The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Renegade7]

@TheGoodBits I'm not against a buy back program, I'm jus concerned a lot of folks will jus use that money to buy upgraded guns by trading in their old ones. Call me cynical, but I have no idea how to stop that.

[The Evil Genius]

Listened to this this morning on the commute in. Hogg is a known survivor of a school shooting and a gun advocate. He shared how even the most red Florida legislature was convinced by kids to pass some gun control, including raising the age to 21 for assault rifle purchases. 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[Llevron]

11 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Listened to this this morning on the commute in. Hogg is a known survivor of a school shooting and a gun advocate. He shared how even the most red Florida legislature was convinced by kids to pass some gun control, including raising the age to 21 for assault rifle purchases. 

 

 

 

 

I think he was on MSNBC last night at around 11? Not sure if it was him, but it was another survivor with the same message if not. People like him give me hope, but at the same time kinda made me tear up if ima be honest, because his pain and emotion are obvious and you can really feel that he is not a polished speaker.....but his words are emotions being as raw as they are they just get to you.  

 

I know he is right. People cant just let this get past them without caring or we are just done as a society. But the problem is getting past all the extra bull**** and doing something. Just one ****ing thing to get the ball rolling and then something else if that doesn't work. Problem is out government is so broken we cant do anything about children getting killed at school. I almost want dems to give in and arm schools to the teeth just to prove once and for all if it works. But I don't think it will, and I have a hard time using kids as test subjects for something like this. We shouldn't have this problem. 

[bcl05]

[Spaceman Spiff]

3 hours ago, ixcuincle said:

 

 

Must be nice.  We've got too big of a gun culture here.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again...I grew up in a house with practically an armory.  Lots of shotguns used for skeet, trap, sporting clays and hunting.  Rifles, handguns...and yeah, a few assault rifles.  I'll agree with you guys, no one NEEDS an assault rifle, but they're a lot of fun to shoot.

 

But if I had one (I don't), would I trade it in if it meant preventing what happened yesterday?  Absolutely, 100%.

 

The problem here is the NRA and the fact that they literally buy politicians on the Right.  And the NRA will say that never not once has an NRA member committed one of these mass shootings, so why punish them and the responsible gun owners out there?  

 

I understand their line of thinking and agree with it to a certain degree.  But that degree stops when we keep having events like we did yesterday.  Like we did with Sandy Hook years ago and Columbine in '99.  

 

Mental health is an issue.  But, IMO, the bigger issue is the "come and take it from my cold dead hands" crowd of which I have family members that are in that group.  The idea of sacrificing guns for the greater good is foreign to them.  The idea of not being able to go to a gun show and walk out with a gun is absurd to them.  I've been to the gun shows at the Dulles Expo Center and they are absolutely frightening.  Let's be real, we're all judgemental people, rightly or wrongly.  And I have seen WAY too many people at these shows who look like they shouldn't be anywhere near a gun.  Ever.

 

And so for me, the bigger question is how do you change people from being selfish assholes?  Cause, IMO, this is really what the conversation is all about.  Selfish politicians fattening their pockets and being literally purchased by the NRA.  Selfish citizens who can't fathom that maybe, just maybe, better background checks and waiting periods could prevent some of this.  And that they don't need an assault rifle.  And that their little fantasy of being a "well armed militia" is a wet dream about a civil war in which our military would squash them in a second, assault rifles or not.  And their failure to realize that we're the only country in the world that has this big of a problem with gun violence.  

 

But, you know, 'Mericuh. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Spaceman Spiff

[Burgold]

9 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

 

 

Mental health is an issue.  But, IMO, the bigger issue is the "come and take it from my cold dead hands" crowd of which I have family members that are in that group. 

 

But, you know, 'Mericuh. 

For the last several years, I've looked as mental health as a scape goat Republicans use. They trot it out as an excuse following a mass shooting, but in practice vote against every bit of funding aimed in that direction. I don't doubt that mental illness plays a contributing role in some situations, but the shuttering of institutions, the reduction of funding for services, etc. makes me think they don't believe it is a core problem. Watch actions not words.

[purbeast]

I wanted to bring up something that I have not really heard anyone discuss and I am genuinely wondering about this...

 

Why is body armor available to the general public?  Why is that something you can walk into a store and just buy?

[Llevron]

9 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I wanted to bring up something that I have not really heard anyone discuss and I am genuinely wondering about this...

 

Why is body armor available to the general public?  Why is that something you can walk into a store and just buy?

 

Curious about this as well. This would help things too. If this wasn't the case, the one in buffalo would have been stopped by the guard there. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

57 minutes ago, Burgold said:

For the last several years, I've looked as mental health as a scape goat Republicans use. They trot it out as an excuse following a mass shooting, but in practice vote against every bit of funding aimed in that direction. I don't doubt that mental illness plays a contributing role in some situations, but the shuttering of institutions, the reduction of funding for services, etc. makes me think they don't believe it is a core problem. Watch actions not words.

 

Great points.  I do believe mental illness plays a big role in all of this, but the for the party that has long touted itself as the "responsibility party," the Republicans are now the "shift the blame party."   

[Larry]

2 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Th

 

Last I heard, 82% of NRA members support closing the "gun show loophole".  

[TheGoodBits]

I just wanted point out that military style, semi automatic rifles were not widely available to the public until the last 20 years or so. Since then, sales of semi automatic rifles have skyrocketed. And there’s a direct correlation between the availability of this kind of gun, the usage of this kind of gun in mass shootings, and how deadly these mass shootings are.
 

And as you can see in other countries who have experienced tragedies and reacted accordingly, we have a choice about whether we want these guns to be easily available to the public. 

[FrFan]

 

[Berggy9598]

Not sure if anyone has seen this movie, but I've been thinking quite a bit about We Need To Talk About Kevin. While gun nuts suggest everything from God to the return of the "traditional family structure" as a magical cure for antisocial personality disorder, as far as I know there isn't a whole lot that can be done about severe cases. Adam Lanza was diagnosed as a young kid if I'm not mistaken, so when they turn 18, why can't HIPAA be circumvented as far as it concerns the purchasing of AR-15s? There's no way this kid had access to the same medical care as Lanza, but from what I've read you don't need to be a medical professional to see there's a very good chance this is a kid born with APD. Why can APD not be a hard no red flag when it comes to purchasing AR-15s (ideally any type of fire arm but baby steps)?

[CobraCommander]

gregg Abbott just said it’s not an issue with ar-15s being sold to minors but a mental health issue. Which they won’t do anything about, so this will continue.

Edited May 25, 2022 by CobraCommander

[purbeast]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1529521455905460224?s=20&t=ik8g5P8jvihzaPyLs8mFqA

Edited May 25, 2022 by purbeast

[gbear]

Amanda Gorman's words are terrifying beautiful.

 

“Schools scared to death. The truth is, one education under desks, Stooped low from bullets; That plunge when we ask Where our children Shall live & how & if,” wrote the 23-year-old poet.

 

“It takes a monster to kill children. But to watch monsters kill children again and again and do nothing isn’t just insanity – it’s inhumanity,” Gorman wrote.

 

“The truth is, one nation under guns.

“What might we be if only we tried. What might we become if only we’d listen.”

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

16 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Mandatory background checks for any firearm, not just "assault weapons", are gonna be infinitely more effective then nailing down what actually is an "assault weapon".  That discussion on that definition has come up before more as a muddying of conversation to help kill time then actually address anything. 

 

Federal law already requires background checks for all gun sales by licensed gun dealers.  It's the online/gun show sales loophole that really needs to be addressed.  I'd be ok for requiring purchase permits for all semi-automatic rifles/guns, in all states. 

 

In NC, it's only required for a handgun and is managed through each county's Sheriff's dept., and in NC you have to sign a mental health release form in front of a notary (at the Sheriff's dept.) authorizing the release of any court documents that would show you are prohibited from purchasing a firearm due to not being mentally stable.  

 

Another problem is each state is different on their gun laws.  It needs to be universal, everything (from purchasing, owning, etc.).  

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

@TheGoodBits I'm not against a buy back program, I'm jus concerned a lot of folks will jus use that money to buy upgraded guns by trading in their old ones. Call me cynical, but I have no idea how to stop that.

 

There is an estimated 20 million semi-automatic assault rifles in the U.S. (as of 2021), our federal government is not going to offer anything as high as the other poster suggested ($2000) as that would come to 40 billion dollars if everyone participated.  

 

And if there is another assault rifle ban, most likely it will grandfather in those that legally purchased them due to the number already in circulation legally.  

[youngestson]

2 hours ago, TheGoodBits said:

I just wanted point out that military style, semi automatic rifles were not widely available to the public until the last 20 years or so. Since then, sales of semi automatic rifles have skyrocketed. And there’s a direct correlation between the availability of this kind of gun, the usage of this kind of gun in mass shootings, and how deadly these mass shootings are.
 

And as you can see in other countries who have experienced tragedies and reacted accordingly, we have a choice about whether we want these guns to be easily available to the public. 

Yes and no to semi-auto not being available 20 years ago.

 

They have been available since I was a kid (I'm 56). M1s, M14s, an occasional AR. But what's changed is the interest in them has shifted from a relatively small group of hobbyist types to wide spread fascination/obsession with them. They've become a totem of conservative virtue signaling, thus all the right-wing types posing for Christmas cards with their family decked out like they're defending the Embassy Compound during Tet.

 

Considering how heated and extreme all political discourse has become I can't see any way we as a society step back from that cliff anytime soon. 

 

An irony which is becoming more and more inevitable is that the NRA's extremism an inflexibility is seeming to lead down the road where murders and massacres become so commonplace that the final reaction against gun ownership will be more extreme than anything they could have dreamed of. 

[Renegade7]

3 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

There is an estimated 20 million semi-automatic assault rifles in the U.S. (as of 2021), our federal government is not going to offer anything as high as the other poster suggested ($2000) as that would come to 40 billion dollars if everyone participated.  

 

And if there is another assault rifle ban, most likely it will grandfather in those that legally purchased them due to the number already in circulation legally.  

 

Exactly, I respect Australia for doing that, but we aren't Australia...

[bcl05]

 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

7 hours ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Why don't they just add something to the right to bear arms....sure bear your arms but it must be with a gun from when the constitution was written. Im a moderate that leans conservative if abortion can be so easily back and forth law wise no reason why guns and the gun debate can't be, no reason for anyone to have an AR-15 in their home period, the fact that you can just go buy one without any mental health or background check is insane.

 

Not necessarily true on no reason for anyone to have an assault rifle in their home.  They are tactical style rifles and effective for home defense, depending on your preference.  Some people prefer shotguns, others handguns and some assault rifles.

 

Example, if you own an pump action 12 gauge as home defense, it has a significant advantage at close range due to the spread of the buckshot.  Downside is holding only 3-5 shells (on average) and doing significant property damage, and not being useful at longer range. 

 

An assault rifle, with a 20-30 round clip, even if the caliber is .223, allows you to fire off warning shots, hopefully to deter the intruder, while having plenty of ammo and stopping power if they choose to engage you.  It also can cause less property damage.  

 

They serve a purpose, whether you disagree with that purpose or not.  As I pointed out to Renegade, federal law requires background checks for all firearms sold at a gun dealer.  The gun show/online sales loophole needs to be addressed.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[CjSuAvE22]

55 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

 

An assault rifle, with a 20-30 round clip, even if the caliber is .223, allows you to fire off warning shots, hopefully to deter the intruder, while having plenty of ammo and stopping power if they choose to engage you.  It also can cause less property damage.  

 

 

I dunno I think you could do the same with a hand gun.

[The Evil Genius]

 

[Hooper]

3 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

gregg Abbott just said it’s not an issue with ar-15s being sold to minors but a mental health issue. Which they won’t do anything about, so this will continue.

 

I guess other countries don't have mental health issues, or porn, or first-person shooter games, or social media.

 

Wait, they do.

 

What they don't have are easy access to firearms or mass shootings.

 

Hmmm, could those things be connected?

 

Nah. Better to get teachers guns and body armor!