence of a reliable situational running game severely hamstrings a team chances and consequently makes coaches over-reliant on always getting near-perfect performances from their QB.  Even Brady, Ryan, Wilson, Rothlisthberger, had decent situational running support .  I contend that Cousins didn't benefit from much running support in 2016. 

[Peregrine]

Comparing a QB who has been top 7 in his only two years of starting, with one year wonders like Foles just doesnt add up to the sniff test.  The same people would say, after a 3rd year of being a top 7 QB(stat wise), that he still hasnt proven hes as reliable as people like Rodgers and Brady, he could still fail.

[RedskinsMayne]

winning a playoff game would help that, even if it's true that winning in the playoffs is a team sport. We didn't even make the playoffs last year, that's what people remember.

[illone]

Fans are more worried about this than Kirk himself.

 

Dude is going to sign a 5 year, $120MM contract with $75MM guaranteed (hint, it will be next off-season).

 

That would bring his 7 year total to $173MM, $118MM Guaranteed.

 

You like that?

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, illone said:

Fans are more worried about this than Kirk himself.

 

Dude is going to sign a 5 year, $120MM contract with $75MM guaranteed (hint, it will be next off-season).

 

That would bring his 7 year total to $173MM, $118MM Guaranteed.

 

You like that?

 

With that kind of money.... Kirk better treat Dan and Bruce to a nice steak dinner at Morton's...lol

[illone]

3 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

With that kind of money.... Kirk better treat Dan and Bruce to a nice steak dinner at Morton's...lol

 

He could buy Morton's.  

[Gregpeck99]

Skins have painted themselves into a corner with Kirk.

 

The best move would be to trade him to the Browns, 49er's Texans or Jets before the Draft ... sign Cutler to a 2-year deal with incentives.

 

Then Draft Mahomes or Watson and build an exciting new Team!

 

 

 

[Morneblade]

7 hours ago, illone said:

Fans are more worried about this than Kirk himself.

 

Dude is going to sign a 5 year, $120MM contract with $75MM guaranteed (hint, it will be next off-season).

 

That would bring his 7 year total to $173MM, $118MM Guaranteed.

 

You like that?

 

Well, if you're going to blame someone for that, it's the F.O. And if, as you suggested they don't get one done this year, and they have to tag him next year.

 

1 hour ago, Gregpeck99 said:

Skins have painted themselves into a corner with Kirk.

 

The best move would be to trade him to the Browns, 49er's Texans or Jets before the Draft ... sign Cutler to a 2-year deal with incentives.

 

Then Draft Mahomes or Watson and build an exciting new Team!

 

 

 

 

Oh, Greg, this would be such a delusional move. Cutler is terrible, and, you really think that by just "drafting some QB" is going to work out? Oh, yes, because we do so well at that. Right now we have some level of respectability. You want us to go back to being the 4-12 bottom dwelling teams we've had in the past with this move.

 

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, Gregpeck99 said:

Draft Mahomes or Watson and build an exciting new Team!

 

Found the new Andyman.

[Gregpeck99]

3 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

 ... You want us to go back to being the 4-12 bottom dwelling teams we've had in the past with this move.

 

My thinking is predicated on the supposition that Kirk is on his way out of town with a one-way ticket ... there will be no LTD with the Skins.

 

So we might as well engage in damage control ... and my proposal is as good as any.

 

The fans on this Board cannot and should not "wishfully think" that at end of day Skins and KC will kiss and make up. 

 

Second, there is no certainty that a Cutler-led Skins Team will do more poorly than the so-so job Kirk has done the last two years. 

 

He could surprise ... and in any event the Team will be moving on in a positive direction with a high-potential rookie QB being groomed.

 

Standing pat means the Skins are just being held hostage by Cousins for 2017 and delaying the inevitable.

 

 

 

 

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

My thinking is predicated on the supposition that Kirk is on his way out of town with a one-way ticket ... there will be no LTD with the Skins.

 

Yeah, we know you're all about that, even if history is against you in that area. History says the LTD will get done a day or so before the deadline.

 

5 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

So we might as well engage in damage control ... any my proposal is as good as any.

 

The fans on this Board cannot and should not "wishfully think" that at end of day Skins and KC will kiss and make up. 

 

No, some are better than others. Cutler has a great arm, and that is about it. And there is not actual proof there are any hard feelings, outside of bad rumors. I think it's more wishful thinking on your part that there is.

 

5 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

Second, there is no certainty that a Cutler-led Skins Team will do more poorly than the so-so job Kirk has done the last two years. 

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Have you SEEN the Bears with Cutler at QB? With a much better Defense? Going 3-13, getting benched for Matt Barkley and Brian Hoyer?

 

5 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

 

He could surprise ... and in any event the Team will be moving on in a positive direction with a high-potential rookie QB being groomed.

 

Standing pat means the Skins are just being held hostage by Cousins for 2017 and delaying the inevitable.

 

 

 

 

None of these QB's are great prospects, and then it's a crap shoot anyway. Remember RGIII?

The only thing for certain is a 4-12 kind of season, backed with likely 5-7 more of them as we continue to try and find a Franchise QB and being stuck locked in the cellar of the NFC East.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

3 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

Well, if you're going to blame someone for that, it's the F.O. And if, as you suggested they don't get one done this year, and they have to tag him next year.

 

 

Oh, Greg, this would be such a delusional move. Cutler is terrible, and, you really think that by just "drafting some QB" is going to work out? Oh, yes, because we do so well at that. Right now we have some level of respectability. You want us to go back to being the 4-12 bottom dwelling teams we've had in the past with this move.

 

IF Kirk hold us hostage...THIS is a move we SHOULD make. I think Cutler would do fine in Gruden's O. He can make the throws. He could bridge 2-3 years and we'd still be competitive. Again, I WANT KIrk..but if he down't want to be here...so be it

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

IF Kirk hold us hostage...THIS is a move we SHOULD make. I think Cutler would do fine in Gruden's O. He can make the throws. He could bridge 2-3 years and we'd still be competitive. Again, I WANT KIrk..but if he down't want to be here...so be it

 

So, what do you consider "Kirk holding us hostage"?

Culter was terrible on a Bears team that had a better defense, and better running game. Right now the Offense here runs through Kirk.

Cutler got benched for 2 bad QB's last year. And you think he'd keep us competitive? Really?

[carex]

1 hour ago, Gregpeck99 said:

My thinking is predicated on the supposition that Kirk is on his way out of town with a one-way ticket ... there will be no LTD with the Skins.

 

 

well stop thinking that

[Gregpeck99]

19 minutes ago, carex said:

 

well stop thinking that

It is what it is ... Skins screwed-up by tagging him this year ... gave him disproportional leverage.

 

I would love to retain Kirk ... but if not ... let's move on ... 

 

[Morneblade]

6 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

It is what it is ... Skins screwed-up by tagging him this year ... gave him disproportional leverage.

 

I would love to retain Kirk ... but if not ... let's move on ... 

 

 

Then let the process work. Unfortunately it's going to take a couple months. If Bruce bombs again, then we can go with the "sky is falling" scenario.

Likely a better class next year anyway. Keep your chin up GP, it's not all gloom and doom yet.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

So, what do you consider "Kirk holding us hostage"?

Culter was terrible on a Bears team that had a better defense, and better running game. Right now the Offense here runs through Kirk.

Cutler got benched for 2 bad QB's last year. And you think he'd keep us competitive? Really?

He has the physical tools..better than Kirk. Gruden *might* be able to structure an "O" where he can deliver. The Bears "depended" on him to be a game changer. We don't need that to be competitive. Maybe not playoffs, but at least make some noise and be entertaining to December.

 

And Kirk holding hostage = he plays in franchise tag with the INTENT to go somewhere else in 2018 UNLESS we give him Brady/Rogers money PLUS SOME. "Make him an offer he can't refuse vs making an offer that is commensurate with Market Value and we still can pay other players. If he is hell bent on leaving..tell us now. That's all. *I* don't want to break the bank (whatever that bank is..I don't know..but the Skins do)

 

I LIKE Kirk...was for him from year 2013 over RG3 when he couldn't produce. But if he is butt hurt over snyder's bromances...lets ALL move on. Cutler is a GOOD option. If Bruce even THINKS about Kapernick...I AM DONE with the Skins. Been a fan since Sonny and Billy pissed on Theisman!!

[William Barbour]

Again...

 

3 years...72 Million

 

Kirk is not going to sign a deal no matter the money as long as the Tag exists. Doesn't matter if Redskins think he's a franchise QB, a Backup, a Average QB.... Doesn't matter

[WelshSkinsFan]

6 hours ago, Gregpeck99 said:

Skins have painted themselves into a corner with Kirk.

 

The best move would be to trade him to the Browns, 49er's Texans or Jets before the Draft ... sign Cutler to a 2-year deal with incentives.

 

Then Draft Mahomes or Watson and build an exciting new Team!

 

 

 

 

Needs to be re-stated at this point.  None of these teams has made an offer and absent Kirk agreeing to a LTD as part of the trade they won't offer more than a 3rd rounder anyway for a rental.  In that case, even if Kirk does leave next year we might as well keep him and draft his backup and we still get a 3 when he walks, that way we don't need to start our rookie or teach a new starter our offense.  

[bobandweave]

I don't understand the arguments here supporting paying him 25 million a season. Most of the arguments for this given here are false and wrong. 

 

Those saying to do this are pointing out last years stats and ignoring the changes that will come this year. Some want to point to his yards and talk about how his receivers were insignificant. We just lost his two biggest contributors in the passing game to other teams this year. Both were 1000 yard wide outs. Only 25 wideouts across the entire league had 1000 receiving yards last year.

 

For anyone caring about integrity here both of his receivers were given 10+ million dollar a year contracts by other teams. That should show everyone that other teams in this league see them both as valuable assets. 10 million dollar a year deals don't just get handed out to anyone. You have to be good to get those so regardless of your personal opinion about these guys remember money talks. The professionals in this league disagrees with anyone thinking Garcon and Jackson aren't good players.

 

So with that said how does anyone here actually know how Kirk will do with Terrell Pryor and either Brian Quick or Josh Doctson as these replacements without seeing it first? You can pretend to know but that's all your really doing. Pretending. If Kirk does much worse with the new receivers which is a possibility then if you are in the group of supporters saying just pay him, if he does much worse with these new players will you still feel that way?

 

Because of these changes stats from the past two years do not mean anything going forward for Kirk. This teams got a completely different makeup then what the weapons he has here the past two years. I really think some of you need to get this extremely important part understood before seeing it unfold in the regular season and stop pointing out what he did before this season. This is a brand new season with a brand new team with brand new results. Kirk has never shown to be a guy like Tom Brady who you can throw any player on his team and he won't miss a beat of production. Never shown that before so how can anyone reasonably give him this credit? 

Changes are all over this team now. 

 

Sean McVay is gone. He was credited with turning Cousins career around. And now he's gone. When I'm drafting fantasy football teams (already done 10 leagues this year with guys like Evan Silva in the league) one thing I look at is where the play callers move around the league. If you take this approach you would have been in on the Falcons before they broke out as soon as Kyle went there. We know what McVay's offensive calls look like. We last saw Jay Gruden calling plays in 2014. Here's something to chew on if you also think that this change doesn't matter.

 

2016 Redskins ran 95 more offensive plays then they ran in 2014. In 2014 however Kirk averaged more passes per game then he did in 2016. His record was 1-5 as a starting QB that season.  

 

2014 Redskins had a 1000 yard running back but did not have one in 2016. The argument that all Kirk needs is a good RB is false. He had one in 2014 and this did not help Kirk Cousins

 

2014 Kirk Cousins only played in 6 games that year but he had less yards per game passing with more attempts per game. His QBR was lower with Gruden that year.

 

Wins are what we all want from our QB. We didn't become a winning team until Jay Gruden gave up play calling duties. He now has them back. Will the result be different? Completely unknown

 

Thinking that there is no chance that Kirk won't see a drop off in wins and production with Jay calling the plays over Sean should be a serious question mark for all of us today. It should be but I know some of you can't see this. 

 

Me pointing this out now isn't because as some simpleton's want to say - I don't like Kirk Cousins. That is hogwash. I like Kirk Cousins just fine but I have many question marks about him today. Because I voice them here doesn't make me a hater it makes me honest about my thoughts and brave to post them here. 

 

With all of these differences it's amazing to me that Kirk won't sign long term before his bubble bursts but clearly he wants to gamble on himself. The reason this is the first time QB's have done this tag two years in a row thing is not all money is good money. If Kirk were smart he would sign a reasonable deal just in case the bottom falls out on him with the team in transition. If he gambles on himself again and the teams 4-12 next year does anyone think that any team would give him 25 million a season let alone 28 million as some are discussing? No not a chance. If we don't equal what we did the past two seasons which I personally don't see us being able to do, then we won't transition tag him anyway and will just dump him next year. Be like the Patriots and do it a year early!!!

 

That's why I think sticking to a plan of forcing him to sign a reasonable deal this off season was the right thing to do. Now if that's exhausted and it looks like there is no chance to get something that makes sense done with Kirk then we should just bite the bullet and ship him out to Texas, then use that freed up cap money on someone like Hankins, and we draft a QB with the picked up draft pick we got from moving Kirk. A QB like Patrick Mahomes or Mitchell Trubisky or even DeShone Kizer if they are there at 17 makes a lot of sense for rebuilding this. If we are worried all three are gone, we can package the draft pick we got from Cousins to move up to get one of these guys. If we fail to get one of them then lets end the debate about Colt McCoy and give him the team. He will lead us to 4 wins, and a high draft pick next year to get a new QB in a supposedly QB deep draft.