Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, SemperFi Skins said:

Ending these labels in all industries would do wonders, IMO.... I forgot who said it at an awards show last week but it was a female African-American Director who said she doesn't want to be known as the "First Black Woman to Win such and such Award"..... She said that just added to the fire.... we should be past that. How do we get past that? Labels create separation.

I have a strong feeling you misunderstood that point. 

[Llevron]

1. Remove Roney Rule

2. ???????

3. Equality for all Americans. 

 

 

Yea I can see how that works. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Quote

For federal contractors and subcontractors, affirmative action must be taken by covered employers to recruit and advance qualified minorities, women, persons with disabilities, and covered veterans. Affirmative actions include training programs, outreach efforts, and other positive steps. These procedures should be incorporated into the companys written personnel policies. Employers with written affirmative action programs must implement them, keep them on file and update them annually.

 

https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact

 

I'd say that Affirmative Action programs provide a host of benefits and opportunities to numerous segments of our population.  And that's clearly the "agenda".  And my agenda as well.

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

43 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

Equality.. best man/woman for the job.

 

but it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't fit your agenda.

The problem here is that the people feel like they need to be heard about A and your response is, let's get rid of Z.

[DM72]

One thing I'm not liking is this compromise of kneeling before the anthem is played. N.O. is the next team that's taking Dallas' lead by kneeling before the anthem. As far as I'm concerned, that defeats the purpose.

[Llevron]

Just now, DM72 said:

One thing I'm not liking is this compromise of kneeling before the anthem is played. N.O. is the next team that's taking Dallas' lead by kneeling before the anthem. As far as I'm concerned, that defeats the purpose.

 

It totally defeats the purpose but reality is that the NFL is a business and they are trying to find compromise between the players and fans so that they dont alienate either. The players are weak for letting it happen that way imo 

[steve09ru]

3 minutes ago, DM72 said:

One thing I'm not liking is this compromise of kneeling before the anthem is played. N.O. is the next team that's taking Dallas' lead by kneeling before the anthem. As far as I'm concerned, that defeats the purpose.

I don't think it defeats the purpose at all as it brings everyone together and shows unity.  If you do it during the anthem then you're not going to have that same effect where every player, coach, etc. come together as one.  It allows a national platform for the issues and it always allows for it not to be done during a time that should be set aside for honoring our vets/active military.

Edited September 29, 2017 by steve09ru

[TradeTheBeal!]

I'm all for letting anybody do whatever they want during the anthem.  I'm all about that sweet freedom!

 

#myagenda

[Jumbo]

2 hours ago, grego said:

 

someone should start a topic specifically about an issue. but there should be ground rules- (here are some that generally derail conversation)

no ad hominems. debate the topic, dont attack the poster.

no insults, veiled or otherwise.

no trolilng. 

no assuming the worst intentions about a poster

an acknowledgement of the valid points from the 'other' side

a commitment to find the right answer, which includes and acknowledgement that nobody knows all of the answers and a commitment to understand someone elses viewpoint

 

any other suggestions?

 

Yes. First, you and everyone best make sure you follow moderator directives. I just recently posted explicitly and at length in here on staying closer to the specific  topic and avoid tangents. You and a couple others here participated in that engagement. Yet here you and a couple others are already willing to extend a tangent on the rooney rule.

 

Guess what position that puts each of  you in under rule 18.

 

Now semper fi wasn't engaged here when i made my post and i allow may not have seen it, and it's not introducing a tangent (which is unavoidable in any deep discussion on a major issue)  but it's the continued extension of it to an OT distraction that is as always clearly noted, the issue.

 

Second, regarding all those behaviors you listed, grego, that's fine, but I'd strongly urge people to make sure they simply read, comprehend, and follow the site rules as they exist , as we have already taken a great deal of time to write out in detail.  People who don't do this make themselves subject to loss of posting privileges and even membership no matter who they are.

 

Once again, no penalties are being applied at this point.  

 

This is a serious discussion taking place here and around the country and overall has been continuing intelligently and appropriately. My take is it's best served by having as much/diverse participation as possible, excepting hateful/idiot/trolling type stuff, of course.. Everyone engaged should strive to help keep the focus on topic best they can, instruct new joiners to do the same, or start a tangential topic thread in proper manner. Thanks.

[StillUnknown]

2 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

I don't think it defeats the purpose at all as it brings everyone together and shows unity.  If you do it during the anthem then you're not going to have that same effect where every player, coach, etc. come together as one.  It allows a national platform for the issues and it always allows for it not to be done during a time that should be set aside for honoring our vets/active military.

 

they don't even know what they're showing unity for

 

is it unity with their players who were needlessly called SOB's?

 

or are they finally catching up to massive problem of police brutality?

 

its a weak, watered down copout

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, StillUnknown said:

 

they don't even know what they're showing unity for

 

is it unity with their players who were needlessly called SOB's?

 

or are they finally catching up to massive problem of police brutality?

 

its a weak, watered down copout

 

Agree. I dont necessarily think the actions themselves are bad and honestly had they done this first instead of heaving players kneel by themselves I dont know if we would even been in this position. 

 

Right now they are showing unity as the NFL. Which is great. But thats peanuts compared to showing unity as a human race and thats where their influence could be literally world changing. 

[steve09ru]

1 minute ago, StillUnknown said:

 

they don't even know what they're showing unity for

 

is it unity with their players who were needlessly called SOB's?

 

or are they finally catching up to massive problem of police brutality?

 

its a weak, watered down copout

 

to each their own.  It seems like now that if people want to join in with and show unity and make a statement it can only now be done during the national anthem and no other time is appropriate??  It may also be that the ones you didn't see kneeling before understood those problems but did not want to use the national anthem as their platform to make a statement.

 

I'm not sure why it's a bad thing, the more you can have join in, wouldn't that make the biggest statement?  As you can see throughout the whole beginning of this thread, many said they did not agree with it and wouldn't personally do it during the anthem but understood why he did.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Right now they are showing unity as the NFL. Which is great. But thats peanuts compared to showing unity as a human race and thats where their influence could be literally world changing. 

Why is it just showing unity as the NFL?  If they can push that unity to other avenues, isn't that how it starts?  Regardless of how they do it, people are either going to or are not.  You're going to have a lot less people hated and pissed off if you choose the other which will limit even further dividing.  And, if anything, I think people are already talking and taking a first step (IE BLM and Pro-Trump Rally).  Hope it does but we'll see if it continues

[mcsluggo]

2 hours ago, grego said:

 

someone should start a topic specifically about an issue. but there should be ground rules- (here are some that generally derail conversation)

no ad hominems. debate the topic, dont attack the poster.

no insults, veiled or otherwise.

no trolilng. 

no assuming the worst intentions about a poster

an acknowledgement of the valid points from the 'other' side

a commitment to find the right answer, which includes and acknowledgement that nobody knows all of the answers and a commitment to understand someone elses viewpoint

 

any other suggestions?

 

Beer.   Beer helps.

 

or cookies.    

 

(that is an either/or, not a both)

[Llevron]

25 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

 

Why is it just showing unity as the NFL?  If they can push that unity to other avenues, isn't that how it starts?  Regardless of how they do it, people are either going to or are not.  You're going to have a lot less people hated and pissed off if you choose the other which will limit even further dividing.  And, if anything, I think people are already talking and taking a first step (IE BLM and Pro-Trump Rally).  Hope it does but we'll see if it continues

 

I feel like it's just showing unity as the NFL because it wasn't until the NFL was called out that people like Tom, Aaron, and Kirk -some of the biggest names and yes white males - took part. Thats an important distinction to people like me and to people like Trump. In that you can argue what exactly it was that made them stand up. NFL criticism or police brutality. 

 

BUT you make a damn good point. Just like the argument has changed since Kap, it can very easily change again. It doesn't have to be about police brutality if we can get true unity to grow from it. My cynicism tells me it won't happen. But God damn what if it could. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Llevron

[Predicto]

17 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Gotcha.  I apologize then (to Benning, not TWA).  Sometimes his posts though just seem so much to make everything out as racist, I began to wonder.  

 

 

 

That's probably because Benning has personally experienced far more racism in his life than you or I have, or ever could have.  That's why listening to him is so important.  For us white guys, racism is an academic concept, one that we can all talk about like it was the history of Sri Lanka or the invention of the printing press.  Benning actually has to live with it, every day, and his perspective is about it is something that we white guys need to listen to truly understand the issue in a real way, not an abstract way.  

 

And that includes his anger, and his seeing race issue impacting subjects where we white guys don't naturally see it (and many of us don't want to see it even if it is there). 

 

Benning's posts are the furthest thing from trolling that there can be.  They are expressions of an uncomfortable reality where you and I are lucky enough not to have to live, but we need to stop closing our eyes to.  

Edited September 29, 2017 by Predicto

[Mr. Sinister]

27 minutes ago, StillUnknown said:

 

they don't even know what they're showing unity for

 

is it unity with their players who were needlessly called SOB's?

 

or are they finally catching up to massive problem of police brutality?

 

its a weak, watered down copout

 

Like I said before, 45 won. No matter how dumb he is, he can always count on the rest of America being a hell of a lot dumber

[Llevron]

7 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

Beer.   Beer helps.

 

or cookies.    

 

(that is an either/or, not a both)

 

I would love to have this conversation with some if y'all over a few brews. Some great minds (and TWA) show up in here. (Just kidding TWA lol)

[mcsluggo]

2 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

It totally defeats the purpose but reality is that the NFL is a business and they are trying to find compromise between the players and fans so that they dont alienate either. The players are weak for letting it happen that way imo 

 

i don;t think it defeats the purpose at all.  The purpose was to raise awareness of an issue.  Kneeling before allows somebody to simultaneously:   

 

1)  Let it be known that they see the important point raised, and acknowledge it.

2)  while not making a stand (in EITHER direction) on all of the distraction about the METHOD of getting the point across.

 

compromise is good, and this is a good compromise...  and this one shows respectful agreement to the important points.

 

 

(and the complete OPPOSITE reaction by the butt-nuggets like trump that purposely obviate the actual point of the protest, and use it as justification for ****ty behavior and statements)  

Edited September 29, 2017 by mcsluggo

[Predicto]

15 hours ago, zoony said:

 

How do you reconcile your sainted view of Kaepernick with his Cop Piggy socks?  Respectful.  Thats just goddamn outstanding stuff.

 

As for your last paragraph, Ibecause you and others want to keep talking about something doesnt make it so.  Look at this thread, its basically 15 Chatty Kathy dolls pulling their own strings, repeatedly, with the occasional drive by post by some idiot that gets all you pansies back in a complete twist.  

 

My take is that the average "white middle and working class sports fan" doesnt give two ****s about Kaepernick because theyre too busy putting in 10 hour workdays and trying to raise a family 6 days a week.  The one escape they do get, watching football on Sundays, now involves lectures from Bob Costas and Jason LaCanfora rather than anlysis from Jaws.  (Two people that I can tell you frome personal interraction are flaming assholes of the highest order..JLC is the most crass, rude, obnoxious ass I have ever shared oxygen withbut I digress).  At which point, yah, they probably say "man **** that Kaepernick guy".  Then its back to work Monday.

 

So thats my take, just as factually based and sited as yours is, therefore equal.

 

 

Hey, actually read my posts and think about them before you give us your hot take, Mr. hard-working Ford Truck man? 

 

 

[Llevron]

9 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

i don;t think it defeats the purpose at all.  The purpose was to raise awareness of an issue.  Kneeling before allows somebody to simultaneously:   

 

1)  Let it be known that they see the important point raised, and acknowledge it.

2)  while not making a stand (in EITHER direction) on all of the distraction about the METHOD of getting the point across.

 

compromise is good, and this is a good compromise...  and this one shows respectful agreement to the important points.

 

 

(and the complete OPPOSITE reaction to the butt-nuggets like trump that purposely obviate the actual point of the protest, and use it as justification for ****ty behavior and statements)  

 

 

You know what, I dont actually agree with this. Thats not how I see it at all. But im willing to go so far as to say that if the majority of people see this the way that you do - or hell even a fraction of the people who dont understand MY views see it the way you do - that my view point can change and I can totally dig that. 

 

This would only be the start. But it would be a damn good one and much better than the 'my way or no way' thing we have going on politically in this country.  

 

EDIT: We just need to make sure that the overall point isnt diluted. Rather that be actual unity as a country or awareness of police brutality. I would accept either as a step forward. Especially if people like Tom Terrific where in on it. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Llevron

[Predicto]

1 hour ago, SemperFi Skins said:

 

Equality.. best man/woman for the job.

 

but it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't fit your agenda.

 

 

Wait, what?   A rule that makes sure that NFL owners, who have a many decades long history of hiring only white guys as head coaches, have to think about one other possible candidate before they choose to hire anyone they want for the job is somehow...  anti-equality?  

 

And you say we are the ones with an agenda?  

[mcsluggo]

6 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

 

Hey, actually read my posts and think about them before you give us your hot take, Mr. hard-working Ford Truck man? 

 

 

 

 

great... now i'm going to forever picture Calvin pissing on a Chevy sign when Zoony posts... 

 

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

God ****ing forbid Joe Sixpack's day is ruined by 5 minutes of conversation they aren't interested in.  Go take a piss and come back, the game will still be getting played by the people you consider not worthy of having their own opinions about things.  

Edited September 29, 2017 by PleaseBlitz

[mcsluggo]

 

 

[Predicto]

48 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

I don't think it defeats the purpose at all as it brings everyone together and shows unity.  If you do it during the anthem then you're not going to have that same effect where every player, coach, etc. come together as one.  It allows a national platform for the issues and it always allows for it not to be done during a time that should be set aside for honoring our vets/active military.

 

Genuine question.  When did the start of a football game become our national time for honoring our vets and active military?   I've been going to football games for half a century, and it's not how I remember it.

 

I feel like the military angle is something that has been brought in by the Fox News folks to make sure that folks who raise issues about racial inequality are seen as anti-patriotic and anti-military when they do so.