How do we get the run game going?

[Conn]

1 minute ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Because I watched him play, and watched how the team was constantly put into passing situations. And watched how despite tough sledding, getting met behind the line often in 2014, he still averaged 4.1 ypc. And watched how, without him in the lineup last year, it was the same **** sandwich.

Okay, but if he's just as much of a random guy in this scheme as anyone else, why re-sign him? Even if Jones was a miss, you still have to try to aim higher than just a guy. Morris was a rhythm runner, like Portis in some ways, who got stronger as the game went on due to his stamina vs. tiring opposing defenses. He needed to get into a groove. If Gruden likes to utilize a receiving RB, etc. it didn't make much sense to hang onto a guy like Morris even if you DO assume that he wasn't getting worse and wasn't "bad" in this scheme, just average. 

It comes down to fans being emotional, it seems to me. I guess I just don't really get like that and don't see why we "owed" it to Morris to let him finish his career here if he wasn't a good fit for the scheme. He had 4 years here, a few of them good and one of them very good and even magical with the read option. That's enough for me, I don't think we're missing out on anything but his durability and nice-guy-ness.

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Well thats certainly the most popular narrative. Doesn't quite hold up, though when you see this:

2012 (4.8 ypc, 335 carries)

2013 (4.6 ypc, 276 carries)

2014 (4.1 ypc, 265 carries)

What I am seeing, is declining opportunity, not necessarily declining production, unless of course you view those numbers as unproductive. What actually declined every year, going back to Shanahan, was the play of the quarterback, decline of the defense (forcing the offense into passing mode and abandoning the run even though it was effective, or maybe im the only one that remembers this... Sure seems like it) and historically bad special teams, bottoming out in 2014, where despite being a Shanahan creation and a read option product, he had success in a new offense, with a new coach, and three different starting quarterbacks, all playing like crap.

 

But everyone who knocked him when he was tearing it up finally got the season they wanted, 2015:

3.7 ypc, 202 carries, one touchdown. Finally all their dumb and baseless analyses was proven to be correct, though they willingly made Morris the scapegoat, because anyone with at least one eye, even with Morris' struggles, could see that the team simply could not consistently run the football no matter who was carrying it. They also forgot that at the beginning of the season, he easily  rushed for over 100 yds against Miami and looked like the same old "Crappy" Alfred Morris, getting it done on the ground.

 

But instead he decided by himself that he was going to suck the rest of the season, and walk out without anyone even attempting to give him a decent offer to return. And that is the tragedy.

 

 

Let me start by saying I really like Alfred Morris. I got to meet him (just a handshake, nothing big deal) and he could not have been more gracious. I would love for him to still be a Redskin.

However, he just does not fit this offense. It's not a knock on him, it's just a fact. Like DEs that just are not OLBs. It's not ofr lack of effort or willingness, they just don't have the right skillset.

As for the stats above, you left out last season which proves that point - 202 att - 751 yds - 3.7 yds/carry and only 1 TD.That's a big drop off for a 4th yr guy. Admittedly the Oline was not very good at run blocking after gm 2 when KL and SL went down. But again, he just did not look comfortable in this offense where you need to get through smaller holes, something smaller backs are better at.  

I wish him well, even in dallast. Just as long as they don't win much!

[Mr. Sinister]

19 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Okay, but if he's just as much of a random guy in this scheme as anyone else, why re-sign him? Even if Jones was a miss, you still have to try to aim higher than just a guy. Morris was a rhythm runner, like Portis in some ways, who got stronger as the game went on due to his stamina vs. tiring opposing defenses. He needed to get into a groove. 

So does every other running back worth his salt. That's the nature of that position. It always has been that way. 

I don't think they owed it to him to keep him here. They owed it to him to give him a shot at coming back. But they just basically told him not to let the door hit him on the way out. And I think that was disrespectful, as if he was so bad he simply is not worthy of this system, even in a reduced role. That is crap. 

 

And yeah, it is annoying as hell that some fans lauded his selflessness and humble nature and  how he handled his money, only to say "**** you, have a nice career" when it was time for contract negotiations," But that doesn't enter into the equation for me when specifically discussing him as a football player here. None of the popular criticisms of him hold up well. None. Not when yo uh factor in the state of the ream around him, and not when you factor in the prlerformances from all of the running backs who have played alongside him.

[TradeTheBeal!]

I am perfectly fine not having Morris on the team.  His lead-footed ZBS plodding doesn't fit with what we need at RB in this offense.  

[Mr. Sinister]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Let me start by saying I really like Alfred Morris. I got to meet him (just a handshake, nothing big deal) and he could not have been more gracious. I would love for him to still be a Redskin.

However, he just does not fit this offense. As for the stats above, you left out last season which proves that point - 202 att - 751 yds - 3.7 yds/carry and only 1 TD.That' a big drop off for a 4th yr guy.

I think I covered 2015 quite clearly. He struggled. Badly. So did the line. So did the other running backs. But no one brings up those other issues, they just focus on Morris, who I think deserved a break, when the previous three years he played good football.

 

And as for not fitting the system, he seemed to fit it fine the year before, and any running back who is durable, has decent vision, footwork, and who can carry the rock 20 times a game without breaking in half, has a place in any offense. Maybe not as a starter, but they have value.

 

Im confident enough to say that about any of the current Skins running backs. Not yet. 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I think I covered 2015 quite clearly. He struggled. Badly. So did the line. So did the other running backs. But no one brings up those other issues, they just focus on Morris, who I think deserved a break, when the previous three years he played good football.

 

And as for not fitting the system, he seemed to fit it fine the year before, and any running back who is durable, has decent vision, footwork, and who can carry the rock 20 times a game without breaking in half, has a place in any offense. Maybe not as a starter, but they have value.

 

Im confident enough to say that about any of the current Skins running backs. Not yet. 

 

I added to my comment as I realized I left out my reasoning for believing he did not fit the offense very well. I disagree he "looked fine" in 2014. great. He went from 4.7/att in 2012 to 4.1 in 2014. Then down to 3.7 in 2015. If you take out the first 2 gms its a little worse at 3.58-  I do agree at least some of that was the oline play. But what was missing we were the big plays - something MJs and CT can give you with their better speed.

I agree that I am not sure we have the right backs on the team. I also would have had no problem with AM being kept. I really like him. But I understand why they moved on. Again, I wish him well.

[RonArtest15]

We get our run game going by signing Karlos Williams.  He'll be good to go by week 5. 

[Conn]

1 hour ago, RonArtest15 said:

We get our run game going by signing Karlos Williams.  He'll be good to go by week 5. 

If he sat across from McCloughan, looked into his eyes and came out as a Galette-style character redemption case who had Scot's trust, I'd be all for it.

I don't know how much people know about Karlos Williams the athlete, but he's an absolute animal of a talent. 5 star recruit at safety who found his way onto a stacked FSU team and didn't really have the instincts for the position. He played about a year and a half as a raw RB getting by purely on talent and then played as a rookie last year and basically did nothing but find ways to get in the endzone. It was a great rookie year considering.

Unfortunately that is all about Karlos Williams the talent. We need to know about Karlos Williams the man. I would trust Scot to make that call of course, if we brought him in. 

Would love to hear that this was his wakeup call and that our locker room was perfect to unlock his potential...Rex Ryan is a players coach but he's not a great fit with everyone. Gruden gives a little more tough love from what I've seen--which, admittedly, is mostly a season of each of them on Hard Knocks lol 

Edit: I'll add a quote from a Bills fan on another message board, this was posted before the Karlos Williams cut but shows where they are as an organization--

Might as well just go ahead and fire everybody now.  No sense in dragging out the inevitable. Starts with the GM. All the bizarre handling of the drafts, FA signings and extensions is baffling at times.  This year for me is really back breaking.

[RandyHolt]

Eventually, coaching needs to be scrutinized. Are we there yet - no, but even with a healthy backfield, we are scaring no one.  Our run game has been trending down for years, and now think Lauvao and those magic 2 games may have been all that was needed by defenses to see what Cally added to our run game; to adjust and stop letting our LG run around on the 2nd level taking names. 

Short term, bring in a FA back from Scot's list of football players, tell Pierre expect a call for week 2, keep an eye on Karlos Williams, and hope the shoulder is not that severe.  It goes without mention, find an OL and a few plays that they get some push on, any push on. If we dont know yet, figure out if are a zone or power OL. 

[Yeen80]

3 hours ago, RonArtest15 said:

We get our run game going by signing Karlos Williams.  He'll be good to go by week 5. 

 

A 261 pound RB? No

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, Yeen80 said:

 

A 261 pound RB? No

If it happened, if Scot was satisfied that he wanted it badly enough after having it taken away, he'd be back down to his playing weight obviously. Or it would never happen.

[Peregrine]

I know some people are saying Alfred Morris doesnt fit this running offense but, lets be honest, based on what we have seen, no one fits this running offense.

Im still not convinced Gruden is actually a good coach, and didnt just get lucky with drafted talent.  At this point, if Jones is out for any length of time I think they need to bring in a vet.

[Koolblue13]

Morris is a slow runner, who doesn't catch or pass block. Last year, he kept bouncing everything outside. Let's please move on.

[RonArtest15]

7 hours ago, Yeen80 said:

 

A 261 pound RB? No

He'd have a good 6-7 weeks to drop about 25 pounds.  If he's serious about making the most of a 2nd chance, he'll do it. 

With our running situation looking poor (right now), the Skins would be crazy to not at least to due diligence on trying to sign Williams. 

[Greek44]

38 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

He'd have a good 6-7 weeks to drop about 25 pounds.  If he's serious about making the most of a 2nd chance, he'll do it. 

With our running situation looking poor (right now), the Skins would be crazy to not at least to due diligence on trying to sign Williams. 

This is how I feel.  There is too much raw talent there to ignore this.  

[flexxskins]

I'm more than a little surprised to read that some aren't too high on Moses. IMO he has improved more than any other o-lineman that I can think of in recent years. Watching him struggle at LT during training camp a couple of seasons ago was actually kind of painful to watch. He has come a long way since then, and at RT made huge strides (especially during the second half of last season).

[justice98]

11 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Eventually, coaching needs to be scrutinized. Are we there yet - no, but even with a healthy backfield, we are scaring no one.  Our run game has been trending down for years, and now think Lauvao and those magic 2 games may have been all that was needed by defenses to see what Cally added to our run game; to adjust and stop letting our LG run around on the 2nd level taking names. 

 

It's amusing how much stock people put into those 2 games, in terms of Lavauo and the run game in general.  

58 minutes ago, Greek44 said:

This is how I feel.  There is too much raw talent there to ignore this.  

And not enough talent on the current roster to ignore it.  

I'd just worry about the time needed for him to get in the shape he needs to get in. He wouldnt be of any use for most of the season.  But hey, Eddie Lacy got his act together, msybe Williams can to.

[TradeTheBeal!]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Morris is a slow runner, who doesn't catch or pass block. Last year, he kept bouncing everything outside. Let's please move on.

 

But he averaged 4.7 ypc in 2012!!!

[MisterPinstripe]

The issue with Morris last year is he wasnt seeing any holes, they were there. If he starts seeing holes he can still be a good productive back, but was definitely time to let him go as much as I like the guy.

[Panamon28]

I wouldn't sign Williams - just doesn't care enough about football. Whether by late round draft pick trade, or late cut, I would bring in one of the following: B.Bolden (also a good ST player), B.Sankey or D.Cobb from Tenn (neither proven but both have more experience than our back-ups), K.Davis from KC (not great but has size, can play teams, and can fill in; or maybe whoever Seattle has as their 4th RB (rookie A.Collins?); D.Brown (NE) is old but serviceable, as is Pierre Thomas.

[Mr. Sinister]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

But he averaged 4.7 ypc in 2012!!!

Good to see you havent lost your sense of humor arter getting embarrased in the Tailgate

[wilco_holland]

I like Matt Jones to be 'less side step happy'. I think he would be more effectieve by going north south and lower his pad level. Does side step just don't work great for him.

But I feel like we dont have the right o-line pieces. Trent, Brandon and Morgan are looking good when they are moving. Look at our screen plays and tosses of last year. You see they look great in does plays but just on the pure power run they look less comfortabel  (except Trent ofcourse). Long and 'center' don't look good in space at all...

I like how Kelley did in the pass d. He has soms nice blocks. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Good to see you havent lost your sense of humor arter getting embarrased in the Tailgate

 

Ha!  I'm resilient in that way...much like Alfred Morris.

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, MisterPinstripe said:

The issue with Morris last year is he wasnt seeing any holes, they were there. If he starts seeing holes he can still be a good productive back, but was definitely time to let him go as much as I like the guy.

I suspect he was a victim of his own effort. He was trying so hard that it hurt him. I remain a fan of Morris, but can't disagree with the decision to let him leave. He didn't earn that next contract. Sadly, no one one beat him out, but he didn't do enough to change minds and win over the coaching staff.

There are backs who are never the biggest, fastest, or strongest who seem to be far more successful than they should be. They are often underappreciated. I think Morris is one of these. He was often much better than he should have been. The fact that he produced better with Griffin than with Cousins shouldn't be ignored. The fact that his numbers declined shouldn't either and overall, he underproduced in a year where it was obvious to everyone (including Morris) that the coaching staff wanted very much to phase him out. He couldn't overcome that like Jeff Bostic did year after year or Neil Okiewicz did. Both of those (who are among my favorite Redskins) were always called too small, too weak, and too slow, but always got the job done and somehow much more than that.

We have no choice to move on, but I root for the little guy because when it comes to athletics that's the player that best represents me. So hail to Morris. Great Redskin! Long live the new king too!

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

11 hours ago, Peregrine said:

I know some people are saying Alfred Morris doesnt fit this running offense but, lets be honest, based on what we have seen, no one fits this running offense.

 

This is a fair point.

But I do also think that none of the RBs on the roster currently are good. Watching them all live was disappointing. Very few "flashes" if that makes sense.

Again, this why I think our ceiling is firmly set at maybe a Wildcard playoff game victory.

and yeah, I'm not really bothered either way about Morris. Had he stayed here, he still would have stunk. With Dallas, he'll be playing behind competent run blocking so that'll help him play well but even then, I doubt he plays much this year.