The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Llevron]

Just now, Morneblade said:

 

And you still want to move on? Not sure how logical that is.

 

I think his continued salary will be more of a detriment and that the way to win in the NFL now is to have as many talented young guys on rookie or prove it contracts as possible. 

 

He will never have a rookie or prove it contract again and I think with enough weapons in place, Jay can get enough out of any passer. Much less about moving on from him and more moving on as a team. 

 

I also think hes a jerk personally and doesnt want to be here at all. But that has little to do with my position on his salary versus our needs. Ill pay Jerry Jones if he was cheap and a winner. No **** lol

[petedaddy]

Just now, Llevron said:

 

I think his continued salary will be more of a detriment and that the way to win in the NFL now is to have as many talented young guys on rookie or prove it contracts as possible. 

 

He will never have a rookie or prove it contract again and I think with enough weapons in place, Jay can get enough out of any passer. Much less about moving on from him and more moving on as a team. 

 

I also think hes a jerk personally and doesnt want to be here at all. But that has little to do with my position on his salary versus our needs. Ill pay Jerry Jones if he was cheap and a winner. No **** lol

 

ugh Llevron ... come on now

 

you still have to look at the fact of how many Super Bowls have been won by mediocre or worse QBs

 

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are the worst QBs to win Super Bowls in the last 25 years, and they did it more on the backs of their defenses

 

Russell Wilson, Eli Manning, and Joe Flacco aren't the greatest QBs in the world, but they are certainly above average, but they also had elite portions of defense which we are nowhere close to having

 

I agree we need the talented young guys on defense, but you still need a QB to guide the way

 

as far as Jay getting enough out of any passer, that certainly didn't seem to be the case in 2014, and it's not like Andy Dalton did a face plant after Jay left.  You still have to have the talent which Kirk certainly does

 

As far as thinking Kirk is a jerk, I don't get that at all.  I would say that stems from your belief that he doesn't want to be here

 

In my opinion, Kirk has been a saint in dealing with all of the things that he has endured here.  I'm not sure I could have been as big a man as he has been in dealing with some of the controversies

[Morneblade]

18 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I think his continued salary will be more of a detriment and that the way to win in the NFL now is to have as many talented young guys on rookie or prove it contracts as possible. 

 

He will never have a rookie or prove it contract again and I think with enough weapons in place, Jay can get enough out of any passer. Much less about moving on from him and more moving on as a team. 

 

I also think hes a jerk personally and doesnt want to be here at all. But that has little to do with my position on his salary versus our needs. Ill pay Jerry Jones if he was cheap and a winner. No **** lol

 

/facepalm

 

The salary "issue" isn't a issue. The cap keeps going up, and in a couple years, when the next QB signs Cousins salery will be foregotten, Just like Andrew Lucks deal has already been. Right now, it's the % of the cap that is the big deal. And if you want to talk about current salery, you can put that on the FA for putting out a low ball deal last year that he would have been stupid to sign.

 

"He will never have a rookie or prove it contract". Are you being serious? Of course he will never have another rookie deal. HE'S NOT A ROOKIE. Or a one year prove it deal? Dude, that was last year. So, just cut bait, and go 4-12 after this year? Dumb.

 

Jay can get enough out of any passer? What like he did RGIII? Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Jay might have a good offense (or maybe he's just had good QB's running and making it look better, ever think of that? No?) but you still need a good QB. You think Colt is going to win a SB with us? Really?

 

And you think he's a jerk because he's waiting on a decent contract that doesn't skimp on guaranteed money? Other than that, WTF has he done for you to think he's a jerk?

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

You guys that are all in on giving Cousins his monster contract need to watch this. NFL networks "Next Gen Stats" on Cousins. Those stats are the reason I am so concerned about giving Cousins the monster contract he wants. And I am sure it is the reason the Skins are hesitant as well:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/washington-redskins/0ap3000000796557/Next-Gen-Stats-Preview-Will-Pryor-work-with-Cousins

 

This video just showed me we needed a tall ****ing WR like years ago!!! Fade to Djax were embarrassing to say the least. 

[bobandweave]

 

19 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

I have you on /ignore, but occationally look at what you post. Most of the time, it's crazy and unsupported - It never is crazy or unsupported, in fact its best that since your so sensative to a different point of view that you keep me on ignore. I was unaware you were rude like especially how old you are so after this post consider yourself ignored as well. There are many posters on here that aren't as wrong and insulting like this I'd rather talk to

 

 This is another one of those posts. Dalton never put up Cousins numbers in Grudens "QB friendly" offense. - Talk about unsupported and crazy ideas

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14012/andy-dalton

 

With Jay Andy's career stats are highest with TDs, yards thrown, and passing attempts with Jay. Nothing nonfactual about that unless your version of truth is wrong

 

19 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

 Dalton has A.J. Green. Dalton has had a much better defense that Cousins has ever had to support him. And Cousins is a 2 year starter. He hasn't really had any opportunity to have all the signature wins you're talking about, and yet he has quite a few of them. - Cousins has been in the league one less season then Dalton and Cousins like Dalton did is taking advantage of a pass happy and friendly offense. When he leaves we will see who the real Kirk Cousins is. If he fails will you admit you were wrong about him as well? 

 

Basically, you don't like him. That's fine, but at least own it. - This is bull. 

 

As for what's best for the team, the best thing would be to pony up the cash and sign him. Anything else is just short sighted stupidity. - Wrong as well tying ourselves to Jay long term is what's best for this team. Tying ourselves to the most expensive contract in the league to a top 15 QB because we are afraid of starting over is short sighted and stupid. Cousins is not the best QB in the league today and should not be paid like he is. 

 

I posted some information that you may or may not have read a little further back in this thread about how often we have been able to draft a excellent QB. - So in other words your intellectually purposely being untruthful and you think I should buy into this? If what you said above "the best thing would be to pony up the cash and sign him" is true and your drafted QBs list doesn't include Kirk then your point about what's best for the team is wrong.

 

If KC doesn't belong on the list of Redskins drafted QBs then he shouldn't be the top paid QB in the league PERIOD. Also your list didn't include our last winning Superbowl Champion QB I noticed. Your list is way too short. If Kirk doesn't deserve to be on that list then you can't pay him like he does

 

Our only other great QB was Sonny Jurgensen, which we acquired via trade in 1964, 53 years ago. - And this list left off the QB who led this team to two Superbowls winning one of them Joe Theismann who we acquired in a trade with the Dolphins and played his entire career here.  Your list and point leaves way too much to be desired to take anything you say seriously

 

At this rate, it will be another 80 years, and I don't expect to live that much longer. - Just because your attitude is one of a quitter and that you have issues doesn't mean thankfully the Redskins will think this way. Take your ball and go home if you think the future of the team without Cousins is nothing worth watching. Cousins is not the Redskins and never will be. He's a chapter in the long history of the team that's it. The team will go on with or without him. 

 

[Taylor 36]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

Because I pointed out the obvious in this thread yesterday does not mean that I don't respect KC, if your getting that from my posts about exploring what's best for the team in this situation your saying that because you can't handle an honest assesment of this situation, for being very old school this is a new way of communicating I don't believe in. There are lots of reasons to not think that he's a top 10 QB in the league yet, never said he couldn't be that one day but to be a top 10 QB it requires more then just guady stats to get there. It requires signature wins and playoff wins something he lacks. That stage has been to big for him so far. Pointing at Andy Dalton as something to consider in the question of how good he actually is when he's playing in a very QB friendly offense now when judging him is something that everyone should consider as well, neither is disrespectful to the man its just integrity speaking 

 

 

 

 

So, we're back to this, huh?  I thought twice about responding to you because of your posting history of nonsense and faux superiority and delusions of grandeur towards others, only to cry when you get called out on it.  I thought maybe you had grown up, but that's what I get for giving you the benefit of the doubt.  This will be my last post to you because a., I am not going to waste my time anymore with you, and b., most importantly, @thesubmittedone has already had to get involved with your nonsense before, and I don't want to cause any more issues for that guy to have to deal with. He asked that we just report you from now on rather than respond and hurt your feelings, so that is what I will do.  

 

I will say this, at least learn how to use the quote feature so that other posters don't have to quote unnecessary huge globs of text when responding to you.  I don't want to see someone get on the bad side of the mods for large quotes because you can't use a basic feature.

[Morneblade]

1 minute ago, zskins said:

 

This video just showed me we needed a tall ****ing WR like years ago!!! Fade to Djax were embarrassing to say the least. 

 

And we went and got 2, plus hope to have another back from injury. Looks like that got taken care of.

[Morneblade]

@bobandweave

 

If you are going to quote, try to do so in a way that isn't a complete mess. For instance, if you want to respond to a long post and break it up so you can respond to points in the post, try, breaking it up. If you don't know how, you can ask.

 

I didn't bother reading through your rebuttal because your first points were nonsensical. Thanks you for reminding me why I have you on ignore, and I doubt I'll bother peaking anymore.

[Taylor 36]

7 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

And we went and got 2, plus hope to have another back from injury. Looks like that got taken care of.

I really hope so!!!  I know it was for the best to let Garcon walk because of what he wanted, but he was a beast in our offense the last couple of years, blocking and receiving.  Jackson was a one trick pony that was too often sidelined with injuries and will be losing a step here pretty soon.  I hope our Receiving Corp with step in and, with size and youth, be an improvement.  Now, if we could just get a consistent RB or RB tandem that can get 100 a game, that would be great and help Kirk captain this this team deep in the PO's.

[Morneblade]

1 minute ago, Taylor 36 said:

I really hope so!!!  I know it was for the best to let Garcon walk because of what he wanted, but he was a beast in our offense the last couple of years, blocking and receiving.  Jackson was a one trick pony that was too often sidelined with injuries and will be losing a step here pretty soon.  I hope our Receiving Corp with step in and, with size and youth, be an improvement.  Now, if we could just get a consistent RB or RB tandem that can get 100 a game, that would be great and help Kirk captain this this team deep in the PO's.

 

I'm going to miss Garcon as well, I really respected his toughness and great hands. But I feel really good about what we have right now, and I'm also hoping we we take a shot at Josh Malone in the later rounds. Big guy that can fly. I think we're in good shape offensively, but I would love to upgrade LG.

[ILikeBilly]

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

.... There are lots of reasons to not think that he's a top 10 QB in the league yet, never said he couldn't be that one day but to be a top 10 QB it requires more then just guady stats to get there. It requires signature wins and playoff wins something he lacks. That stage has been to big for him so far. Pointing at Andy Dalton as something to consider in the question of how good he actually is when he's playing in a very QB friendly offense now when judging him is something that everyone should consider as well, neither is disrespectful to the man its just integrity speaking 

 

 

 

 

So, I guess you think Dan Marino is way over rated too.  Kirk has 2 years as a starter, with only 1 where he was the starter all off-season.  Marino had an entire career.  He is pretty much void of (to use your words) "signature wins and playoff wins." 

For me, lock up the QB, then build the D so that you can win the championships.

 

PS - for full disclosure, I have to admit that I have argued on this board that I would take Terry Bradshaw 9 out of 10 times over Marino because of the signature wins. 

1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

To add to this, no Fantasy stats do not matter because not every team runs the same offensive system. Some offenses allow a QB to pass many more times then others. Kirk Cousins threw the ball 70 more times last season then Wilson did. Why? Because the offensive scheme that these two teams run are different. The average number of passing attempts league wide last year was 36 pass attempts per game so that's like adding two full games to KC's bloated stats over Wilson's. Seattle does not run that type of offense. They were 23rd in the league in pass attempts per game compared to our offense which was 7th but Seattle was 15th in rushing attempts per game vs our 27th ranking rushes per game. Two completely different offensive philosophies at play so straight up comparisons using only metrics doesn't make sense  

This is the chicken/egg argument.  Is a volvo an extra safe car or does it seem that way because the people that buy them are older and want more safety and therefore drive in a safer manner?

 

Does Wilson have 70 less throws than Kirk because of the offense he is in, or because the coach doesn't trust Wilson to throw that much and therefore alters the offense to overcome a deficiency?  If Wilson is in the Skins' offense, does he throw more INTs?

[Llevron]

45 minutes ago, petedaddy said:

 

ugh Llevron ... come on now

 

you still have to look at the fact of how many Super Bowls have been won by mediocre or worse QBs

 

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are the worst QBs to win Super Bowls in the last 25 years, and they did it more on the backs of their defenses

 

Russell Wilson, Eli Manning, and Joe Flacco aren't the greatest QBs in the world, but they are certainly above average, but they also had elite portions of defense which we are nowhere close to having

 

I agree we need the talented young guys on defense, but you still need a QB to guide the way

 

as far as Jay getting enough out of any passer, that certainly didn't seem to be the case in 2014, and it's not like Andy Dalton did a face plant after Jay left.  You still have to have the talent which Kirk certainly does

 

As far as thinking Kirk is a jerk, I don't get that at all.  I would say that stems from your belief that he doesn't want to be here

 

In my opinion, Kirk has been a saint in dealing with all of the things that he has endured here.  I'm not sure I could have been as big a man as he has been in dealing with some of the controversies

 

40 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

/facepalm

 

The salary "issue" isn't a issue. The cap keeps going up, and in a couple years, when the next QB signs Cousins salery will be foregotten, Just like Andrew Lucks deal has already been. Right now, it's the % of the cap that is the big deal. And if you want to talk about current salery, you can put that on the FA for putting out a low ball deal last year that he would have been stupid to sign.

 

"He will never have a rookie or prove it contract". Are you being serious? Of course he will never have another rookie deal. HE'S NOT A ROOKIE. Or a one year prove it deal? Dude, that was last year. So, just cut bait, and go 4-12 after this year? Dumb.

 

Jay can get enough out of any passer? What like he did RGIII? Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Jay might have a good offense (or maybe he's just had good QB's running and making it look better, ever think of that? No?) but you still need a good QB. You think Colt is going to win a SB with us? Really?

 

And you think he's a jerk because he's waiting on a decent contract that doesn't skimp on guaranteed money? Other than that, WTF has he done for you to think he's a jerk?

 

Dudes, its cool we dont agree. I already have been here with yall on this and I know we dont agree lol. We dont have to its cool. Just my opinion on it. Llevron thinks that you win with defense, not offense, and that building to that is the way to go. Not giving all your moneys to 1 guy and hoping he loves you afterwards. Thats how Llevron would avoid the problem we are in and win some games. 

 

I totally think we can find a Joe Flacco @petedaddy 

@Morneblade Uh...yea. Hes not a rookie? And he wont get a prove it deal. That time is passed. Somehow you agree with my point, miss it, and then call me dumb lol. Thats stupid. 

@ Both of yall - When did we start characterizing RG3 as a passer? And when did we start expecting someone like Colt McCoy to preform in the top 10 of his position in the first year of a new system? As a back up? Yall gotta do better. 

 

I dont like your fav. player. Get over it. Dont know why YOU think we have to agree. Just stating my opinion should be enough. And whats funny is that I was agreeing with you both in that he is a top 10. Yall are just looking for a knife fight in this joint lol

[clskinsfan]

16 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said:

So, I guess you think Dan Marino is way over rated too.  Kirk has 2 years as a starter, with only 1 where he was the starter all off-season.  Marino had an entire career. 

 

So now we are comparing Kirk to Marino!! LMAO. Kirk HAS FIVE YEARS IN THE LEAGUE, This two year argument is garbage. He played plenty in his first three years. And he didnt play very well except in spurts. The video I posted touched on what I have been concerned with. Poor redzone passing. Poor TD% and poor short and medium ball accuracy. By the way Kirk is no where near the QB that Marino was. the difference between they way they lose games is staggering. Marino played extremely well in big games. He just didnt get to play in many of them. He is IMO the best pure passer of the football to ever live.

[purbeast]

3 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

You guys that are all in on giving Cousins his monster contract need to watch this. NFL networks "Next Gen Stats" on Cousins. Those stats are the reason I am so concerned about giving Cousins the monster contract he wants. And I am sure it is the reason the Skins are hesitant as well:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/washington-redskins/0ap3000000796557/Next-Gen-Stats-Preview-Will-Pryor-work-with-Cousins

I'll take watching the past 2 seasons full of his game play over watching a 3 minute video.

[ILikeBilly]

47 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

So now we are comparing Kirk to Marino!! LMAO. Kirk HAS FIVE YEARS IN THE LEAGUE, This two year argument is garbage. He played plenty in his first three years. And he didnt play very well except in spurts. The video I posted touched on what I have been concerned with. Poor redzone passing. Poor TD% and poor short and medium ball accuracy. By the way Kirk is no where near the QB that Marino was. the difference between they way they lose games is staggering. Marino played extremely well in big games. He just didnt get to play in many of them. He is IMO the best pure passer of the football to ever live.

Sure, I'll compare the two.  Both have lots of yards, high completion percentage and lack of big wins.  Are you saying Dan the Man lost the big games not because of his play, but maybe because of his team's defense?  Well, Kirk could claim the same thing.  Kirk still has years ahead of him to get those wins.  Let's sign him and build the D.  We can do both. 

 

The point I was making is that B&Weave was saying that a good reason not to pay Kirk so much is that he hasn't been clutch in the big games.  I was trying to point out that other QBs that we all KNOW are great also have that problem.  Elway was known as a choke artists until his last 2 years.  Romo, outside of dallas will always be know for choking. 

[clskinsfan]

47 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I'll take watching the past 2 seasons full of his game play over watching a 3 minute video.

Watching his game play or the video doesnt erase his stats.

[Taylor 36]

18 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Watching his game play or the video doesnt erase his stats.

Of course they don't, which is great for Kirk considering his stats put him in the top 10, even top 5 for some, of the league for the last couple of years.

[clskinsfan]

Just now, Taylor 36 said:

Of course they don't, which is great for Kirk considering SOME OF his stats put him in the top 10, even top 5 for some, of the league for the last couple of years.

 

Fixed that for you....While other of his stats put him towards the bottom of the league. Just saying.

[petedaddy]

Just now, clskinsfan said:

 

Fixed that for you....While other of his stats put him towards the bottom of the league. Just saying.

 

as opposed to the QBs where every stat puts them at the top of the league

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, petedaddy said:

 

as opposed to the QBs where every stat puts them at the top of the league

 

The good ones yes. Kirk is a middle of the pack starter in this league. There is nothing wrong with that. He is the best option we have right now. I hope we sign him. But he isnt worth what its going to cost to do it IMO. 

[petedaddy]

Just now, clskinsfan said:

 

The good ones yes. Kirk is a middle of the pack starter in this league. There is nothing wrong with that. He is the best option we have right now. I hope we sign him. But he isnt worth what its going to cost to do it IMO. 

 

that's funny... i think maybe you should go review some more stats...i love the guys who cherry pick the negative stats but ignore the positive stats to make their case

 

kirk is far better than a middle of the pack starter, but we have already went through that many times in this thread and others ... some get it and some don't, it's ok

[clskinsfan]

12 minutes ago, petedaddy said:

 

that's funny... i think maybe you should go review some more stats...i love the guys who cherry pick the negative stats but ignore the positive stats to make their case

 

kirk is far better than a middle of the pack starter, but we have already went through that many times in this thread and others ... some get it and some don't, it's ok

 

I would love for guys like you to list out the Qb's you have rated over Kirk. Because there are at least 15 of them I would take over him right now for various reasons. Most of those 15 are just flat out better players. But some are young and have more upside (Wentz, Prescott, Winston and Mariotta) come to mind. I would also take Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Carr, Luck, Roethlisberger, Wilson. Rivers, Stafford and Flacco over him right now. That puts Kirk at 16th on my list. Or middle of the road like I said. I am going to assume your list is shorter. But like you said some get it and some dont.

 

Oh and you can throw Cam on that list as well. So move Kirk on down to 17.

[purbeast]

56 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Watching his game play or the video doesnt erase his stats.

His gameplay tells me that he is a viable quarterback who can lead this team to places they haven't been in 2 decades.  

 

I'm still amazed that some people on this forum still don't know what overpay means.

[petedaddy]

Just now, clskinsfan said:

 

I would love for guys like you to list out the Qb's you have rated over Kirk. Because there are at least 15 of them I would take over him right now for various reasons. Most of those 15 are just flat out better players. But some are young and have more upside (Wentz, Prescott, Winston and Mariotta) come to mind. I would also take Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Carr, Luck, Roethlisberger, Wilson. Rivers, Stafford and Flacco over him right now. That puts Kirk at 16th on my list. Or middle of the road like I said. I am going to assume your list is shorter. But like you said some get it and some dont.

 

Oh and you can throw Cam on that list as well. So move Kirk on down to 17.

 

are you just trolling me now?  or is that meant to be serious?

 

for real question

[clskinsfan]

6 minutes ago, petedaddy said:

 

are you just trolling me now?  or is that meant to be serious?

 

for real question

 

Lets see your list of QB's you would take over Kirk right now. This should be interesting.

 

Just curious did you even watch the video? Or are you just defending to defend?

 

Oh. And I believe you are the one trolling me. You replied to me as a guy that "just doesnt get it"

 

7 minutes ago, purbeast said:

His gameplay tells me that he is a viable quarterback who can lead this team to places they haven't been in 2 decades.  

Agreed. Viable is good term for him. Not paid like a top 3 guy.