Jay Gruden: Buy or Sell

[SWFLSkins]

1 hour ago, jschuck12001 said:

The key to good coaching is the shorts and the gut, before I give credence to your post I need to know if you wear the proper attire.

 

Coach Two tight. 

 

This reminds me of the time the Coach walked in to our locker room wearing these ridiculous Russell Athletic shorts, it was like '82 and he was trying to be all serious, we couldn't help but snicker. Unfortunately I was the one who had to tell him the inside joke.....silence, it's a sound. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, jschuck12001 said:

The key to good coaching is the shorts and the gut, before I give credence to your post I need to know if you wear the proper attire.

 

 

Notice how Coach Gibbs has the tightest shorts? Yeah, that's how you show people who is the boss.

 

[DC9]

50 minutes ago, mistertim said:

It is a straw man as I haven't seen anyone here claim that we should be scoring TDs (we're talking about red zone TDs here, not FGs) every time we go down there. But our TD % relative to how often we get into the red zone is AWFUL. The defense is putrid in most respects...nobody is denying that. And nobody is denying that it needs some serious upgrades in the offseason. However, there is pretty much zero that can be done about it right now as we have, at best, a mediocre coordinator along with a major dearth of defensive talent both up front and in the backfield. What we CAN control is our (potentially) high powered offense.

 

There have been plenty of teams in the past who had crappy defenses and were forced to make up for it with big scoring offenses (the Colts for a very long time for example). Is it an ideal scenario? Not at all, but you play the cards you're dealt and make the most of them. We've lost plenty of games this year by a small margin where we've settled for field goals multiple times in the red zone. If just ONE of those red zone trips per game resulted in a TD instead of a FG we're looking at at least a couple more wins.

 

The defense sucks. The offense is good, but apparently only between the 20s. Like it or not, our offense is going to have to pick up the slack for our lackluster defense. It isn't doing it right now and the main reason is that we are so terrible at scoring TDs in the red zone. You can **** about it until you're blue in the face, but that is just the simple fact of the matter.

 

But how many times we're actually in a position to score 3 points is outstanding.  That's what you and everyone is missing.

 

Until recently, for the SEASON you could count how many times we'd gone 3 and out on two hands.

 

Now, for the last several games you can count how many times we've forced a punt on one hand!

 

Why isn't this prolific offense more prolific?  Miss me with that.

 

Just like you all are saying "I understand the defense sucks, but..." I understand that we could be scoring more in the redzone.  But we're scoring on almost every drive and still losing.

41 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

They had the dagger in both hands in different games and couldn't kill the beast.... We all are just stuck here.....

 

This offense has to play a perfect game or we lose.  It's that simple.  And we've won more than we've lost this year which is what is truly amazing.

 

 

[SWFLSkins]

4 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

/

 

This offense has to play a perfect game or we lose.  It's that simple.  And we've won more than we've lost this year which is what is truly amazing.

 

 

 

I would expect if they are moving the ball like they are, they will eventually figure out how to punch it in more consistently. So your point is a sound one in that regard. 

 

IMO, I don't which side has to win the game, as long as they do. And I think both sides have cost us games this year. 

 

You can check out anytime you like, but you can't ever leave. 

[mistertim]

43 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

But how many times we're actually in a position to score 3 points is outstanding.  That's what you and everyone is missing.

 

Until recently, for the SEASON you could count how many times we'd gone 3 and out on two hands.

 

Now, for the last several games you can count how many times we've forced a punt on one hand!

 

Why isn't this prolific offense more prolific?  Miss me with that.

 

Just like you all are saying "I understand the defense sucks, but..." I understand that we could be scoring more in the redzone.  But we're scoring on almost every drive and still losing.

 

This offense has to play a perfect game or we lose.  It's that simple.  And we've won more than we've lost this year which is what is truly amazing.

 

 

No the offense doesn't have to play a "perfect game", and nobody has suggested it does...so seriously, stop with that noise. If the offense just moved up from "awful" to "mediocre" when it comes to scoring TDs in the red zone it would make a HUGE difference and we would have won at least a couple of the games we have lost. What matters is scoring TDs. FGs should be a last resort when you're in the red zone but to us they're basically our main method of scoring there. Again, we're top 3 in getting to the red zone but not even top 20 in TD % there. That is just plain BAD and you simply can't win games by relying on field goals game in and game out. Top offenses score the points. Moving the ball at will between the 20s looks wonderful on a stat sheet when you're trying to justify it, but it is meaningless when it consistently fails to produce TDs.

 

The defense being ****ty doesn't suddenly make our red zone woes go away. Sometimes teams have to compensate for having ****ty defenses. We're forced into that situation at this point and the offense is simply not doing enough when they get the ball in the red zone to be able to put the game on their backs. Sucks, but that's the truth.

[benskins26]

22 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

 

That's very disrespectful to Kirk lol. 

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm

 

I actually really don't think so. He was on some very bland offenses and he put up close to 4000 yards and 20/8 or so 2 times, and close to that 2 more times. How am I that far off? With the limited sample we have of Kirk, and the limited time Orton was a starter, I'd say it's a very reasonable comparison

[SkinsPassion4Life]

5 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Huh? 

 

He's overseen a team that was 7-25 from 2013-2014 and has us at 15-12-1 from 2015-2016. We are in contention for another playoff berth (though we may fall a little short). I think the guys "grasping at straws" are the ones trying to find reasons not to defend Jay. 

 

Um, I like how you removed his first year and put it into the 7-25 category.     he's 19-24-1.

 

The best thing and the only really good thing he's done is go to Kirk....and that's a big thing...the most important thing a coach can do....and I give him credit.

 

But everything else....mostly subpar...

 

1) Hiring D-Coordinator...fail

 

2) maximizing talent on offense/red zone into points....fail

 

3) playing the best players...fail

 

4) clock management...fail

[DC9]

Sorry... but a team that is top 3 in getting into the red zone and also would move from "awful" to "mediocre"

WHEN - YOU - TAKE - INTO - ACCOUNT - HOW - MANY/FEW - POSSESSIONS - WE - GET - CAUSE - OUR - DEFENSE - DOESN'T - GET -

OFF - THE - FIELD -

Is PRETTY MUCH playing a perfect game.

 

 

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

The defense being ****ty doesn't suddenly make our red zone woes go away. Sometimes teams have to compensate for having ****ty defenses. We're forced into that situation at this point and the offense is simply not doing enough when they get the ball in the red zone to be able to put the game on their backs. Sucks, but that's the truth.

 

Forgot to quote you...

[88Comrade2000]

Unless the team finishes 0-4; Jay isn't going anywhere. We are 2 wins away from having back to back winning seasons; for the first time since 1996,1997.  Also, with the very same mediocre overall record.  That's how pathetic of franchise we have been.  We haven't had; back to back winning seasons in 19 years.  That alone will give Jay his 4th year.  Next year is when Jay really has to show something.

[Hail4Life]

Buy.  I don't know if he is the guy to lead us to a SB but at this point in my fandom I am happy with a coach that can get us into the playoffs...and Jay can do that. If you can make the playoffs then you have a chance.  When is the last time the Redskins had an elite offense?  When is the last time we had a QB damn near leading the league in passing yards?  When was the last time this team averaged 25 points per game?  It's been a long time and I'm enjoying watching a Redskins team that can move the ball and score, not to mention as a fan the confidence in the team that they can beat anybody.

 

This team is on the rise.  We just need a defense - with one we would likely be 11-1 this year.  For the most part, no team has been able to stop our offense, slow it down a little yes, but not stop them.  If only we could stop opposing offenses then we would be set.  This team is very close to being dominant!

[CommandB11]

Barry still here? Sell!!!!!!!!!!

[Playaction2Sanders]

I buy his passing game, not his running game. His defense doesn't have the talent in the back 7 besides Norman.. I buy gruden...

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Definitely buying Gruden. I like his panache and that our offense is top 5.

Our D is subpar. Special teams have improved greatly. This team is way better than when he took over. He's got a lot to due with it, along with Scott and the staff.

 

He's on the cusp of instilling a winning mentality, which is hard to do. 

 

And MOST importantly I think the team believes in him and has fully bought in. I expect us to make the playoffs this year. Let's see this play out before asking this question after back to back loses.

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, DC9 said:

Sorry... but a team that is top 3 in getting into the red zone and also would move from "awful" to "mediocre"

WHEN - YOU - TAKE - INTO - ACCOUNT - HOW - MANY/FEW - POSSESSIONS - WE - GET - CAUSE - OUR - DEFENSE - DOESN'T - GET -

OFF - THE - FIELD -

Is PRETTY MUCH playing a perfect game.

 

 

 

Forgot to quote you...

What are you even talking about? They get into the red zone about the same amount as other top teams in that category. That's the point...they get into the red zone a ton but they also have a horrible TD % in the red zone when they get there. This seriously isn't rocket science. They would move from being awful to being mediocre if they actually punched the ball into the end zone instead of settle for so many field goals.

[dckey]

I don't understand why would you get rid of the coach and start all over with a new offensive system that is currently top 3 in the nfl?  If we were to replace him who would we get and think about the fact that he would probably get another coaching job somewhere else and take his coordinators with him including our oline coach who has been great in changing our oline!!!

[WilberMarshall]

SELL!

 

You would expect not to see the same issues in year 3 that you saw in year 1 and attributed it to first year of learning the position issues.

At times we look like we are unprepared.  We don't do well with situational football (a mark of a well-coached team). More often than not, when presented with two choices the coaching staff chooses the wrong one.  We still haven't learned how to manage the clock and when to call timeouts.

 

He is a heck of a coordinator but a so-so HC.  

[Rattlesnake88]

Buy, I love what he brings to the offense. He NEEDS a bulldog of a DC however. I would die for a  Mike Zimmer type.

[skins island connection]

Gruden has good and bad qualities, so its difficult to say either way.

In a way, this is the talent making him look good as opposed to the defensive side, but he does get lost in the moment at times, having to spend a time out because he hasn't figured out what to do for the next play, especially after a 20+ yd pick-up.

 

If he will stop calling bunch formations at the goal line, and separate himself from Barry, then I'd say 'buy' without a doubt.  But something tells me he is hard-headed and stubborn, and it might take an absolute fall-out between players and the DC for him to consider making a change.

 

The other issues can be worked out or around, but he positively HAS to recognize the window of opportunity; the strength at offense will not last forever, so he has to make a drastic move on the defensive side, or in 3-4 years I think quite a few of the offensive players will sign with other teams, and we will not have ANYTHING to hang our hats on.

[DC9]

3 hours ago, mistertim said:

What are you even talking about? They get into the red zone about the same amount as other top teams in that category. That's the point...they get into the red zone a ton but they also have a horrible TD % in the red zone when they get there. This seriously isn't rocket science. They would move from being awful to being mediocre if they actually punched the ball into the end zone instead of settle for so many field goals.

 

You realize we are 30th in the league in drives per game right?

 

Cause if you don't understand my beef by now I am confident I'm wasting my time trying to educate you.

 

You're looking at a puddle that is a mile wide and an inch deep right now.

[illone]

I am about 50% sold on Jay sticking around with Cousins for the long haul.  Mcvay might get approached for HC job in the next year or two if this offense keeps improving year over year like it has and that will be a huge test for Gruden to replace Sean as he has done a great job in Washington.  I do worry some about Gruden's clock management at times, and his in-game adjustments seem to lack in most games, but I think he is improving as a coach.

 

Tough to get too attached because we have been such a mess for so long, it's like I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.  But, if Barry can get some more talent to work with on defense, perhaps things can get turned around.  I don't think the Skins need a top ten defense to succeed, but at least a middle of the pack D that gets sacks, or turnovers, that would do the trick.  

 

Skins are 2-3 pieces away from being a much improved Defense which will vastly improve the offense and scoring too.  This year they are basically going to have to play a few steps above their actual talent level.  If that happens Jay might get an extension.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, DC9 said:

 

You realize we are 30th in the league in drives per game right?

 

Cause if you don't understand my beef by now I am confident I'm wasting my time trying to educate you.

 

You're looking at a puddle that is a mile wide and an inch deep right now.

Still completely misses the point.

 

Team A: Has approximately 4 scoring attempts per game in the red zone. They score TDs on approximately 65-70% of those attempts.

 

Team B: Has approximately 4 scoring attempts per game in the red zone. They score TDs on approximately 45-50% of those attempts. 

 

Which team has a problem with punching the ball into the end zone for TDs? Which team is going to put up more points and hence give their team a better chance to win (especially if they also don't have a good defense)? It's so odd to me that you are utterly refusing to see the red zone problem as an actual problem. You keep screaming about the defense, but guess what? EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU. However, the red zone issues are very real too and teams that have crappy defenses have to lean on their offenses to put lots of points on the board and we're leaving a lot of points on the board by settling for so many field goals when in the red zone. It's the same with teams with good defenses and crappy offenses; they have to lean on their defense.

 

To turn it around, If a defense has some really great statistics that show, on paper at least, that they're really tough...but for whatever reason they have this one thorn in their side: game in and game out they give up huge deep passes for TDs, would you say that's a problem? 

[DC9]

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

Still completely misses the point.

 

Team A: Has approximately 4 scoring attempts per game in the red zone. They score TDs on approximately 65-70% of those attempts.

 

Team B: Has approximately 4 scoring attempts per game in the red zone. They score TDs on approximately 45-50% of those attempts. 

 

 

If it's a snake, it's biting you.

 

Further conversation on this topic is fruitless.  You're not getting it.

[SWFLSkins]

9 hours ago, WilberMarshall said:

SELL!

 

You would expect not to see the same issues in year 3 that you saw in year 1 and attributed it to first year of learning the position issues.

At times we look like we are unprepared.  We don't do well with situational football (a mark of a well-coached team). More often than not, when presented with two choices the coaching staff chooses the wrong one.  We still haven't learned how to manage the clock and when to call timeouts.

 

He is a heck of a coordinator but a so-so HC.  

Why I remain in the HOLD mode..... plus.............

 

Brian Mitchell ‏@BMitchLiveCSN  16h16 hours agoRockville, MD

The quote today says that, 'Redskins want Rob Kelley more involved'. My question, who is the reason he hasn't been? #Redskins #HTTR

[SWFLSkins]

45 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

If it's a snake, it's biting you.

 

Further conversation on this topic is fruitless.  You're not getting it.

 

Everyone has an opinion on it, the question of the thread was Buy or Sell..... Questioning the whys is the discussion... Not scoring in the RZ consistently is a problem IMO Adam,,, it will cost you games, games in a league that are hyper valued.... Games that matter for playoffs or playoff positioning. You can't lose winnable games, no matter who's fault it is, it falls on the HC shoulders. You could have a perfect O, wait, no you can't, You could have a perfect D, oh, wait, no you can't. 

 

I don't think either the O or the D are completely responsible for winning or losing games, but they both have done there parts this year in losing winnable games. The D sucks, the O is like dancing with your Hot cousin, impressive from afar, but accomplishes nothing. 

[DC9]

2 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

Everyone has an opinion on it, the question of the thread was Buy or Sell..... Questioning the whys is the discussion... Not scoring in the RZ consistently is a problem IMO Adam,,, it will cost you games, games in a league that are hyper valued.... Games that matter for playoffs or playoff positioning. You can't lose winnable games, no matter who's fault it is, it falls on the HC shoulders. You could have a perfect O, wait, no you can't, You could have a perfect D, oh, wait, no you can't. 

 

I don't think either the O or the D are completely responsible for winning or losing games, but they both have done there parts this year in losing winnable games. The D sucks, the O is like dancing with your Hot cousin, impressive from afar, but accomplishes nothing. 

 

It is a problem.  I'm not saying it isn't.

 

Here is my last attempt...

 

The Washington Redskins are 4th in the NFL in points per drive.  We are 30th in the NFL in drives per game.  Which means we score on almost every drive.

 

If we had the ball MORE.  We would score MORE. 

 

It is unrealistic to expect a touchdown on every. stinkin. drive...

 

Yes... we could do better in the red zone.  But we could also do more with the ball if we saw it more.