Jay Gruden: Buy or Sell

[Warhead36]

How many coaches are legit better than Gruden? I mean Bellicheck sure, but after that? Any coach you name just has more talent. Guys like Andy Reid, Mike McCarthy, and Mike Tomlin continue to make boneheaded blunder after boneheaded blunder and they've been coaching for years.

On 12/21/2016 at 10:10 AM, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I am not crazy about Gruden because without checking, it seems to me that he never beats a real good team when he has to.

We beat the Giants in New York in Week 3 which was essentially a must win game since we were 0-2. We also beat the Ravens in Baltimore who are a playoff contender. We beat the Packers on national TV who are a playoff contender. Last year we went into Philly and won a game that decided the division.

 

But I guess wins in the NFL don't count unless you beat the Patriots in Foxboro.

[Wildbunny]

11 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

What's the obsession with Fangio? The Bears D is just as bad as ours if not worse. And you can say "Fangio doesn't have players", well neither does Barry.

 

Harbaugh was the reason those 49ers Ds were great.

If I was Jay Gruden and Fangio was to be fired from Chicago, I wouldn't even called him back. Guy was our first choice and we held back Joe Barry's signing until we interviewed him and he turned us down.

No way I call the guy for the job, no matter what Joe is doing right now. I'd rather go with a young uprising positional coach from somewhere else. (Haven't got names to throw to the crowd, don't ask me :P)

 

3 hours ago, skinzplay said:

 

That's how I see it, too. Fangio without Capers or Harbaugh is like Wannstedt or Norv without Jimmy. I'll pass.

 

One thing, though -- I think Olivadotti is gone after this season, and Manusky might get another shot somewhere as a DC, so there should be a LB coach opening should Jay decide to keep Barry, and if Barry decides to accept the demotion. He might as well. Nobody else in the league is going to hire him as a DC.

I don't see how you could tell Joe to go back to LB coaching here. That's the kind of move you can do on another team, but not the same.

 

2 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

 

It's going to be hard to win more than 11 when all 4 teams in the NFC east are back and legit.  

Yes, that'll be hard, but if we beat the Giants next week we'll be 4-2 this year with our only two losses against Dallas, that's not bad for this year.

 

11 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

How many coaches are legit better than Gruden? I mean Bellicheck sure, but after that? Any coach you name just has more talent. Guys like Andy Reid, Mike McCarthy, and Mike Tomlin continue to make boneheaded blunder after boneheaded blunder and they've been coaching for years.

We beat the Giants in New York in Week 3 which was essentially a must win game since we were 0-2. We also beat the Ravens in Baltimore who are a playoff contender. We beat the Packers on national TV who are a playoff contender. Last year we went into Philly and won a game that decided the division.

 

But I guess wins in the NFL don't count unless you beat the Patriots in Foxboro.

I tend to think that around here teams we beat are bad because of excuse A and B. We're definately not fair when it comes down to our team.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

He's doing a good job. He'll be the first coach to make it to year 5 and the first coach to be extended under Snyder.

[@DCGoldPants]

This offseason will be crucial for Gruden. NFL coaches are a fraternity. But if would be much better if he's the guy that acknowledged the need for a better DC. Not the GM. 

[Darth Tater]

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

I tend to think that around here teams we beat are bad because of excuse A and B. We're definately not fair when it comes down to our team.

We have not followed up a decent year with an even better year for a long, long time.  We have been the victims of our extreme fan-hood for so long, we have grown to excuse other teams for what we won't excuse in our own team.

[Wildbunny]

W've been victims of crappy play and Vinny years fot too long. Some of us have been struck so deeply that they're having trouble healing from this and don't trust a competent GM when they see one.

It'll take time, but we'll make it through.

[TheCoach22]

To the question of who are the "good coaches:" Bill O'Brien is making chicken salad out of chicken ****... I wanted BoB when we hired Jay. Hue Jackson is a good coach too, but obviously he is going to fail more than he succeeds in the immediate future with the Browns. It isn't about W-L alone, at least not for me. I believe these are two guys with a presence that Jay lacks.

 

Gruden knows QB play and he knows his WC system... he cannot manage the clock, he is suspect with thre hiring/firing/selection of coaches, shaky with the split-second decision making, and he doesn't really inspire.

 

I know players like him because he paces practices for the course of a long season... but an elite coach doesn't allow his team to get manhandled the way we did to open the season, or abused like we were on MNF last week. That is what separates good from great.

[Hooper]

Good Lord, we have two winning seasons in a row. For the first time in 20 years, I feel like we are not dysfunctional. I'm buying Jay Gruden without hesitation.

[justice98]

5 hours ago, konga2145 said:

well nobody else seems be able beat this beat up packer team have they vut we did by 20 pointgs

 

This Packer team now is different than that team then.  They were reeling when we played them. I dont think we'd beat this version of GB.

[RedskinsMayne]

Long Gruden, Short Barry, Put Option on Cousins.

[NoVaSkins21]

IF they get to the playoffs, then I'm buying Gruden 100% for sure.  Back to back winning seasons and in the postseason.  Probably give him an extension as well.

[Warhead36]

4 hours ago, TheCoach22 said:

To the question of who are the "good coaches:" Bill O'Brien is making chicken salad out of chicken ****... I wanted BoB when we hired Jay. Hue Jackson is a good coach too, but obviously he is going to fail more than he succeeds in the immediate future with the Browns. It isn't about W-L alone, at least not for me. I believe these are two guys with a presence that Jay lacks.

 

Gruden knows QB play and he knows his WC system... he cannot manage the clock, he is suspect with thre hiring/firing/selection of coaches, shaky with the split-second decision making, and he doesn't really inspire.

 

I know players like him because he paces practices for the course of a long season... but an elite coach doesn't allow his team to get manhandled the way we did to open the season, or abused like we were on MNF last week. That is what separates good from great.

O'Brien's D in Houston is really good. They were also a rock solid playoff team. In 2013(year before O'Brien took over)they were 2-14 but the years prior they were 12-4 and 10-6. I don't deny that O'Brien is a good coach but I don't think he's discernibly better then Gruden. He'll finish with back to back 9-10 win seasons, about on par with Gruden. And their division this year is god awful. 5 of the Texans 9 wins this year were against their division opponents.

 

As far as not able to manage the clock, that is a problem for a LOT of coaches. Andy Reid has had that problem for over 15 years. As far as the hiring of coaches, what about bringing in Bill Callahan to coach the OL? And I don't buy that he doesn't inspire. If players are playing hard for him, which they seem to be doing, he is inspiring. I mean we were 0-2 down double digits in Week 3 at New York and the team rallied to win. Doesn't Gruden get some credit for that?

 

Elite coaches have bad games all the time. Bellicheck's Patriots got crushed at home by the Bills earlier this year, and last year had a game where they were crushed by Chip Kelly's Eagles at home(the same Chip Kelly's Eagles that Gruden's team swept by the way).

[DC9]

My only gripe with Gruden continues to be that he needs to hire someone damn good to sit in the booth and inspire him to challenge plays.

 

I think he'll do that this next year.

 

I've been a huge fan of him since he got here and the only guy I would've brought in ahead of him during the coaching search that year was David Shaw.  I think I'll keep Jay, he's been outstanding.

 

Next year is going to be a big one for him and I think he knows that.  We should be ready to make a run depending on how this offseason goes.  Hopefully he makes the moves he needs to to adjust his staff accordingly.

[Est.1974]

Once over it was a struggle for this team to score 20 points. Now we get 40 in a game and people still take issue with things......

 

This is a big offseason though, with cap space by the bucket load and a healthy set of draft picks we have to hit the next level in 2017.

 

There is no margin to regress from here on in, IMO.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

How many coaches are legit better than Gruden? I mean Bellicheck sure, but after that? Any coach you name just has more talent. Guys like Andy Reid, Mike McCarthy, and Mike Tomlin continue to make boneheaded blunder after boneheaded blunder and they've been coaching for years.

We beat the Giants in New York in Week 3 which was essentially a must win game since we were 0-2. We also beat the Ravens in Baltimore who are a playoff contender. We beat the Packers on national TV who are a playoff contender. Last year we went into Philly and won a game that decided the division.

 

But I guess wins in the NFL don't count unless you beat the Patriots in Foxboro.

I do not see the Giants or Philly as a top tier team. The Packers, this year had a stretch where they lost 5 of 6 games and had problems at that time. We were lucky to catch them when they were down. I think we would have a lot harder time now esp in Green Bay. When I say top tier I mean teams like the Pats, Steelers, Hawks, Cards, Panthers. Beat one of those teams, in prime time on the road and I will be impressed.

[Warhead36]

40 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I do not see the Giants or Philly as a top tier team. The Packers, this year had a stretch where they lost 5 of 6 games and had problems at that time. We were lucky to catch them when they were down. I think we would have a lot harder time now esp in Green Bay. When I say top tier I mean teams like the Pats, Steelers, Hawks, Cards, Panthers. Beat one of those teams, in prime time on the road and I will be impressed.

Thats an absurd standard. How many teams go into Foxboro and win a primetime game? By that standard nobody is a good coach.

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

15 hours ago, SAli457180 said:

IF they get to the playoffs, then I'm buying Gruden 100% for sure.  Back to back winning seasons and in the postseason.  Probably give him an extension as well.

 

That's too results-oriented for me given where we are right now. What if we beat the Giants by 14 on Sunday, but the other things don't fall our way? How would you evaluate him any differently? 

 

Since he's proven he can develop a roster and compete for two straight years, I don't have any hesitation in continuing to roll with him. It's not to say I expect that he'll become the second-coming of Joe Gibbs. He could still plateau at 9-10 wins. But, he took over a 3-13 team that was a mess when it came to chain-of-command, accountability, etc. He stumbled in year one while getting things the way he needed them and has now put together two very solid years...nothing amazing, but very encouraging! 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

43 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I do not see the Giants or Philly as a top tier team. The Packers, this year had a stretch where they lost 5 of 6 games and had problems at that time. We were lucky to catch them when they were down. I think we would have a lot harder time now esp in Green Bay. When I say top tier I mean teams like the Pats, Steelers, Hawks, Cards, Panthers. Beat one of those teams, in prime time on the road and I will be impressed.

 

So, given how the Cards have done this year, you would have considered THAT a statement win if a couple things went our way in the second half? But you don't consider the Packer game significant because they struggled for a few games this season? You don't get to take a NFL blueblood off the list for a few weeks because they weren't playing well. Otherwise, you'd have to take the Steelers, Seahawks, and Panthers off your list too. 

 

I don't think there's a single event that proves a coach has arrived, outside of winning a championship. And, once that happens a team's decision is usually made for them. To me, it's more a feel...and this team has a much better aura around it than I've seen since Snyder took over. Again..no guarantees, but I like the trend that I'm seeing. 

[Gregpeck99]

IMO, Gruden has not proved himself as HC of our storied Franchise.

 

He is on thin ice!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

9 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

IMO, Gruden has not proved himself as HC of our storied Franchise.

 

He is on thin ice!

 

In over 80 years as a franchise, I think we have exactly 3 coaches who have stayed more than 2 years and have over a .500 record (Ray Flaherty, George Allen, and Joe Gibbs). I'm not sure what's so "storied" about the other 20-something men who have come here and failed (passes to one-year guys like Lombardi and Schottenheimer). What has Gruden not proven over 3 years that tell us he isn't a significantly better coach than Bill McPeak, Norv Turner, and Otto Graham? 

[DC9]

27 minutes ago, Gregpeck99 said:

IMO, Gruden has not proved himself as HC of our storied Franchise.

 

He is on thin ice!

 

 

[Ray-Ban Dan]

1 hour ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I do not see the Giants or Philly as a top tier team. The Packers, this year had a stretch where they lost 5 of 6 games and had problems at that time. We were lucky to catch them when they were down. I think we would have a lot harder time now esp in Green Bay. When I say top tier I mean teams like the Pats, Steelers, Hawks, Cards, Panthers.  Beat one of those teams, in prime time on the road and I will be impressed.

How can a team that's never had back-to-back winning seasons be considered top tier?

[Bang]

perfect world..  Minnesota decides they slid too hard and stupidly fires Mike Zimmer, who comes here to be our DC and win Super Bowls.

 

~Bang

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

In the past, we had coaches and teams that would beat "top tier" teams while going 5-11. They also lost a LOT of games to mediocre-to-poor teams with regularity. But those wins against top-tier teams had a lot of us thinking we were "better than our record", "Heading in the right direction", etc, etc. We never were.

 

Biggest piece of optimism from last year was not that we beat top-tier teams--we didn't beat a single team with a winning record--it was that we beat the poor-to-mediocre teams...we finally started beating the teams we were supposed to beat with regularity.  This year, we weren't supposed to do well because we had a 1st place schedule with a lot more teams that had winning records last year...so obviously we'd come back down to earth. But so far we've beaten the 10-5 Giants, the 9-6 Packers, and the 8-7 Ravens. The losses have been to teams with winning records, except for two teams with losing records: Cardinals and Panthers--the two teams from last year's NFC Championship Game.

 

We're legitimately heading in the direction we've all been wanting for decades now. Gruden is a significant reason why. I'm buying for now.

[Birdlives]

My standard for success this year was 8 wins. We met that criteria. I would keep things as they are and continue to build. Would love to see a change at DC but that's about it. It would have to be a scenario as Bang noted above, too. A legit successful DC in the vein of a LeBeau, Johnson, Zimmer type.