Jay Gruden: Buy or Sell

[SWFLSkins]

3 hours ago, NewCliche21 said:

Just a note that while Gruden went with Barry, Fangiano decided to go with the Bears instead of us.  Understandable since they seemed closer to having it together (Cutler wasn't THIS bad/injured).  It's not that Barry was his first choice.  Also saw a PFT article that the Bears may be considering a massive overhaul that could include letting Fangiano go.

 

 

Good points. Still wished he took Wade instead, but he didn't. 

3 hours ago, DC9 said:

 

I understand that. 

 

Say the mistertim family is challenging the DC9 family to a good ole' thanksgiving eat a thon.

 

Your family eats more per plate, but you only get two plates.

 

My family eats less per plate, but we get 4 plates and at the end we win.

 

If we got more opportunities with the ball, our redzone offense would improve both based on the math and based on refining what works down there.

 

 

Why do I feel like this is sixth grade math? hahaa. btw Adam I was on reiterating what you were saying, hhaaa.

 

Now if Johnny has two bikes and leaves D.C. Adams and he rides them both to Kalamazoo, which bike gets there first?  

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

The offense isn't just above average, its elite. 2nd in yards per game, 5th in 1st downs per game, 3rd in 3rd down %, and 8th in TOP.

 

10th in points per game, which may not be elite, but remember points also factors in D/ST returns and also scoring off short fields which we never get.

 

The offense is championship caliber. Too bad the defense couldn't stop an ACC team.

 

Its not an elite offense, but I understand the definition of elite is a matter of opinion.

 

For me, I'm not at a point where I believe the offense is dominate and puts opposing defenses on their heals. The offense doesn't dictate flow of the game or put extra pressure on opposition's offense to put up more points than their accustom to. Rarely does the offense step on the throat of the teams when opportunities present themselves to do so. They're a good offense, but still haven't shown elite qualities, in my opinion.

 

Some of the stats are cool though. 

 

 

 

 

[jpage520]

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

 

Not every offense can put Fitzgerald in the slot or David Johnson at WR. And Carson Palmer even if old, is still good. Not everyone have a Ezekiel Elliott or Dez Bryant to put against us.

 

Granted. But four games a year for the foreseeable future will pit our defense against the likes of Dez, Dak, Zeke, Beckham, Cruz, and Eli. And you and I both know the matchups with the former weigh much heavier with the fans and Redskins brass than any of the other games. Even without that, to build a winner, you need to start by building a team that wins your division. We just happen to play in the division that holds some of the premier talent in the league. Which sucks from a standpoint of looking for any easy route to the playoffs, but is great for conditioning to play against the weaker teams in the league who don't have to face guys like that twice a year.

[SWFLSkins]

OG Kirk Cousins Fan ‏@TheCasualHero  2m2 minutes ago

It's remarkable that #Redskins are top 10 in points per drive with RZ issues, and LAST in drives per game but still 2nd in total offense.

[JSSkinz]

14 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Its not an elite offense, but I understand the definition of elite is a matter of opinion.

 

For me, I'm not at a point where I believe the offense is dominate and puts opposing defenses on their heals. The offense doesn't dictate flow of the game or put extra pressure on opposition's offense to put up more points than their accustom to. Rarely does the offense step on the throat of the teams when opportunities present themselves to do so. They're a good offense, but still haven't shown elite qualities, in my opinion.

 

Some of the stats are cool though. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think a solid defense is an ingredient to what you're referring to. We can't put anyone on their heels when were chasing the entire game because our D lets the opposing offense go 80 yards and score immediately following our TD.

[Wildbunny]

14 minutes ago, jpage520 said:

 

Granted. But four games a year for the foreseeable future will pit our defense against the likes of Dez, Dak, Zeke, Beckham, Cruz, and Eli. And you and I both know the matchups with the former weigh much heavier with the fans and Redskins brass than any of the other games. Even without that, to build a winner, you need to start by building a team that wins your division. We just happen to play in the division that holds some of the premier talent in the league. Which sucks from a standpoint of looking for any easy route to the playoffs, but is great for conditioning to play against the weaker teams in the league who don't have to face guys like that twice a year.

Oh definately agree, we need to improve our middle D by all account.  Now, I'm still not sold on the Cowboys O for next year, they'll have to re sign a bunch of OL, which might be tough.

In that regard we aren't really well constructed. But who thought we would go all the way to XLI this year? And the same applies for all those D in the division that have to face us twice a year as well. I doubt we're still marked as an easy W on the schedule by the beginning of the season.

 

My point is that somehow, we are not built to defend against certain teams, well, not efficiently, that is. It's all about match ups.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

17 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Its not an elite offense, but I understand the definition of elite is a matter of opinion.

 

For me, I'm not at a point where I believe the offense is dominate and puts opposing defenses on their heals. The offense doesn't dictate flow of the game or put extra pressure on opposition's offense to put up more points than their accustom to. Rarely does the offense step on the throat of the teams when opportunities present themselves to do so. They're a good offense, but still haven't shown elite qualities, in my opinion.

 

Some of the stats are cool though. 

 

 

 

 

 

I take issue with the bolded/underlined sentence. In 9 of our 12 games so far, we've scored more points than our opponents average yielding per game. That, by definition, puts pressure on the opponent to score more than they're used to. We won 1 of the other 3 games (Baltimore) too as we were less than 2 points off their average. 

 

I think our offense puts significant pressure on our opponents. I do agree that we aren't great about stepping on teams' throats. But, we also don't have too many opportunities with a lead. I think I saw a stat recently that 9 of the past 10 times we've scored a TD, the defense has given up points on the ensuing drive. Oddly, the one chance we had last game, the offense **** the bed and gave up the sack/fumble. But that's not typical. 

[DC9]

28 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

OG Kirk Cousins Fan ‏@TheCasualHero  2m2 minutes ago

It's remarkable that #Redskins are top 10 in points per drive with RZ issues, and LAST in drives per game but still 2nd in total offense.

 

Someone is ripping off my tweets now?

 

Not even correct numbers there, lol

[wit33]

15 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

Someone is ripping off my tweets now?

 

Not even correct numbers there, lol

 

Wouldnt time of possession factor in this as well? 

 

Where do the Skins rank in time of possession?

 

To me, it would be bad offenses that have more attempts per game. Just going off my individual logic lol, no stats to provide

[Est.1974]

Grudens a keeper. He's turning things around. We need a solid 2017 draft on defence and we need to secure a number of our own impending FA's for continuity on offense.

 

Fine margins at the moment but we're getting better. Love the fact we've only punted 31 times, hate the fact we've had to attempt 34 FG's. 

[mistertim]

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Wouldnt time of possession factor in this as well? 

 

Where do the Skins rank in time of possession?

 

To me, it would be bad offenses that have more attempts per game. Just going off my individual logic lol, no stats to provide

We're way up there in ToP:

 

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-time-of-possession-per-drive/2016/

[wit33]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

We're way up there in ToP:

 

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-time-of-possession-per-drive/2016/

 

Ya, this supports my point. 

[TSO]

3 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

He does not bench players unless a player gets hurt......Kory, Matt Jones, Bruton, Phillips, etc...

 

Except he benched RG3 in 2014. Kirk Cousins, as well. Amerson was a healthy scratch one game because he was an ahole and Jay disciplined him. I'm sure there are other examples I can't remember right now. But the talent, specifically the depth, on the 2014 roster was pathetic... there weren't many options to replace anyone with. I don't know who should've been benched for who when you look at that roster now, lol. 

 

In 2015, he benched Trenton Robinson. Baker won the job over Paea after the first couple games. Both Riley and Robinson were losing snaps to Compton before Robinson lost his job completely. Amerson was cut. Crowder took snaps from Andre Roberts in the slot until he completely took over. Forbath cut for Hopkins. Preston Smith took snaps away from Murphy as the season went on. Kyshoen Jarrett earning more and more reps until practically becoming a full time starter. Dunbar moving up the depth chart over a few players. 

 

This doesn't even get into all the roster changes during the training camp/preseason that occur. So many guys, young ones mostly, winning jobs over the incumbents.

 

And you do realize that, as the roster improves, there are going to be lesser examples of players being benched or losing jobs, right? That's what continuity/stability brings and, for the most part, that's a good thing.  

 

I think it's easy to sit in front of a computer screen and scream "bench player x for player y!", because we're not there everyday for practice. We're not there when they earn a spot over another guy. We're not there to see how other players think about the guy they're playing next to, day in and day out. How the talent evaluators, including the GM, are thinking and how much they're stressing to be patient with someone struggling, or vice versa. We're not there in the film room, seeing how they study. We're not there to see how far along someone is and if they'll be exposed if they get inserted. The fine line coaches have to walk between loyalty and competition so as not to alienate players, mess with their psychological states, or make them feel like they have no chance.   

 

I think the Phillips to Fuller example is a perfect one. Yes, Phillips was stinking it up, so it was assumed that Fuller would be able to simply step in and play better. And when he did, you come on here calling out the coaches for not benching Phillips sooner. But what evidence do you have to prove that Fuller, a rookie coming off major knee surgery, was truly prepared to step in before that? Did you know how much of the defense he had picked up? Did you know if the coaches had to protect him by simplifying the game plan a bit more, and that's what made him look better initially? Did you see how Phillips responded in practice after a poor performance, giving the coaches hope he solved his issue/s? 

 

Fuller is now getting exposed a little bit, per the norm for a rookie. Does that not at all give you some pause to think that maybe the coaches were hesitant to put him in because they knew he likely would struggle, and maybe it just took time for opponents to figure it out?      

[DC9]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Wouldnt time of possession factor in this as well? 

 

Where do the Skins rank in time of possession?

 

To me, it would be bad offenses that have more attempts per game. Just going off my individual logic lol, no stats to provide

 

It could.  Or they could run the hurry up (I think that the 9ers is top 3 in drives per game for instance).  It's a context thing.

 

But being top and bottom of each should tell you something.

 

Especially when our defense is 28th in Points Given Up Per Drive and how we're 32d in 3rd down conversions against.

[Koolblue13]

Our offense is good. If we had more opportunities We'd score more. Yes redone is an issue.

 

Our defense is your drunk friend at karaoke night that won't stop hogging the mic to sing journey songs back to back.

 

We need to be able to stop the opposition, but the ball back in Kirks hands.

 

It's hard to take 60 yard shots to DJax when it might mean you'll be down another 7 points in 8 minutes.

[skins island connection]

 I'm not sure on the %, but we seem to score on our 1st drives of the 2nd halves of games. Not sure either why this is important.

 Part of Gruden's issues is at times he seems to be trying to teach plays in-game.  The fades in red zone that don't work; why keep calling them? Stubbornness?

His Cincy time was more focused on the passing game, wasn't it? Maybe that's why he's not utilizing Kelley much, or maybe he doesn't trust him fully yet. I've ****ed about the bunch formations on the goal line, and IMO rightfully so, because once again they don't work. Its like he's trying to force the issue, but the overall results should tell him they aren't working.

 

I'm leaning more on him being stubborn than anything else. Like getting that damned 10 & 5 at the blackjack tables; keep trying until you do draw a 5 or 6, but what has it cost you?

[wit33]

48 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Our offense is good. If we had more opportunities We'd score more. Yes redone is an issue.

 

Our defense is your drunk friend at karaoke night that won't stop hogging the mic to sing journey songs back to back.

 

We need to be able to stop the opposition, but the ball back in Kirks hands.

 

It's hard to take 60 yard shots to DJax when it might mean you'll be down another 7 points in 8 minutes.

 

The offense is good (not elite), just not quite to the level of carrying the team in most games or dictating the game through their explosiveness.

 

The defense is horrible, but the offense requires them to play average to win. 

 

Point being, rarely can the defense be bad and the offense just dominate the game and pull out the win. 

[bankonhank]

5 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

He does not bench players unless a player gets hurt......Kory, Matt Jones, Bruton, Phillips, etc...

Well the issue is all these guys had people behind them that were young pretty much. Kory had Spencer Long behind him who was still working on his transition to center i believe, Matt Jones had Robert Kelley behind him, a rookie or Thompson who Gruden refuses to give too many touches to. Phillips had Fuller behind him who was a rookie coming off a knee injury and not playing football for a very long time, Bruton had Nacho who was not young or inexperienced at the position but is not that big of an upgrade. Point is all these guys probably needed a few weeks of the regular season to get ready to play in the first place.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

The offense is good (not elite), just not quite to the level of carrying the team in most games or dictating the game through their explosiveness.

 

The defense is horrible, but the offense requires them to play average to win. 

 

Point being, rarely can the defense be bad and the offense just dominate the game and pull out the win. 

Colts wth Manning had an incredible offense, but couldn't get over the hump. 

 

Then they got a defense.

[DC9]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Colts wth Manning had an incredible offense, but couldn't get over the hump. 

 

Then they got a defense.

 

The run defense wasn't great but the pass defense was built to be outstanding cause they were usually holding a lead.

[Koolblue13]

4 hours ago, DC9 said:

 

The run defense wasn't great but the pass defense was built to be outstanding cause they were usually holding a lead.

Was it Bob Sanders? The excellent SS who could never stay healthy. He was pretty key to them winning in the playoffs if I remember correctly.

[wit33]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Colts wth Manning had an incredible offense, but couldn't get over the hump. 

 

Then they got a defense.

 

Skins haven't reached any hump, I'm just talking in season success. Playoff football and winning games there is a whole other monster, especially after wild card round. 

 

You can win a lot of games during the regular season with just an elite offense, the Skins this season still require an average to above average performance from the defense is all I'm saying. Not a bad thing, but it's just my opinion that an elite offense would carry a team more often is all. 

[Koolblue13]

8 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Skins haven't reached any hump, I'm just talking in season success. Playoff football and winning games there is a whole other monster, especially after wild card round. 

 

You can win a lot of games during the regular season with just an elite offense, the Skins this season still require an average to above average performance from the defense is all I'm saying. Not a bad thing, but it's just my opinion that an elite offense would carry a team more often is all. 

More often than an elite defense?

 

I don't agree with that, especially in the playoffs.

 

However balance is obviously key.

 

We can't get the opposing offense off the field. The more we can, the more our offense can score.

[William Barbour]

11 hours ago, DC9 said:

 

Someone is ripping off my tweets now?

 

Not even correct numbers there, lol

Not sure what you mean by this. That's actually my tweet. I got the information from Redskins website.

 

Numbers are accurate. I mean, 30, 31, 32... That's basically last anyway you look at it ??

 

But no.. I didn't steal ant numbers. You just have to follow Redskins on twitter to obtain statistical knowledge like that, but if you want to claim it as your own....So be it. 

 

I mean...I know Kirk Cousins will hit 1500 career pass attempts this season so he'll be eligible for most statistical records career wise. Maybe I'll tweet it and claim it as my own. Even though everyone can see it with a simple click. ???

[wit33]

16 minutes ago, William Barbour said:

Not sure what you mean by this. That's actually my tweet. I got the information from Redskins website.

 

Numbers are accurate. I mean, 30, 31, 32... That's basically last anyway you look at it ??

 

But no.. I didn't steal ant numbers. You just have to follow Redskins on twitter to obtain statistical knowledge like that, but if you want to claim it as your own....So be it. 

 

I mean...I know Kirk Cousins will hit 1500 career pass attempts this season so he'll be eligible for most statistical records career wise. Maybe I'll tweet it and claim it as my own. Even though everyone can see it with a simple click. ???

 

The info proved to not really make sense in context it was being used in. 

34 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

More often than an elite defense?

 

I don't agree with that, especially in the playoffs.

 

However balance is obviously key.

 

We can't get the opposing offense off the field. The more we can, the more our offense can score.

 

Lol, I read my offense post at end and can't make sense of it. An elite defense and offense are comparable in their effectiveness during the season, but not playoffs (defense has more value in most cases). I'm with you on that.

 

The defense is bad, I hold the offense to much higher standard as the talent appears to be there to dominate games, but it hasn't happened much at all. It's not entirely fair to the offense, but this is the reality this season.