Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[Predicto]

1 hour ago, DM72 said:

One thing I'm not liking is this compromise of kneeling before the anthem is played. N.O. is the next team that's taking Dallas' lead by kneeling before the anthem. As far as I'm concerned, that defeats the purpose.

 

Voltaire once said: "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."   The fact that historically risk-adverse organizations like NFL teams are doing anything at all is a very good thing.   

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

I feel like the military angle is something that has been brought in by the Fox News folks to make sure that folks who raise issues about racial inequality are seen as anti-patriotic and anti-military when they do so.  

 

Its the exact same concept behind Blue Lives Matter. As if Black lives Matter is against all cops. Not the case at all but thats how it was sold and the people ate it up. Its what makes you upset the most because all you are trying to do is bring up legitimate issues that anyone should be able to agree on and its twisted until you are the bad guy are even wanting to talk about it. Thats what Trump did with his comments and unfortunately I think its too far gone to counter.

[Dan T.]

Here's a yuck-a-putz Trump supporter taking a stand. 

 

 

Good riddance.

[Llevron]

I will never understand hard working Americans burning their money because they dont agree with someone but complain that the last guy messed up the economy so bad.....

[PleaseBlitz]

17 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

Genuine question.  When did the start of a football game become our national time for honoring our vets and active military?   I've been going to football games for half a century, and it's not how I remember it.

 

I feel like the military angle is something that has been brought in by the Fox News folks to make sure that folks who raise issues about racial inequality are seen as anti-patriotic and anti-military when they do so.  

 

2009.

 

http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/nfl-teams-being-field-anthem-relatively-new-practice

Edited September 29, 2017 by PleaseBlitz

[Popeman38]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I'm all for letting anybody do whatever they want during the anthem.  I'm all about that sweet freedom!

 

#myagenda

As long as it's quiet and done in a respectful manner. Like kneeling. Or sitting. Or raising a fist. Or meditating. Or praying. Or planking! Just don't interrupt the actual playing/singing of the anthem.

[Jumbo]

Backlash of all sorts, from a variety of directions, is hardly atypical in major social shifts, which by definition involve religion and politics, and certainly involve government policies, laws, and baseline cultural attitudes.

 

Major social changes re: labor (inc. child) laws, emancipation, suffrage, exploitation of Chinese workers for the railroads, treatment of lgbtq and marriage equality, interracial marriage,  etc etc---all brought their share of condemnations for "improperly" rocking the boat with many of their protests, as well as just outright violent opposition to changing the standard. They didn't get from there to here without upsetting a lot of people with powerfully different beliefs and upsetting some social rules and even some laws of the day, nor would it have been possible for them to gain their advances otherwise.

 

Very much fighting the greater odds and the established order of the day, and suffering in the process, to gain a great victory (imv) for the society overall.

 

Not implying there's no point in trying to argue for drawing lines of conduct all along the way, just that there  are no Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval awards available from the resistant status-quo side of the culture to those advocating for such social shift.

 

None of the aforementioned changes occurred with all the folks in opposition saying "oh, you guys are protesting and fighting for your cause in such a fine way., carry on, nice work." 

 

It's kind of irrational to expect such changes to occur in an orderly, polite, broadly agreeable and friendly atmosphere where no feathers get ruffled and no norms of one large group or another aren't seriously challenged.

 

 As for temperament and rationality, observe how such a "close" demographic as Redskins fan argue, simply over their qb. 

 

 

 

 

[steve09ru]

27 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

Genuine question.  When did the start of a football game become our national time for honoring our vets and active military?   I've been going to football games for half a century, and it's not how I remember it.

 

I feel like the military angle is something that has been brought in by the Fox News folks to make sure that folks who raise issues about racial inequality are seen as anti-patriotic and anti-military when they do so.  

Misread

 

But on the second part, it's not just the right - I've seen it across the board.

Edited September 29, 2017 by steve09ru

[Predicto]

13 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

chevy van song

 

 

 

More like this:

 

 

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I haven't scanned 72 pages of replies to this topic but has anyone mentioned that the Raiders allowed Carr to get sacked because he refused to take a knee during the anthem?  Any truth to that?  

[Predicto]

7 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

Misread

 

But on the second part, it's not just the right - I've seen it across the board.

 

 

I think that the people who manipulate the right injected it into the argument.  Sadly, people across the board are falling for it.

 

Nobody is better at the proactive framing/spinning/deflecting/generating outrage to frame the public discourse game than the right wing media.  The entire left is pathetically disorganized, reactive, and self-defeating at that game.  

 

  

[Llevron]

2 minutes ago, Thirtyfive2seven said:

I haven't scanned 72 pages of replies to this topic but has anyone mentioned that the Raiders allowed Carr to get sacked because he refused to take a knee during the anthem?  Any truth to that?  

 

If that was the case I would surprised if they were still employed and I would fire their asses personally. This is business bro and he doesnt have to agree with you. I have not heard it and I dont believe it but I dont doubt that many people will choose to cause they need a villain. 

[Thirtyfive2seven]

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

If that was the case I would surprised if they were still employed and I would fire their asses personally. This is business bro and he doesnt have to agree with you. I have not heard it and I dont believe it but I dont doubt that many people will choose to cause they need a villain. 

I doubt it as well but I read it somewhere so wanted to see if anyone else has heard about it or if there were any truth to it.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

29 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

As long as it's quiet and done in a respectful manner. Like kneeling. Or sitting. Or raising a fist. Or meditating. Or praying. Or planking! Just don't interrupt the actual playing/singing of the anthem.

 

I admit to being a stickler regarding the actual musical performance.  If you get too showy or melismatic with it, I will rain righteous digital condemnation down upon you until the end of time.  Perhaps even from beyond the grave...

[Llevron]

5 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

I admit to being a stickler regarding the actual musical performance.  If you get too showy or melismatic with it, I will rain righteous digital condemnation down upon you until the end of time.  Perhaps even from beyond the grave...

 

This should keep you busy. 

 

All of these people should be put in jail by today's standards lmao

 

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Dude, I can't watch that.  You need to delete that mess.

[grego]

2 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

Yes. First, you and everyone best make sure you follow moderator directives. I just recently posted explicitly and at length in here on staying closer to the specific  topic and avoid tangents. You and a couple others here participated in that engagement. Yet here you and a couple others are already willing to extend a tangent on the rooney rule.

 

Guess what position that puts each of  you in under rule 18.

 

Now semper fi wasn't engaged here when i made my post and i allow may not have seen it, and it's not introducing a tangent (which is unavoidable in any deep discussion on a major issue)  but it's the continued extension of it to an OT distraction that is as always clearly noted, the issue.

 

Second, regarding all those behaviors you listed, grego, that's fine, but I'd strongly urge people to make sure they simply read, comprehend, and follow the site rules as they exist , as we have already taken a great deal of time to write out in detail.  People who don't do this make themselves subject to loss of posting privileges and even membership no matter who they are.

 

Once again, no penalties are being applied at this point.  

 

This is a serious discussion taking place here and around the country and overall has been continuing intelligently and appropriately. My take is it's best served by having as much/diverse participation as possible, excepting hateful/idiot/trolling type stuff, of course.. Everyone engaged should strive to help keep the focus on topic best they can, instruct new joiners to do the same, or start a tangential topic thread in proper manner. Thanks.

 

 this was one of those moments where youre driving down the road, get lost in a deep thought, and the next thing you know, youre in another town, miles away. i can definitely see how its not related to the anthem topic, and i'm not sure it ever hit me that it was in the anthem thread, as we were talking about one thing and then there we were, all in rooney land. definitely not an intentional diversion, though that is no excuse. i'll try to pay attention to where i am better. promise!

 

didnt mean to diss the site rules. i think a lot of leeway regarding conversation is a good thing too. lately, when i read posts and reactions on the board, it gets a bit depressing seeing everyone talking past one another. sometimes its as if we arent interesting in discussing the issue and finding some common, unifying ground as much as we are interested in beating each other over the head. its also frustrating because we keep saying 'were not talking about the issue' meaning, police brutality, reform, etc, as we keep posting about the kneeling of the anthem and what we think about it. i'm thinking 'soooo....are we going to talk about it?'. and i thought the only way to really have a chance of any meaningful discussion, maybe as an experiment (or, brilliant idea, which is what i was really thinking)

would be to try to have a thread with some specific goals and guidelines so we could make some progress on the issue. 

 

it probably wouldnt have gone well, admittedly. 

 

anyway, thanks for the heads up.

Edited September 29, 2017 by grego

[The Sisko]

1 hour ago, steve09ru said:

 

to each their own.  It seems like now that if people want to join in with and show unity and make a statement it can only now be done during the national anthem and no other time is appropriate??  It may also be that the ones you didn't see kneeling before understood those problems but did not want to use the national anthem as their platform to make a statement.

 

I'm not sure why it's a bad thing, the more you can have join in, wouldn't that make the biggest statement?  As you can see throughout the whole beginning of this thread, many said they did not agree with it and wouldn't personally do it during the anthem but understood why he did.

 

Why is it just showing unity as the NFL?  If they can push that unity to other avenues, isn't that how it starts?  Regardless of how they do it, people are either going to or are not.  You're going to have a lot less people hated and pissed off if you choose the other which will limit even further dividing.  And, if anything, I think people are already talking and taking a first step (IE BLM and Pro-Trump Rally).  Hope it does but we'll see if it continues

2

I get where you're coming from. However, the whole point of it and what makes it a protest is doing it during the national anthem. The idea is that you can't stand for something being played to represent freedoms that people that look like you don't enjoy to the degree that others do. So it loses much if not all of its meaning when done beforehand. 

 

1 hour ago, Predicto said:

That's probably because Benning has personally experienced far more racism in his life than you or I have, or ever could have.  That's why listening to him is so important.  For us white guys, racism is an academic concept, one that we can all talk about like it was the history of Sri Lanka or the invention of the printing press.  Benning actually has to live with it, every day, and his perspective is about it is something that we white guys need to listen to truly understand the issue in a real way, not an abstract way.  

 

And that includes his anger, and his seeing race issue impacting subjects where we white guys don't naturally see it (and many of us don't want to see it even if it is there). 

 

Benning's posts are the furthest thing from trolling that there can be.  They are expressions of an uncomfortable reality where you and I are lucky enough not to have to live, but we need to stop closing our eyes to.  

 

The way I see the big picture of the national dialog on this issue is that one person is on the ground with a cop's foot on his neck. He reaches over and taps his neighbor for help and the neighbor responds that he's breathing fine, what's the problem? Maybe if you wouldn't put your neck under his foot all the time...

 

16 hours ago, zoony said:

 

How do you reconcile your sainted view of Kaepernick with his Cop Piggy socks?  Respectful.  Thats just goddamn outstanding stuff.

1

Anybody know where I can get a pair of those? Heck, make that a box of them. Xmas is coming up.

[Predicto]

51 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

 As for temperament and rationality, observe how such a "close" demographic as Redskins fan argue, simply over their qb. 

 

 

Much less whether or not the team name is kind of outdated and offensive   

 

*hides*

[Momma There Goes That Man]

2 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact

 

I'd say that Affirmative Action programs provide a host of benefits and opportunities to numerous segments of our population.  And that's clearly the "agenda".  And my agenda as well.

 

Yeah...my brother a massive Trump supporter hates Affirmative Action and believes it discriminates against whites. He says he has been in multiple job interviews where the hiring manager told him he was the more qualified candidate but their hands were tied and they had to meet the affirmative action quotas. 

 

I imagine there a millions of white people that feel that same "discrimination" and have similar made up stories in their heads

[Predicto]

40 minutes ago, Thirtyfive2seven said:

I haven't scanned 72 pages of replies to this topic but has anyone mentioned that the Raiders allowed Carr to get sacked because he refused to take a knee during the anthem?  Any truth to that?  

 

As far as I know, no one out here in the Bay Area is even suggesting that happened.   

 

Apparently, the only people saying that are the conspiracy liars at Alex Jones's infowars.  They posted a "story" saying that the black players threw the game to get back at Carr.   Trumpbots have picked it up and started to spread it on social media, for obvious reasons.  

[The Sisko]

Posted under: 

 

SC Restaurant: We’re Banning NFL Games Until Players Stand During Anthem, but Serving Trash Crab Legs Is OK

Looks like another bum is uninviting people from a place no one was going to anyway.

This particular idiot is David McCraw, owner of the Palmetto Restaurant & Ale House in Greenville, S.C. According to the Associated Press, McCraw is banning NFL games from being played at his sports bar until all players stand for the national anthem.

 

Maybe the Palmetto Restaurant will now be known for something other than the apparent house specialty: brown crab legs and—I think that’s supposed to be corn...

 

[Predicto]

10 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

 

The way I see the big picture of the national dialog on this issue is that one person is on the ground with a cop's foot on his neck. He reaches over and taps his neighbor for help and the neighbor responds that he's breathing fine, what's the problem? Maybe if you wouldn't put your neck under his foot all the time...

 

 

And then the neighbor says: if you really want to complain about this, tapping me for help is the not the appropriate way to do it.  It is disrespectful to me and to the nation and to those who have died for our freedoms.  How dare you?  The only way to bring attention to this subject is after you are dead, you can put in your obituary (which I won't bother to read).  

25 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

This should keep you busy. 

 

All of these people should be put in jail by today's standards lmao

 

 

Whoh, what the hell happened there?  Christina Aguilera actually is an incredibly talented singer.  

[Jumbo]

@grego just to be clear, i think anytime you want to start a topic and suggest some additional  specific conduct for that thread (or any thread), i think that's fine and i'd do my best (time-wise) to support the effort. I think that the level of attempt I see most making here to understand opposing thoughts and discuss this intelligently is going pretty well for the venue and that you tend to contribute positively to that effort (this separate from any degree we agree/disagree on anything).

[Predicto]

11 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Yeah...my brother a massive Trump supporter hates Affirmative Action and believes it discriminates against whites. He says he has been in multiple job interviews where the hiring manager told him he was the more qualified candidate but their hands were tied and they had to meet the affirmative action quotas. 

 

I imagine there a millions of white people that feel that same "discrimination" and have similar made up stories in their heads

 

I suspect that sometimes the hiring manager is a Trumpster too, and actually says something like that to make a rejected applicant feel better. 

 

But mostly no - that is a classic **** that never happened story.