Springfield Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Tshile, I agree with you. I think that the mental illness argument is a cop out. Nobody who makes the mental illness argument can support it or any where near an explanation of how it could even possibly work. Plus, by my judgement it would be exponentially easier to repeal the second amendment, go house to house and take away everybody's guns, dismantle all of the gun making facilities, and make it nearly impossible to get any new guns into the country... Than it would be to come up with rules to an invisible, subjective, ever changing and evolving set of mental illnesses, identify people who both exhibit symptoms and do not exhibit symptoms, make it so those rules do not violate their civil rights and keep them from killing mass amounts of people randomly. Because taking away the guns is easier... if your goal is to make sure mass murders don't happen. Again. I like guns and I don't want to lose the ability to own any myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I think that the mental illness argument is a cop out. Nobody who makes the mental illness argument can support it or any where near an explanation of how it could even possibly work. It is and it isn't. Like many things in our country, we all want to have it both ways. Jumbo made a crack about how much money we spend on mental health compared to fireworks. Our actions don't match our rhetoric. Additionally, any honest argument for mental health in this issue implies tracking mental health... and, as a country, I don't see us being OK with it. You mentioned it earlier, where do you draw the line? If you have severe depression you can't have a gun? Ok, what about... autism? Retardation... etc etc. Now, those of you who either have children with issues or work in the field probably read that and see how ridiculously uneducated on the issue I am to be lumping things together like that, but my point is that you're going to face that barrier when pitching this to the nation... our nation is dumb on subjects we claim to understand, much less subjects we admit we don't understand. The whole conversation will be a mess... Maybe I should have started with: It is but it doesn't have to be, but it probably always will be. So what do you do? Not very many options here. Move out of the US? Arm yourself? Pray to whatever higher power you believe in that it doesn't happen to you? Do nothing? Not very good options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilandil Tasardur Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I often feel that, no matter how much we may want to look to other nations for answers, we can't, because of our nature and our size. For example: The UK banned firearms. And it really worked. But the UK doesn't share an enormous contiguous border with Mexico across which firearms are continuously exchanged illegally in both directions. As a Mexican American, I want nothing more than for the US to decide it'd rather help Mexico become Canada than keep shoving its dick into the Middle East. But it isn't going to happen. So we might as well get used to drugs and guns being a huge problem in our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 or... legalize drugs and completely cut out the business for cartels in mexico and drug dealers/gangs in the US. we're not ready for that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 And the inevitable conspiracy theories begin: FALSE FLAG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W73CuwTrFXI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 And the inevitable conspiracy theories begin: FALSE FLAG Little later than usual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 i used to think those people in those videos were nuts. i'm now convinced they're actually just clever, it's the people that believe the videos that are nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 And the inevitable conspiracy theories begin: FALSE FLAG sooooo, the paranoid gun nuts are saying that the paranoid nut who shot those people didnt actually shoot them? and, i'm a retard if believe it? and nobodys 'taking their guns'?? well, in that case, thank the lord! sooo......guess we can close this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passepartout Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Really need to focus on the victims and their families. Who's own lives are ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 As a Mexican American, I want nothing more than for the US to decide it'd rather help Mexico become Canada than keep shoving its dick into the Middle East. Dude, I've been saying this for soooo long. Years. I actually lost a friendship with someone who felt very strongly that we should allow Mexico to handle their own affairs, yet saw no problem with us going into the Middle East at the drop of a hat. If we put half of the resources we've spent in the Middle East towards helping Mexico solve their problems we'd be much better off for it, IMO. But that'll never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I wonder what the critical mass of these tragedies we as a nation are going to have to reach before our population and government realize we need to start funding, researching and treating mental illness like we do "normal" health issues, like diabetes, heart disease, etc.? When are we going to start putting more funding toward getting more mental health professionals into the field? Guess I'll have to sit back and wait for the next mass school shooting live tweeted on an ****ing GoPro before I can start asking for more funding for mental health resources to send clients in my program to. Sorry, total personal rant. This is just so frustrating. Condolences to the loved ones of the murdered journalists. No words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 And the inevitable conspiracy theories begin: FALSE FLAG Trump supporter. Guaranteed. i used to think those people in those videos were nuts. i'm now convinced they're actually just clever... "Clever" is not on my list of adjectives describing that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 "clever" tshile? Really? That loser? "I didn't see it live because I didn't get up today until after noon" LMAO. What a fail at life loser. No wonder he's so pissed off. Look at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Predicto, you may want to put a warning on that post for NSFW because of language. Holy cow, I had to turn that idiot off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Trump supporter. Guaranteed. "Clever" is not on my list of adjectives describing that guy. "clever" tshile? Really? That loser? "I didn't see it live because I didn't get up today until after noon" LMAO. What a fail at life loser. No wonder he's so pissed off. Look at him. Ok, I didn't watch *that* particular video. But I've been sent and watched a few specifically on this issue, and I've seen a few others. My cleverness comment was more about how, generally speaking, they're able to put together this long explanation about how there is this conspiracy. To a reasonable person it doesn't hold up, they can poke holes in it, they can see where they manipulate things and leave out key details, etc. But to plenty of people it becomes this somehow justified explanation about how things are not what they seem. I used to jsut think the people making the videos are crazy, but I now think there's an 'industry' (for lack of a better word) of people making these youtube videos not because they believe it, but because they know they can easily dupe quite a few people into believing it. There's a lot of them... false flag, race war, the government trying to do whatever it is they're trying to do... i assumed this was just another one of those... their cleverness is in their ability to dupe, and rile up, idiots... it's a low bar, i know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Are you saying it worked on you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I read the strain theory article. Makes sense in a lot of ways, even to a ridiculous degree of accuracy. I'm friends with a large portion of my high school graduating class on facebook. There's a select group of conspiracy nutters who think everything is a hoax and the world is set up against the common man to subdue and "control" him. Your typical Ron Paul/Libertarian/Alex Jones fan club members. All of them have a consistent theme in regards to the choices they made. None of them bothered to get educated after graduation or pursue careers that allow upwards mobility. Stuck in dead end jobs and blaming everyone but themselves for their own failures. Consistently unhappy and in a state of paranoia. I wonder if anyone has ever compiled data on conspiracy theorists and their mental health/socio-economic backgrounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Are you saying it worked on you ? ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 What in the... I might need a beer. Seriously Vishal, that was one of the strangest rants I have ever read. Confusing part to me is that you remain friends with these people yet trash talk them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I read the strain theory article. Makes sense in a lot of ways, even to a ridiculous degree of accuracy. I'm friends with a large portion of my high school graduating class on facebook. There's a select group of conspiracy nutters who think everything is a hoax and the world is set up against the common man to subdue and "control" him. Your typical Ron Paul/Libertarian/Alex Jones fan club members. All of them have a consistent theme in regards to the choices they made. None of them bothered to get educated after graduation or pursue careers that allow upwards mobility. Stuck in dead end jobs and blaming everyone but themselves for their own failures. Consistently unhappy and in a state of paranoia. I wonder if anyone has ever compiled data on conspiracy theorists and their mental health/socio-economic backgrounds. This is on point. A lot of it comes down to pure narcissism. They can't look in the mirror and see their own problems, it's everyone and everything else. This fits the ron paul and alex jones nut bags exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 What in the... I might need a beer. Seriously Vishal, that was one of the strangest rants I have ever read. Confusing part to me is that you remain friends with these people yet trash talk them. That made you want a beer? You are one weird person. These people are an endless source of entertainment and amusement. Between them, Free Republic and Vaccine Resistance Movement, I may qualify for a second PhD in Conspiracy Nutbags. This is on point. A lot of it comes down to pure narcissism. They can't look in the mirror and see their own problems, it's everyone and everything else. This fits the ron paul and alex jones nut bags exactly I automatically assume nutbag whenever someone tells me that they hold Ron Paul in high regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl05 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I wonder what the critical mass of these tragedies we as a nation are going to have to reach before our population and government realize we need to start funding, researching and treating mental illness like we do "normal" health issues, like diabetes, heart disease, etc.? When are we going to start putting more funding toward getting more mental health professionals into the field? Guess I'll have to sit back and wait for the next mass school shooting live tweeted on an ****ing GoPro before I can start asking for more funding for mental health resources to send clients in my program to. Sorry, total personal rant. This is just so frustrating. Condolences to the loved ones of the murdered journalists. No words. If Sandy Hook didn't reach the threshold of making real and substantive change that makes a difference, nothing will. I've given up hoping for real change. I am so tired of the mental health vs. gun control debate. Why not both? Guns are so easy to get and so easy to kill with. I think most people think there are steps we can take (background checks, closing loopholes, at least), that might slow the access that angry people have. Also, mental health providers remain hugely overworked and underpaid, and there has been very little to address this. I'm a physician (in an under-funded specialty, not as bad as psychiatry), and I see surveys all the time about average salary/average work day/average patient load etc. Psychiatrists routinely make less than almost any other physician, deal with more red tape, get less insurance reimbursement, have less academic support, and report greater workday stress. I suspect it is worse for non-MD mental health providers. Is it any wonder that very few people choose to go into it? ACA took some small but good steps to address this, but really not close to enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I find it hard to believe that the "mentally ill" people will voluntarily allow themselves to be treated... which is what you would need to even think about stopping them from committing mass murders. How can you help those that don't want help. I don't recall any of these people attempting to seek out help so that they wouldn't hurt anyone. I don't follow these things closely, but these killers don't strike me as the voluntary head shrink types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenaa Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I refuse to watch coverage of these events or rants of conspiracy theorists. I refuse to make their efforts worth while by doing exactly what they want me to do: Watch Them. Don't participate in validating their intentions!! The only way to stop this is to stop making the actions relevant. Won't stop it 100%, There will always be crazies who kill just for the sake of killing, but most of these are so obviously actions for attention. We'd be well served by restricting the presses ability to cover these types of events. We need to take away the appeal. Mental health isn't the problem and guns aren't the problem. They are participants. Take away guns, and that nut has a go pro mounted to the hood of his car as he runs them over on live TV. People have suffered mental health issues since the dawn of time without seeking out ways to have their deeds reach infamy. How do you propose we effectively identify everyone who has some time of deficiency that might lead them to this type of behavior? It's not possible. We are now a hyper accessible society that displays an almost impossible urge to become participators in these events by focusing in. Guns and Mental health seem like easy targets, but the reality is they are not what is fueling this type of behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I find it hard to believe that the "mentally ill" people will voluntarily allow themselves to be treated... which is what you would need to even think about stopping them from committing mass murders. Again, explain to me how the shooter in this case fits the traditional definition of what we mean when we say "mentally ill?" He seems to be a reasonably successful - if difficult - on air tv reporter/personality. I mean, I'm sure he was a narcissist, but you kind of have to be a narcissist to pursue a career in tv. We seem to classify mental health into two things: Paranoid schizophrenia and everything else. Only a few of these shooters seem to clearly fall into that first category. Are we really going to start pushing for mandatory treatment for depression, which I'm guessing half the people on this board have been diagnosed with at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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