Yahoo: Gunman Kills Virginia TV News Reporter, Cameraman on Air

[tshile]

Good read in the post.

 

 

WP: American exceptionalism and the ‘exceptionally American’ problem of mass shootings

 

I have a couple of problems with this...

 

The first being the labeling of this incident as a 'mass shooting.' It was targeted, the people shot were chosen (except for the one being interviewed) for a very specific and personal reason. The shooter didn't go after anyone else (except for the cops.) It just doesn't fit my idea of a mass shooting. It seems weird to use the label... we don't call shootings in the street between gangs mass shootings, even when it kills innocent bystanders...

 

Second, this idea that the problem is the notion of the American Dream. It just comes across as something that fits with the 'everyone gets a trophy' mentality. As if the rest of us are supposed to reconsider whether preaching hard work and sacrifice for a long term payoff as if it was the breeding grounds for mass shootings. If I were to guess at a cultural mentality that was causing this, it wouldn't be the idea that you will be better off than your parents if you just work hard... It would be this mentality that I see in way too many people that... your problems are the fault of someone other than you. And you can see this mentality in his work track record, you can see it in his manifesto. He's obviously on the extreme end of things, but this mentality is ridiculously prevelant these days. Lack of personal responsibility, your problems are the fault of other people or some 'system'.   You can see this mentality and how its grown in our culture over time. I see it in the news, I see it with our politicians, I see it with our football team, I see it on this message board, and I see it all the time at work.  A key measurement I have for any individual that I work with is: Do you take responsibility for your actions, or do you try to excuse them by finger pointing? More often than not most people I encounter fall into the later category, and I see a lot of problems caused by it.

 

I don't know... I'm certainly not a criminal justice professor, or a mental health professional, but that article just doesn't make sense to me.

[grego]

He was a racist?

 

 

i go the other way- i think he had mental issues (extreme paranoia- paranoid personality disorder) and the racial angle (just like the homophobia claim) is just how the paranoia manifests itself, if that makes sense. 

[HOF44]

I thought the article made a point to show that the failure to reach the status they thought they should attain was externalized and blamed on those around them. I thought it kind of summed up the entitled trophy upbringing meets real world realities. 

[zoony]

Good read in the post.

 

 

WP: American exceptionalism and the ‘exceptionally American’ problem of mass shootings

 

Good read in the post.

 

 

WP: American exceptionalism and the ‘exceptionally American’ problem of mass shootings

 

 

Good article.  I thought a lot of it could explain the Ron Paul movement as well.  Especially this part

 

"The connection begins with something called “strain theory,” developed by sociologist Richard Merton in the 1930s. According to the theory, Lankford says, “deviance occurs because individuals who strive to meet culturally defined goals lack the means to do so.”"

[tshile]

I thought the article made a point to show that the failure to reach the status they thought they should attain was externalized and blamed on those around them. I thought it kind of summed up the entitled trophy upbringing meets real world realities. 

 

That's fair. I read it with a different tone the first time... it came across as excusing more than explaining, but I see what you mean now.

 

This quote stood out to me the most

 

 

“The priority of fame is more common and stronger in the U.S. than perhaps in any other culture in the world,” Lankford said. And at the same time, “the distinction between fame and infamy seems to be disappearing.”

 

Which goes back to the oldest complaint about these situations - we give it so much attention, then act surprised when another person desperate for attention does the same thing (although they often try to one-up previous incidents; in this case posting his own footage of the shooting on twitter...)

 

Unfortunately getting rid of sensationalized news just isn't an option. Having the gun control debate isn't an option. There's no real traction for as massive overhaul in how we value mental health issues and treatment. 

 

Some sort of progressive-like movement to boycott media when something like this is probably the best option, but it's not going to happen. Our society is just overly invested (and probably in an unhealthy way) with knee-jerk opinions and reaction, both in reading other people's and broadcasting our own.

[Predicto]

Nothing you say justifies murder. I just don't get what your point is relevant to this horrific incident.

 

 

His point was very minor, about how some workplaces can be difficult.   He didn't attempt to justify murder at all.   Everyone seems to be turning their frustration with this shooter against DM72 and putting words into his mouth.  

Dm72 is like you don't know these crazy people what they're going through you don't know them

I do

I do

This week is pretty bad and we all go through bad spells but this is different. This guy was paranoid and blamed misfortunes on race or homophobia. Why would we want to see his perspective or understand the plight of a man who was clearly misguided and paranoid and quick to blame problems on society instead of himself? Tell me why.

 

 

 

So we can help prevent this kind of thing from happening again?   Just a guess.

[Mr. Sinister]

Good article. I thought a lot of it could explain the Ron Paul movement as well. Especially this part

"The connection begins with something called “strain theory,” developed by sociologist Richard Merton in the 1930s. According to the theory, Lankford says, “deviance occurs because individuals who strive to meet culturally defined goals lack the means to do so.”"

I've always said that as a culture, we are as antisocial as we've ever been, and thats one of my theories as to why we have these problems. The internet and social media has contributed to that

[Predicto]

He was a racist?

 

 

Not really.  More like he was a paranoid headcase who believed everyone else was being racist toward him.  It's a fine distinction.  

[No Excuses]

what do you think the real issue is?

Easy gun laws that give insane people access to them. A culture that only pays lip service to "mental health". A culture that doesn't really even understand what mental illness is and is not willing to put in the time and money to educate about it or develop treatments. A society which in many ways stigmatizes mental illness which prevents people from receiving proper help.

[zoony]

Easy gun laws that give insane people access to them. A culture that only pays lip service to "mental health". A culture that doesn't really even understand what mental illness is and is not willing to put in the time and money to educate about it or develop treatments. A society which in many ways stigmatizes mental illness which prevents people from receiving proper help.

 

 

I actually think the Strain Theory from the WP fits better than any of what you write above, though those are clearly contributing factors.

 

I mean, is it hard to get a gun in Mexico?  Does Mexico take extra special care of their mentally ill?  Is Mexico known for all of these mass shootings?  (I mean, besides the drug cartel thing)

[No Excuses]

I actually think the Strain Theory from the WP fits better than any of what you write above, though those are clearly contributing factors.

I mean, is it hard to get a gun in Mexico? Does Mexico take extra special care of their mentally ill? Is Mexico known for all of these mass shootings? (I mean, besides the drug cartel thing)

I haven't read the WaPo article yet but I will soon and post my thoughts.

[tshile]

I actually think the Strain Theory from the WP fits better than any of what you write above, though those are clearly contributing factors.

 

I mean, is it hard to get a gun in Mexico?  Does Mexico take extra special care of their mentally ill?  Is Mexico known for all of these mass shootings?  (I mean, besides the drug cartel thing)

 

Does strain theory provide anything actionable towards the problem?

 

I'm coming around to it the more you guys talk about it... I still have a hard time because I just have never had such a bad time in life that I considered killing a random person (much less many random people...)  and that's not because I haven't had bad moments in my life...

[zoony]

Does strain theory provide anything actionable towards the problem?

 

I'm coming around to it the more you guys talk about it... I still have a hard time because I just have never had such a bad time in life that I considered killing a random person (much less many random people...)  and that's not because I haven't had bad moments in my life...

 

 

Well I think the point is that it manifests itself in different ways.  Only a very small percentage (the mentally ill) lash out in this way.  The author's point was the mentally ill in other countries don't do this.

 

It was an interesting article, to me the theory that most closely identifies the problem that I've seen to date.  Though, I'm far from an expert

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Well I think the point is that it manifests itself in different ways.  Only a very small percentage (the mentally ill) lash out in this way.  The author's point was the mentally ill in other countries don't do this.

 

It was an interesting article, to me the theory that most closely identifies the problem that I've seen to date.  Though, I'm far from an expert

 

The "mentally ill" is such a broad discussion. I think I'm the only person in my house on Christmas Eve who does not take an anti-depressant or an anti-anxiety med. I don't consider everyone in my family "mentally ill," though, I guess, my definition they are.

[Predicto]

Does strain theory provide anything actionable towards the problem?

 

I'm coming around to it the more you guys talk about it... I still have a hard time because I just have never had such a bad time in life that I considered killing a random person (much less many random people...)  and that's not because I haven't had bad moments in my life...

 

 

I think that it only affects a very small percentage of people that severely - but in a country of 320 million people, even a small percentage is a huge number of people.  

[grego]

Well I think the point is that it manifests itself in different ways. Only a very small percentage (the mentally ill) lash out in this way. The author's point was the mentally ill in other countries don't do this.

They don't do what, specifically? Kill people?

[Springfield]

You know, sitting here in the bathroom something occurred to me.

We are just going to have to start taking away guns.

Why? Because we will NEVER solve a "mental health" issue, and there are thousands. You can cry mental health from the highest mountaintop, and you might even be right. You will never save lives trying to figure out mental health though.

First, you'll have to decide what mental health actually is. Good luck. Depression? Anxiety? Retardation? Dyslexia? Bipolar disorder? All of the countless other things that fall under the mental health umbrella. Now which one of those things actually cause someone to shoot up a school of children and which ones don't? How severe does ones bipolar disorder have to be? Who will measure it in any other way tha subjectively?

Then, once you figure out the appropriate level of bipolar disorder to cause a mass murder you'll have to identify people with that subjective level of invisible sickness. Good luck.

Claiming you can save lives by treating the mentally ill is a cop out.

The OLNY way to save people from mass killings is by taking away guns. And that absolutely sucks.

[Predicto]

They don't do what, specifically? Kill people?

 

 

Do mass shooting of strangers primarily for fame and publicity, at least not nearly as often as it happens here.   That Anders Brievik dude had a big one in Norway, but mostly, there are a lot less of this type of incident in other Western countries.  

 

 

[tshile]

Do mass shooting of strangers primarily for fame and publicity, at least not nearly as often as it happens here.   That Anders Brievik dude had a big one in Norway, but mostly, there are a lot less of this type of incident in other Western countries.  

 

 

 

Haven't most of these countries outright banned guns?

 

I don't believe pointing to them and saying "they have a lot less mass shootings" is really saying anything.

 

edit: i guess not... just england? looks like the rest are heavily regulated. so... nevermind.

[zoony]

You know, sitting here in the bathroom 

 

 

 

How's that going?  

[grego]

Do mass shooting of strangers primarily for fame and publicity, at least not nearly as often as it happens here. That Anders Brievik dude had a big one in Norway, but mostly, there are a lot less of this type of incident in other Western countries.

I gotcha.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Decided to watch the videos last night.

Watched the live news shot a few times, because it's not extremely gruesome visually. The shock of the anchorwoman when they cut back to the studio is indescribable.

Got through about 5 to 10 seconds of the POV, but with him aiming the gun and pulling it back down like that, I had to turn it off. They were so focused that they didn't even notice him.

[Springfield]

How's that going?

Everything came out alright, I think.

[tshile]

You know, sitting here in the bathroom something occurred to me.

We are just going to have to start taking away guns.

 

 

It wasn't too long ago that I came to the same conclusion.

 

But here's the problem... you're not going to take away guns.

 

There's reasons for it. Zoony has alluded to the founding of the country and the mentality that comes from that. There's also the issue that gun manufacturing is a huge business in this country, and you're not going to get them to agree to the idea that our citizens can't have guns... So, you're going to fight the NRA and the individual gun manufacturers (instead of just fighting the NRA, and the money the gun manufacturers give the NRA). There are other reasons too.

 

In addition to that there's the constitutional issue. I'm not sure how far you can actually go in banning guns before SCOTUS says no...

 

Even then, if you ban guns, we're still going to have guns. Unless you propose going door to door and removing them? How's SCOTUS going to feel about that? How are the american people going to react to that?

 

Even if you remove guns... We can't keep illegal drugs out of this country, I imagine guns will flow over the border as well; we know there will be a market for them.

 

Regardless of the correctness in the answer, it's not actionable. At least not now. Hard to imagine it'll ever be.

 

(Unless you want to just ban some guns, at which point this becomes a different discussion and I'd say... he could have done the same thing with a hunting rifle/shotgun, so good luck with that.)

[zoony]

Everything came out alright, I think.

Good. Beans and lentils are key