Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[TheGreatBuzz]

9 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Pig socks hurt the cause but im sure calling all protesting NFL players sons of ****es was very helpful right? 

 

Right. I aint gonna argue with yall all day, but thats petty as ****. 

Some people struggle to understand that one can be against the protest AND against what trump did.

Edited September 28, 2017 by TheGreatBuzz

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

it's hilarious that russian internet trolls will forever be on the list of responsible parties for social issues

 

our country is full of stupid people

 

Russia still small change compared to the NRA.  Agree with your second point.

[grego]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

Thats such a petty reason to stop listening to someone to be honest. I mean he didn't even say anything about the shirt. But I also know that you see the world differently than me due to your experiences so I cant really say how you should feel. But if someone was doing something I disagreed with I think the last thing I would be worried about was their T shirt of choice that day. If the world ran like that there would be zero hope of understanding between BLM and any Confederate flag waving groups. 

 

 

the t shirt should be put in context. what you call petty, refugees from cuba might call horrifyingly offensive. 

 

check out the exchange between keap and a cuban reporter- 

 

Can you understand why some people in South Florida were concerned about wearing a shirt of Fidel Castro? A dictator who oppressed people. Can you understand the concern?

 

“I can understand the concern, but for me what I said was that was a historic moment for Malcolm. I’m not going to cut out pieces of Malcolm’s life. In 1960 when they met in Harlem, that was a historic moment. That’s something that I will always be true to what Malcolm was, what he represented because I’m not going to cut out history.”

 

Did you find it ironic, any thoughts that just after this controversy happened with you getting in this discussion about [Fidel] Castro with a reporter that you end up in Miami when Fidel Castro passes away?

“Very unique circumstances. It’s hard to really say that it was a coincidence or whatever it might be. Once again, it’s very unique circumstances.”

 

Finally, is there anything you’d like to clarify about the [Fidel] Castro situation? He passed away, right now do you want to clarify your thoughts on that?

“I feel like I did clarify them. I believe in the investment in education. I believe in the free universal healthcare, which we don’t have here, and I also believe in the positive thing he did in helping end apartheid in South Africa.

 

How much do you worry about with the [Fidel] Castro situation and also not voting, people losing track of the message you were trying to put forth when this all began?

“Well, I don’t worry about people losing track of what the message is. I’ve been true to the message. I’m against systematic oppression. Voting is a part of that system, and I’ve talked at length about why I believe that.”

 

 

as far as keap and BLM, heres an article from huffington post about BLMs statement following castros death-

 

Upon hearing of the passing of Fidel Castro, Cuba’s dictator-emeritus, leftist politicians and celebrities wasted no time taking to social media to sing their sweet elegies for the Western Hemisphere’s most notorious tyrant.

Yet these tribute tweets, brimming with unwarranted admiration, soon encountered fierce resistance. There were those who quite sensibly pointed out Castro’s litany of human rights abuses. To speak approvingly of Castro, to eulogize him through euphemism, is to sanitize the legacy of a man who, in addition to committing egregious human rights violations, also tanked one of Latin America’s most historically prosperous economies...

 

Castro:

is responsible for the murders of anywhere between 10,000–100,000 men, women, and children (some on live television)

arrested and tortured thousands of political prisoners in jails and labor camps

limited his people’s freedoms of expression, association, assembly, movement, the press, and due process

wrecked one of the strongest economies in all of Latin America

precipitated food shortages due to poor regulation

trained, funded, and supported countless terror groups across the globe

triggered a mass exodus that has continued well into the 21st century

.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cuban-lives-matter-how-blms-embrace-of-castro-lets_us_58408687e4b0cf3f6455880f

 

heres the statement itself- 

Lessons from Fidel: Black Lives Matter and the Transition of El Comandante

We are feeling many things as we awaken to a world without Fidel Castro. There is an overwhelming sense of loss, complicated by fear and anxiety. Although no leader is without their flaws, we must push back against the rhetoric of the right and come to the defense of El Comandante. And there are lessons that we must revisit and heed as we pick up the mantle in changing our world, as we aspire to build a world rooted in a vision of freedom and the peace that only comes with justice. It is the lessons that we take from Fidel.

From Fidel, we know that revolution is sparked by an idea, by radical imaginings, which sometimes take root first among just a few dozen people coming together in the mountains. It can be a tattered group of meager resources, like in Sierra Maestro in 1956 or St. Elmo Village in 2013.

Revolution is continuous and is won first in the hearts and minds of the people and is continually shaped and reshaped by the collective. No single revolutionary ever wins or even begins the revolution. The revolution begins only when the whole is fully bought in and committed to it. And it is never over.

Revolution transcends borders; the freedom of oppressed people and people of color is all bound up together wherever we are. In Cuba, South Africa, Palestine, Angola, Tanzania, Mozambique, Grenada, Venezuela, Haiti, African America, and North Dakota. We must not only root for each other but invest in each other’s struggles, lending our voices, bodies, and resources to liberation efforts which may seem distant from the immediacy of our daily existence.

Revolution is rooted in the recognition that there are certain fundamentals to which every being has a right, just by virtue of one’s birth: healthy food, clean water, decent housing, safe communities, quality healthcare, mental health services, free and quality education, community spaces, art, democratic engagement, regular vacations, sports, and places for spiritual expression are not questions of resources, but questions of political will and they are requirements of any humane society.

Revolution requires that the determination to create and preserve these things for our people takes precedent over individual drives for power, recognition, and enrichment.

A final lesson is that to be a revolutionary, you must strive to live in integrity. As a Black network committed to transformation, we are particularly grateful to Fidel for holding Mama Assata Shakur, who continues to inspire us. We are thankful that he provided a home for Brother Michael Finney Ralph Goodwin, and Charles Hill, asylum to Brother Huey P. Newton, and sanctuary for so many other Black revolutionaries who were being persecuted by the American government during the Black Power era. We are indebted to Fidel for sending resources to Haiti following the 2010 earthquake and attempting to support Black people in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina when our government left us to die on rooftops and in floodwaters. We are thankful that he provided a space where the traditional spiritual work of African people could flourish, regardless of his belief system.

With Fidel’s passing there is one more lesson that stands paramount: when we are rooted in collective vision when we bind ourselves together around quests for infinite freedom of the body and the soul, we will be victorious. As Fidel ascends to the realm of the ancestors, we summon his guidance, strength, and power as we recommit ourselves to the struggle for universal freedom. Fidel Vive!

 

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by grego

[Llevron]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

Some people struggle to inderstand that one can be against the protest AND against what trump did.

 

I dont struggle to understand that at all. I do struggle to understand why socks and a T shirt are so upsetting to a grown man but he can agree that these sons of ****es should be fired. 

 

Obviously im not talking about you directly. I can at least understand your objection to the protest, even though I disagree with it. I just think using the T shirt and socks as an excuse to be upset is dumb. Like, come on its clothing. On a guy you dont even like. On a team you dont even watch. Come on. 

3 minutes ago, grego said:

 

the t shirt should be put in context. what you call petty, refugees from cuba might call horrifyingly offensive. 

 

Dude we can argue all day about Castro and the things he did wrong and right. 

 

 

But this is about police brutality not a T shirt. The T shirt doesn't need context ITS A TEE SHIRT. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

When you're such a "history buff" you can shoehorn the Barbary Pirates into an anthem discussion.  But your knowledge on Cuba apparently only goes back to 1960.

[visionary]

 

 

 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

13 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I dont struggle to understand that at all. I do struggle to understand why socks and a T shirt are so upsetting to a grown man but he can agree that these sons of ****es should be fired. 

 

But this is about police brutality not a T shirt. The T shirt doesn't need context ITS A TEE SHIRT. 

What if it was Tom Brady wearing a KKK shirt? How about people being physically attacked for wearing a MAGA Hat?

 

Seems an odd way of publicizing an opinion by ticking off 60+% of fans. Kinda like taking a dump on your neighbor's front porch and then asking to borrow his lawnmower.

[Llevron]

@TheGreatBuzz @grego 

 

Yall even know what the pictures on that shirt symbolized. I looked it up. This whole time I thought he was wearing a "Fidel Castro shirt" and idolizing the man. He was wearing a shirt that had pictures of the meeting between Fidel Castro meeting with Malcolm X. Did yall even know that? I didn't until just now. Im reading the history of the pictures and the meeting and why he might have worn it now. 

 

But saying he had on a "Fidel Castro shirt" is an over generalization that I have to assume was meant to piss people off. Fidel Castro was on the shirt yes. But its was no I <3 Fidel ****. 

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2016/08/the_history_behind_colin_kaepernick_s_malcolm_x_meets_fidel_castro_t_shirt.html

 

1 minute ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

What if it was Tom Brady wearing a KKK shirt? How about people being physically attacked for wearing a MAGA Hat?

 

Seems an odd way of publicizing an opinion by ticking off 60+% of fans. Kinda like taking a dump on your neighbor's front porch and then asking to borrow his lawnmower.

 

See above. Its not the same thing at all. 

[SemperFi Skins]

32 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I dont struggle to understand that at all. I do struggle to understand why socks and a T shirt are so upsetting to a grown man but he can agree that these sons of ****es should be fired. 

 

Obviously im not talking about you directly. I can at least understand your objection to the protest, even though I disagree with it. I just think using the T shirt and socks as an excuse to be upset is dumb. Like, come on its clothing. On a guy you dont even like. On a team you dont even watch. Come on. 

 

Dude we can argue all day about Castro and the things he did wrong and right. 

 

 

But this is about police brutality not a T shirt. The T shirt doesn't need context ITS A TEE SHIRT. 

 

Promoting 'the cause' against police brutality and wearing those socks isn't just a little thing.... but then again, you also thought a shirt with FIdel Castro was a little thing when he basically killed thousands of men, women, and children... That is hypocrisy at it's best!

 

So you say 'ITS JUST A TEE SHIRT".... well, it happens to be a t-shirt that speaks to the exact opposite of what he's supposedly fighting for.

Edited September 28, 2017 by SemperFi Skins

[grego]

Llevron, what of a player showed up to a press conference with a t-shirt portraying bin laden or Hitler in a positive light? 

 

That's how Cuban refugees feel about Castro. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

We have now entered the "what about that t-shirt" phase of obfuscation.

 

Beware the gallop, @Llevron.

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

[Dan T.]

The worst part of this whole sad episode is the fact that the President of the United States inflamed the Nation's racial divide by taking an isolated protest, pouring gasoline on it, and then doing nothing to tamp it down.  The man is truly a menace to the well-being of the United States.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Dan T.

[Llevron]

Was it showing Castro in a positive light or showing Malcomb X and Castro meeting? 

 

4 minutes ago, grego said:

Llevron, what of a player showed up to a press conference with a t-shirt portraying bin laden or Hitler in a positive light? 

 

That's how Cuban refugees feel about Castro. 

 

This is the shirt we are crying about. Why are y'all making this the biggest deal here? What about this shirt is even worth a second thought from you and why has everyone until now ignored the fact Malcomb X was on it? Couldn't it just as easily be described as a Malcomb X shirt with Castro on it??

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

1 minute ago, Dan T. said:

The worst part of this whole sad episode is the fact that the President of the United States inflamed the Nation's racial divide by taking an isolated protest, pouring gasoline on it, and then doing nothing to tamp it down.  The man is truly a menace to the well-being of the United States.

 

But Trump didn't do it because he's a racist, he did because he loves the military so much!

 

So much that he dodged the draft 5 times.

[redskinss]

It's staggering to me how trumps history with the NFL continues to be mysteriously overlooked in all of this. 

It's like if Hillary had won the election and in her first year started attacking Monica lewinski. 

Nothing to see here just a coincidence. 

Trump gets a free pass on so many things that would burn anybody else's house to the ground that they're impossible to keep up with. 

[Dan T.]

8 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

But Trump didn't do it because he's a racist, he did because he loves the military so much!

 

So much that he dodged the draft 5 times.

 

Well, in his defense, sore feet are a ****.   [Eye roll]

Edited September 28, 2017 by Dan T.

[TradeTheBeal!]

3 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

 

Well, in his defense, sore feet are a ****.

 

A lifetime spent stomping on the little people can definitely have a negative effect on your arch support.

[Jumbo]

Questioning forms of hypocrisy ck may have within his beliefs and choices, and then as applied to his protesting of police brutality of people of color specifically, could be done in the context of how all of us as posters display our own hypocrisy in these conversations (which we "all" do, and many here do it "all" the time).

 

But it's still a worthwhile enough process when used to inform and expand discussion on the topic's actual foundation---in this case institutional prejudice and oppression in law enforcement driven or greatly influenced by race. If it is used primarily or solely to 'attack the messenger' or push a worldview agenda while not directly addressing the specific message..well we know that's bs for logical/rational argument, but it happens a lot anyway.

 

Credibility of the speaker is a real thing. It's fair to raise. It's a disingenuous and intellectually crippled tangent when presented with any suggestion the specific hypocrisy---if proven to be validly assigned--- serves as some automatic counter or definitive weakening/rejection of the original argument/claim being made.

But is makes for great distraction and dilution of the argument via side-arguemtns that "take up oxygen" as a tactic, when done with deliberation (something more common with the pros then the folks here--but some here do that, too, of course) or at least serves to move the topic to the different point the distractor wants to argue for their various reasons.

 

 

I think it's fine to claim hypocrisy and present the challenge in any case and argue if it exists. But when you extend that tangent, you're doing the discourse a disservice imo unless hypocrisy is the main topic. And every now and then note the comfy home it has in your own head as you castigate others for it. When we talk about liars and hypocrites, we aren't just tlaking about those "others" who are saying/doing things we really don't like, we are also talking about ourselves (ooooo so jack handy).

 

But we do get to genuinely compete and argue over who does it the most/least and that matters! 

 

 

[visionary]

 

[The Brian Mitchell Truth]

13 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

But Trump didn't do it because he's a racist, he did because he loves the military so much!

 

So much that he dodged the draft 5 times.

 

 

Isn't that something.  Amongst all the other ****ed up things about the president, he is a coward too!!!  

[grego]

11 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Was it showing Castro in a positive light or showing Malcomb X and Castro meeting? 

 

 

This is the shirt we are crying about. Why are y'all making this the biggest deal here? What about this shirt is even worth a second thought from you and why has everyone until now ignored the fact Malcomb X was on it? Couldn't it just as easily be described as a Malcomb X shirt with Castro on it??

 

 

 

 

heres why- 

-hes in miami

-its hours after castros death

-keap is synonymous with BLM who is unapologetic in their support and praise of castro

-there are about a million t shirts featuring malcolm x that he could have worn. google 'malcolm x t shirt'. 

-when pushed, he offers praise of cubas literacy rate (which is information reported by....cuba)

 

these are coincidences?

[Dan T.]

2 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

I am so torn on this right now. We all have to make choices. I am completely FOR the RIGHT of the players to kneel or do whatever they want as a sign of protest during the anthem. But I also have the RIGHT not to contribute either financially or emotionally to a bunch of spoiled multi millionaires who want to use something sacred to me as a political pawn. 

 

So it is with a heavy heart that I will be stepping away from Extremeskins, the NFL and my beloved Redskins for a while.

 

I wish all of my Extremeskins family well. And I will be back when/If the protesting during the anthem stops. For me it really comes down to doing something instead of talking about it. And like I said we all have our own choices to make.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Chris

 

 

[grego]

2 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

watson

 

 

saw that. it was awesome. unbelievable gesture, especially for a guy on his comparatively low salary.

[Jumbo]

and now i am going to suggest that if someone wants to start a castro-related  thread they do it and move on from castro stuff in this thread

 

it's been more than sufficiently indulged

 

 

thanks for posting that @Dan T.  saw that this a.m. and it was awesome.

[grego]

8 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

Questioning forms of hypocrisy ck may have within his beliefs and choices, and then as applied to his protesting of police brutality of people of color specifically, could be done in the context of how all of us as posters display our own hypocrisy in these conversations (which we "all" do, and many here do it "all" the time).

 

But it's still a worthwhile enough process when used to inform and expand discussion on the topic's actual foundation---in this case institutional prejudice and oppression in law enforcement driven or greatly influenced by race. If it is used primarily or solely to 'attack the messenger' or push a worldview agenda while not directly addressing the specific message..well we know that's bs for logical/rational argument, but it happens a lot anyway.

 

Credibility of the speaker is a real thing. It's fair to raise. It's a disingenuous and intellectually crippled tangent when presented with any suggestion the specific hypocrisy---if proven to be validly assigned--- serves as some automatic counter or definitive weakening/rejection of the original argument/claim being made.

But is makes for great distraction 
 

 

 

i would agree if i granted that kaeps kneeling was 'just' about the issue of police brutality rather than a more grand political statement. as it relates to keaps protest, i think its important to try to understand why people have a problem with it as well as why people dont have a problem with it. 

 

but i get that we've just about exhausted the castro bashing. its all out there, and we can move along. 

 

and move along, i will..