Welcome to the Redskins Josh Doctson WR TCU

[Vanguard]

WR's should not be expected to have high production in year one. Two years minimum to really bloom, IMO. Adjustment to the NFL takes longer for them in general. We are in a great space for Doctson to really study, learn and practice his art. If he really blows up? I'm sure that it will be at the end of year 2, or in year 3. But I hope to see a lot of glimpses between now and then.

 

I agree.  I'd just like to see him contribute in the red zone, and be a solid possession receiver in year one.  I don't know that anyone is expecting him to be great.  I just think people see his upside and expect good things to happen when the ball is thrown his way.

[Wyvern]

I have a minimal level of expectations of Doctson -- he's not going up against the Texas Tech secondary any longer. He's now going to get really tested on how well he can shake loose from his defender. Overall, he's got good hands but I don't believe his YAC was all that great. Consequently, for the short term, he might just be good as a possession down receiver, and as a "go-to", "red zone" option; after all, even if he doesn't get separation, he has shown he can fight very effectively for the contested ball.

But Doctson's going to need time -- just like a lot of rookie WRs -- especially since he will have to get used to more sophisticated defenses, higher quality defenders, and effectively cope with a more complicated route tree. Time will tell.

Hopefully Josh uses that time well, and bulks up a bit more. He seems to have a somewhat slighter-than-optimal frame, and already has a few injuries in the books. So, Doctson should use the time (maybe right up to the end of the second season) to build up a little more muscle on his frame, acquire a little more veteran savvy and extra moves, and most important, avoid the injury bug. After all, fighting for contested passes is a rough and tumble business in the NFL.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I have a minimal level of expectations of Doctson

I understand this sentiment, and I understand the sentiment that WRs take a couple of years to adjust.  On top of that, he hasn't been healthy, and that will put him behind a bit going into TC.

 

However, I think people are selling Doctson's athletic ability woefully short.  He's a ridiculous leaper.  He high points the ball.  He's a straight up, frisbee catching dog out there. 

 

I agree that we will use him in the red zone, but I also think we will use him in a lot more packages than that.  Gruden might have his flaws, but designing concepts in the passing game is not one of them.  He likes to take shots down the field.  I gotta think Jay gets Doctson on the field plenty (if healthy), and at worst, just sends him freakin' deep all day with Kirk chucking it out there a few times.  

 

Everyone is sweating our run game.  Jay doesn't care about the run game.  He wants to throw it around the yard.  I'm thinking we see a lot of 4WR/5WR sets with DJax, Crowder, Garcon, Docston, and Reed.  Let's push tempo.  Let's ****ing roll.

[Conn]

People don't see a sexy 40 time so they think he wins more on technique and leaping than anything...but if you combine all his measurables, he's actually scoring in the 90th percentile of all NFL WR's in the SPARQ. He's a hell of an athlete for such a tall, long player.

[TeddyKGB]

People don't see a sexy 40 time so they think he wins more on technique and leaping than anything...but if you combine all his measurables, he's actually scoring in the 90th percentile of all NFL WR's in the SPARQ. He's a hell of an athlete for such a tall, long player.

Your right, you do kind of get swayed by the lack of sexy. Thanks for this little nugget, didn't know that. I went in with the mindset of "we got AJ Green-lite"

[TSO]

People don't see a sexy 40 time so they think he wins more on technique and leaping than anything...but if you combine all his measurables, he's actually scoring in the 90th percentile of all NFL WR's in the SPARQ. He's a hell of an athlete for such a tall, long player.

I was in the process of watching every single game of his in 2015, start to finish, to get a feel for not just his skill set, but the things highlights can't tell you; like when he makes plays (big moments?), how his team uses him (is he a one trick pony?), his play when the ball isn't coming to him (run blocking, selling routes, etc...), among other things.

I don't normally do this, but the conversation here surrounding Doctson intrigued me because you almost get the sense that many are a little "meh" about the pick, or they think he'll be good in the redzone and with a deep jump ball here and there, but that he's generally not an overall well-rounded WR.

For instance, you'd often see any critique of his game include his blocking, his lack of willingness or general deficiency in running after the catch, and a lack of diverse routes in the offense he was in. Most of which ties into the mentioning of his build, which you're touching on a little bit here.

That's not to say they believe he can't develop those aspects of his game, just that they consider them obvious flaws right now. So I wanted to see for myself.

I was going to make a thread about everything I saw when I was done, with the videos and the points in time where something significant occurred. I got up to the 5th game against the Longhorns, then got busy with, well, life. Hopefully I'll get it done soon.

So far though... all I'm going to say is, either I totally suck as an evaluator of talent and I'm incapable of assessing anything properly, or those with negative ideas about his physicality are incredibly off. I've found the shortage of routes idea to be somewhat true, but likely overblown as well.

At this point, I'm super excited about what he's going to bring to the table. God willing he stays healthy.

[Conn]

Your right, you do kind of get swayed by the lack of sexy. Thanks for this little nugget, didn't know that. I went in with the mindset of "we got AJ Green-lite"

 

I was actually wrong---his SPARQ score was in the 94th percentile in the entire NFL. The exact same score as Corey Coleman, the "freak athlete" at WR in this draft (aside from the raw German kid).

 

Here's the link: https://3sigmaathlete.com/rankings/wr/

 

Now I'm sure we drafted Doctson almost 100% due to his tape and personality, but it should be noted that the Seahawks are HUGE into using SPARQ as a way to differentiate potential playmakers at all positions...the notable difference being that Scot cares a lot more about character and work ethic. 

 

Other top picks of McCloughan here in DC (aka his only NFL job post-Seahawks) outside of Doctson are Scherff (90th-98th pecentile, depending on which numbers you trust) and Preston Smith (84th percentile, which is really good considering the freakish athletes the NFL has at passrusher).

 

Scherff: https://3sigmaathlete.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/ol2.pdf

Smith: https://3sigmaathlete.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/edge_top.png

 

Now I'm not saying this is a huge part of our evaluation process (and I'm not interested enough to dig into the rest of our draft picks) but its worth keeping an eye on in future drafts since 3/4 of our picks* in the top two rounds since Scot has been here are SPARQ standouts, and he spent time in a FO that values the score very highly. 

 

*Su'a Cravens is the 2nd rounder that doesn't fit the profile, showing that it might not be a trend, but merely a coincidence: He is not a strong candidate in the SPARQ score at LB or S.

 

Edit: At a quick glance, it seems that almost none of our draft picks outside the top 2 rounds are SPARQ standouts. Only Everett was even above average, out of the many guys I looked up quickly. Maybe this is a situation where Scot wants technique and supreme athleticism if he has the choice in the first two rounds (but focuses mostly on "football guys" after who aren't great athletes) or maybe its just a coincidence that Scherff, Smith, and Doctson were all SPARQ standouts.

[TheGreek1973]

People don't see a sexy 40 time so they think he wins more on technique and leaping than anything...but if you combine all his measurables, he's actually scoring in the 90th percentile of all NFL WR's in the SPARQ. He's a hell of an athlete for such a tall, long player.

Best post.  One think I love about Dockson is how he catches the ball.  He makes it look so natural so easy.  The fact that he doesn't have to produce this year a lot is even better as he can study and learn while he gets his body and mind into the speed of the NFL.  

[RedBeast]

Only one score category really counts - Touchdowns. I don't care if he is Gerald Ford and can't walk and chew gum at the same time, just catch the damn ball and get in the end zone. The bottom line is production.

Over-analysis = paralysis

Not sure if he can be a number one, but believe he will translate to a solid number 2...at least. What I don't know is if he can be tough enough to constantly go across the middle. Garcon can do this, hopefully he has what it takes a la Art.

We'll see. We got some bad history drafting WRs so I am a bit jaded

[pjfootballer]

Just saw a tweet by HapHazzard in the twitter thread stating that 45% of this year's first round picks have missed time in camp due to injuries. So we're not alone. I know some have had concerns over the way our staff has handled Doctson, but rest assured, it's not just us.  It's the nature of the game.

[JSSkinz]

I get the feeling that Jay can't really say much about Josh's status because the staff can't find anything wrong with him, if he were to disclose that it would make Josh look like a ****.

 

I'm wrong all the time but its just a gut feeling I have based on Jays facial expression and body language during the last press conference.

 

[SkinsGuy]

33 minutes ago, jschuck12001 said:

I get the feeling that Jay can't really say much about Josh's status because the staff can't find anything wrong with him, if he were to disclose that it would make Josh look like a ****.

 

I'm wrong all the time but its just a gut feeling I have based on Jays facial expression and body language during the last press conference.

 

Or his facial expressions are just frustration at being asked the same question every day, day after day, and there is nothing new to tell anybody.

[sportjunkie07]

Im not optimistic right now. It is an uphill battle now and early injuries don't seem to bode well for nfl draft picks, even higher ones.

Im not expecting the dominance of the likes of aj green, Julio, or cooper. SPARQ results aside, I just don't see the same kind of college dominance. I see an above average number 1 receiver (iow.. better than garcon has ever been) who will be a major threat in the red zone. I think that's good for where he was drafted.

Now get healthy and get on the field.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, sportjunkie07 said:

Im not optimistic right now. It is an uphill battle now and early injuries don't seem to bode well for nfl draft picks, even higher ones.

Im not expecting the dominance of the likes of aj green, Julio, or cooper. SPARQ results aside, I just don't see the same kind of college dominance. I see an above average number 1 receiver (iow.. better than garcon has ever been) who will be a major threat in the red zone. I think that's good for where he was drafted.

Now get healthy and get on the field.

Honestly you can almost never see these things ahead of time. It's just one example, but OBJ coming out had consistently underwhelmed vs. SEC competition and his own college teammate (the much less dynamic possession receiver, Jarvis Landry) had arguably more spectacular, impactful plays than he did and against better competition. But OBJ had special traits that allowed him to thrive in the NFL inmediately, some of which hadn't particularly helped him in college with the awful Mettenberger at QB--his incredible route-running ability was wasted in college and overlooked by some draftniks, while his hands and propensity for the spectacular catch stuck out of course.

What I'm saying is that Doctson has way too many directly translatable skills in his toolbox to already place a ceiling on his potential or his career--his combo of height/hops/plucking ability alone makes him a unique TD threat (as you alluded to) and that doesn't even brush what he can do between the 20's. 

He's never going to be Brandon Marshall breaking tackles at the sticks. He's never going to get separation downfield like Desean. He's never going to cut on a dime in a way that makes a cover corner lose his soul like OBJ or Antonio Brown. He's never going to take a screen to the house through his own vision and athleticism like Demaryius Thomas. 

But he's his own player, and he wins in ways that only he and a few others can on the contested catch and downfield while the balls is in the air, and is very well rounded outside of that. 

Don't be so hasty to think you know what he is as a player, based on his college tape and his zero practice experience. He might surprise you the way that many prospects do when they actually get on an NFL field surrounded by real talent, placed in a position to succeed in a scheme that fits their skill-set. Projecting players to the NFL is hard enough--Projecting ceilings is nearly impossible.

[TSO]

^^ Honestly, Conn, I don't think what they know is even based on his college tape. I know I'm sounding like a broken record on this, but from what I've watched in detail I sincerely have no idea what people are talking about when they downplay his talent based on college tape. 

[goskins10]

Many of the comments on this thread are a perfect example of there is nothing so small that it cannot be blown completely out of proportion! 

He has been out with an early injury. Ok, so what! Not sure how that translates to he will never be a #1! Or, he is not physical enough! One of my favorites - he is missing TC time so he will be almost useless this year! Two other goodies - The staff is not handling him correctly (WTF??) or my #1 winner - Jay is frustrated because they can't really find anything wrong with him! 

I have no idea what his prognosis is. Nor do I know what his ceiling is or is not. I have watched hours and hours of tape on this guy and drafted him our mock draft. He is the real deal. He fights for a ball like his life depends on it. He looks lean but is very strong, has a huge and effective wingspan, can out jump just about anyone, and is very smart.  

Provided his injury does not linger (lost my crystal ball, sorry) the sky is the limit for him. 

We have turned into a society of "if it's not immediate, throw it out!" Let's have just a little patience!

 

[sportjunkie07]

6 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Honestly you can almost never see these things ahead of time. 

Don't be so hasty to think you know what he is as a player, based on his college tape and his zero practice experience. He might surprise you the way that many prospects do when they actually get on an NFL field surrounded by real talent, placed in a position to succeed in a scheme that fits their skill-set. Projecting players to the NFL is hard enough--Projecting ceilings is nearly impossible.

I agree with the bulk of your post. 

Time will tell. I didn't watch much obj or Antonio brown in college. I did watch a bit of julio aj green and amari cooper. I don't think Doctsons on that level. That's all.

He certainly found a way to win, and his high pointing and hands are impressive.

Who knows though. Jays propensity to scheme rookies into play+cousins+doctsons skill+jordan reed could lead to some very good things.

 

[Bonez3]

His college tape is outrageous, looks like Julio Jones. I also don't know what people are talking about.

 

last thing I have on record pre draft about him was how in the hell do some mocks have him in 2nd round.

 

I don't care he's injured, I would just like a little more clarity around matter.

[RandyHolt]

"All precautionary; nothing to see here, folks"

I find a little solace in other 1sts injured around the league, but not much.

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

"All precautionary; nothing to see here, folks"

I find a little solace in other 1sts injured around the league, but not much.

At least he's our 4rth WR. Cowboys drafted a RB to take heat off their defense and he's going through the exact same thing.

[CBass1724]

Dude is gonna be a stud.  Just let him heal and he'll be a beast once he hits the field.  No need to be so shortsighted or impatient about him and his career.  I'd rather him miss the first 6 games of the year and be healthy for 7-16 than be constantly banged up with a lingering Achilles injury starting immediately.

[JSSkinz]

10 hours ago, goskins10 said:

He has been out with an early injury. Ok, so what! Not sure how that translates to he will never be a #1! Or, he is not physical enough! One of my favorites - he is missing TC time so he will be almost useless this year! Two other goodies - The staff is not handling him correctly (WTF??) or my #1 winner - Jay is frustrated because they can't really find anything wrong with him! 

 

 

 

I can't speak on the other crap you wrote because I never addressed his talent, I trust our GM.

I will address your #1 because I wrote it, if you don't think Jay, Scott, and Scott's hand aren't frustrated with the young mans inability to get on the field then you're not as smart as you think you are.

[pjfootballer]

Tweet in the Twitter thread said he's working off to the side doing some drills and exercises and it's the most they've seen since the injury. Looks like it's going well. Cross fingers and toes.

[Dirt]

This whole thing about Scots hand bugs me.  If it didn't have a bandage on it, no one would even know that "omg he got mad about a thing and punched a thing."  He and the coaches probably get mad about lots of little things, and if we heard about all of them, we would think the team was in complete dissaray.

 

for the love of god, can we stop over analyzing everything already.  It's a normal football team now.  He's hurt.  It happens.  

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, jschuck12001 said:

I can't speak on the other crap you wrote because I never addressed his talent, I trust our GM.

I will address your #1 because I wrote it, if you don't think Jay, Scott, and Scott's hand aren't frustrated with the young mans inability to get on the field then you're not as smart as you think you are.

 

You stated they were likely frustrated because "the staff can't find anything wrong with him", something that belongs much more in the conspiracy theory thread with all the other baseless conclusions. Had you stopped with they are frustrated with him not being on the field, I would have agreed because, well that's pretty obvious.