PF Chang Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Bathrooms: Use the one you have the physical equipment to use, no matter what gender you are/identify with. Problem solved. Sports? You play on the team that matches your equipment. For contact sports it raises questions - MtF trans who is an MMA fighter. There are years of hormone therapy required but I don't think anyone is certain when it comes to her potential advantage from experiencing male puberty. I don't blame Ronda Rousey for being hesitant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox I can't wrap my head around the issue. I have friends that are having their first kid (which my wife and I are too) and they've said some weird things that I just don't understand. There's a whole movement of people that have decided you should not give you child a gender specific name, or you should give them toys for both genders, and otherwise avoid anything that's gender specific. Supposedly this lets them find themselves without being "forced" into identifying with a specific gender. I don't understand it, at what point are you actually creating the problem instead of helping? Isn't it possible you're just confusing a kid that would otherwise not have had any issues with gender identification? The whole thing is weird to me. I don't understand why anyone thinks it's appropriate to let a 5 year old decide whether it is a boy or a girl. But I suppose that's easy for me to say, I never went through anything like this... I don't recall making the decision to "like girls" or "be a boy" when I was 5, but I suppose it's a little different when the way you feel doesn't go along with the way everyone else around you feels... Yeah that drives me nuts. I agree that's creating a problem rather than helping. There aren't reliable statistics on the % of transgender people in a given population but an estimate looks to be less than 1%. There is no reason for parents to behave as if 9 out of 10 kids will experience gender dysphoria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Technically we all have the equipment to use the women's restroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 The answer is to love your child and support them. Easier said than done. And damn near every parent justifies their decisions by saying they do this. Whether it's yelling, spanking, some other form of punishment, vaccines, homeschooling, etc. It's used a blanket statement to justify an individuals preferred parenting techniques. It's a weird time to have a child. The issues around being gay, transgender, aspergers, autism, obesity, etc. I want to know the 'right' answers and do what's best, the problem is the water is so muddy I don't even know which direction to head much less what the best thing to do is. Listening to people in the same situation as me, I can't help but wonder if they're the ones that are insane or if it's me. I suppose I'll default to being the type of parent my parents were. It seems to have worked well enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Yeah that drives me nuts. I agree that's creating a problem rather than helping. There aren't reliable statistics on the % of transgender people in a given population but an estimate looks to be less than 1%. There is no reason for parents to behave as if 9 out of 10 kids will experience gender dysphoria. Right, and in addition to that I don't believe there's any reliable information on the cause. I've seen everything from genetics, to environment, to trauma. I just can't fathom the idea of letting a 5 year old decide their gender... I have a hard enough time with the idea that you "decide" your gender, i fall back on... it's kind of how you're born...? To extend that to letting a 5 year old pick? I don't think I'm going to let my 5 year pick what he eats on a regular basis for dinner, much less whether he's a boy or a girl... even if I do come to accept that it is something you "choose" But then I watch a 60 minutes special on a family that went through this. I listen to the parents story, I watch them cry, I hear the raw emotion when they explain it, and I can't help but think I'm just a giant ignorant asshole judging other people because they're not like me. Or assuming they're "flawed" or whatever it is I'm doing (I don't know, you get accused of so many different things by some people it's hard to keep track.) And then I realize that I have a firm belief that most people are not very smart, so I can't help but wonder if the parents were the root of the issue and 60 minutes (which is where I saw it, but you can use any media outlet) is just presenting the story from one side to create a certain narrative. Which is all to say - yeah i'm thoroughly confused. I hope none of my children have to deal with it, because I don't have a ****ing clue as to what to do or how to help them. I'm having a kid in 3 1/2 weeks. Realizing that is scary and it sucks. So I just hope I don't have to deal with it, mostly for the sake of the kid... but I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I'm also scared for my own sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Which is all to say - yeah i'm thoroughly confused. I hope none of my children have to deal with it, because I don't have a ****ing clue as to what to do or how to help them. I'm having a kid in 3 1/2 weeks. Realizing that is scary and it sucks. So I just hope I don't have to deal with it, mostly for the sake of the kid... but I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I'm also scared for my own sake. It gets simpler once they are here....and the exhaustion sets in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 It gets simpler once they are here....and the exhaustion sets in. I was planning on playing golf and brewing beer that week since i'm off work. What are you saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 It gets simpler once they are here....and the exhaustion sets in. Yep I was planning on playing golf and brewing beer that week since i'm off work. What are you saying? I was alarmed when my 4 year old boy started playing with his sisters dolls and stuffed animals. Then I realized I was just being an overprotective parent and he was just a little kid. It didn't mean he was anything but a kid. Hopefully I will raise him to be a good, responsible, and God fearing man who will love and provide for his own family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Yep I was alarmed when my 4 year old boy started playing with his sisters dolls and stuffed animals. Then I realized I was just being an overprotective parent and he was just a little kid. It didn't mean he was anything but a kid. Hopefully I will raise him to be a good, responsible, and God fearing man who will love and provide for his own family. Better watch out....my daughter has a boy in her class (1st grade), who's a Brony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Don't worry about it so much. As long as the parents don't freak out, the kids almost always turn out just fine, whatever their orientation or identity. Better watch out....my daughter has a boy in her class (1st grade), who's a Brony. Oh god - except for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Is it just me or does anybody else the whole transgender thing this way: Transgender movement seeks to make it normal/acceptable to switch genders by divorcing gender from biology. This is self-defeating because the inevitable outcome is the destruction of gender altogether. This is why it is most surprising to me that LSF is against it, because that outcome seems to be her goal. Once gender is divorced from biological sex, there is no longer man or woman since they are descriptive of the latter, no longer the former. That probably doesn't make a lot of sense, because this topic by its nature introduces chaos. Trans persons are trying to get rid of sex/biology, not gender. They are reinforcing gender. [edited to add] Trans say that sex/biology is not real, only gender is real and is how one identifies is the reality. They reinforce the patriarchal gender roles: boys like masculine things, girls like feminine things. Masculine and feminine are patriarchal constructs that have nothing to do with sex/biology. All things masculine are superior to all things feminine which are subordinate. That is the way our current system is set up. Radical feminists are gender critical and are trying to abolish gender so that we are all treated as equal humans without superiority and subordination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PF Chang Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Better watch out....my daughter has a boy in her class (1st grade), who's a Brony. Yeah ya gotta be careful there. The disease appears to be harmless in children, but the symptoms of adult Bronyism are unwashed hair, extreme obesity, and fedoras. Really chilling stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Don't worry about it so much. As long as the parents don't freak out, the kids almost always turn out just fine, whatever their orientation or identity. Oh god - except for that! Yeah ya gotta be careful there. The disease appears to be harmless in children, but the symptoms of adult Bronyism are unwashed hair, extreme obesity, and fedoras. Really chilling stuff. Clearly that kids Parents have failed him. I'm *this* close to calling CPS. Part of me wonders if he's really into it, or just pretends to be friends with my daughter. She's seriously obsessed with My Little Pony. But according to her, he knows the same story lines she does, and the characters. so yeah....clearly a failure on the part of his parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grhqofb5 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 I've written before about the Cotton Ceiling. I suggest that if you think that males who want to be women but keep their male genitalia so they can continue to have sex and especially with Lesbians, you will have your eyes opened. Many of these men are "late transitioners" who have married, fathered children, and had traditional male careers. Most are not opting for surgery because they like to use their male genitalia for sex. I'm betting that Bruce doesn't have surgery, he likes having sex with women and will continue to do so. Having sex with Lesbians is their ultimate validation that they are women. They are not happy that Lesbians won't have sex with them. I know a male from a female, and this Lesbian won't have sex with a trans woman. Most Lesbians won't either. Two words: Cotton Ceiling I just broke into this thread, not gonna read the other posts but saw your on Jenner. What I found interesting was how he insisted that he was not gay and had only engaged in sex with women. But when asked how he would deal with future relationships (i.e. would he pursue men or women) his answer was that he wasn't sure. So if he's attracted to only women, why would he say that he's going to potentially pursue men in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Technically we all have the equipment to use the women's restroom You sit down anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Yep I was alarmed when my 4 year old boy started playing with his sisters dolls and stuffed animals. Then I realized I was just being an overprotective parent and he was just a little kid. It didn't mean he was anything but a kid. Hopefully I will raise him to be a good, responsible, and God fearing man who will love and provide for his own family. Mine carried a purse for over a year and did needlepoint. Then he started running with dad and uncles ,now he instructs in hurting folk and is a weapon. (and does needlepoint ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Every time I see the word "ilk" on here, I have to punch a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I just read all 4 pages of this............my thoughts: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacePenguin Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Trans say that sex/biology is not real, only gender is real and is how one identifies is the reality. They reinforce the patriarchal gender roles: boys like masculine things, girls like feminineSo, do you even know any actual trans people? Somehow, I really doubt it. You do seem to know a lot about these imaginary MTFs that are just in it to harass lesbians into having sex with them. I mean, that's such a great plan and all. :/They think biology isn't real?....lol. That's such a gross simplification, and to suggest you understand anything about what transgender people think seems odd. Things don't always go perfectly in the womb, and the human brain's development is heavily dependent on the amount of androgens it receives from the mother during a small window. There's a reason why these kids feel the need to express themselves as a certain gender at such an early age and it's not because of society or trauma, in most cases. Sometimes people are just born differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 This is something that's always fascinated me about human beings. Most don't like to be judged, yet they are ones who throw stones (not speaking on ES, here, just in a general sense). And everyone seems to care VERY deeply about other people's personal lives, which is a very interesting phenomenon in my eyes. Most of us probably do things that others would disapprove of for very reasons. Some may be tiny little quirky things, other large and truly different things. For instance, I love wrestling. People make fun of me because it's "fake" and I've always had this to say: I'm not telling you to like it, numbnuts, I'm saying I like it. I don't particularly care what you think of it, and I don't care that you think you have a great singing voice even though it's shattering glass. Good for you. I mean, sure, there are social issues that absolutely need to be taken care of. The bathroom thing is one of them. That needs to be looked into for both the person AND all other people. But what people do personally, as long as it's not harming others, is none of my business. And by harming others, I don't mean offending them. I mean serious stuff. It's just an interesting social experiment in life when these discussions pop up. And for the record, if you do judge people, more power to you. I don't care. This is just an observation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I mean, sure, there are social issues that absolutely need to be taken care of. The bathroom thing is one of them. That needs to be looked into for both the person AND all other people. But what people do personally, as long as it's not harming others, is none of my business. And by harming others, I don't mean offending them. I mean serious stuff. While I generally agree with you, I can't help but feel like in this case it's more than that though. The problems people are not bringing up aren't "ew you think you're a <gender you're not>", the problems are with what one group wants the other group to agree to do in the name of tolerance. We're now talking about allowing a young kid to use a bathroom for the opposite gender. Which now means all the other kids have to be brought into this - Why does tommy get to use the girls bathroom but the rest of us have to use the boys? The other girls now have to deal with him being in there. You now have to have this conversation with a bunch of young kids. The other kids now have to treat tommy like a girl. This isn't about judging people. It's about trying to understand an issue and trying to figure out what the best way forward is. As much as this may bother some hard core progressives, the trans kid isn't the only one to consider either, all the other kids matter too. What age do we start doing this? How do we do it? How much do we really know about the causes and the proposed ways of dealing with it, and their consequences? It seems like an important conversation to have. Writing off one side as judging isn't going to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 While I generally agree with you, I can't help but feel like in this case it's more than that though. The problems people are not bringing up aren't "ew you think you're a <gender you're not>", the problems are with what one group wants the other group to agree to do in the name of tolerance. We're now talking about allowing a young kid to use a bathroom for the opposite gender. Which now means all the other kids have to be brought into this - Why does tommy get to use the girls bathroom but the rest of us have to use the boys? The other girls now have to deal with him being in there. You now have to have this conversation with a bunch of young kids. The other kids now have to treat tommy like a girl. This isn't about judging people. It's about trying to understand an issue and trying to figure out what the best way forward is. As much as this may bother some hard core progressives, the trans kid isn't the only one to consider either, all the other kids matter too. What age do we start doing this? How do we do it? How much do we really know about the causes and the proposed ways of dealing with it, and their consequences? It seems like an important conversation to have. Writing off one side as judging isn't going to help. I don't think you understood what I said. I'm not writing anyone off. If you are judging, good for you. I was merely pointing out an interesting aspect to society. By the way, there's judging involved on both sides of the coin. I do it, too. I'm not trying to be holier than thou. It's what we as humans do. And it's SO interesting. And I'm not sure if you missed it or not, but I clearly said there are social issues that need to be taken care of, and even said bathrooms. In fact, that's what you quoted. So I'm not sure how you missed the mark by as much as you did as it pertains to what I said. I'll quote it again for you to see: I mean, sure, there are social issues that absolutely need to be taken care of. The bathroom thing is one of them. That needs to be looked into for both the person AND all other people. That is EXACTLY, word for word, what you said here: We're now talking about allowing a young kid to use a bathroom for the opposite gender. Which now means all the other kids have to be brought into this - Why does tommy get to use the girls bathroom but the rest of us have to use the boys? The other girls now have to deal with him being in there. You now have to have this conversation with a bunch of young kids. The other kids now have to treat tommy like a girl What is it that you're disagreeing with me on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I don't think you understood what I said. I'm not writing anyone off. If you are judging, good for you. I was merely pointing out an interesting aspect to society. By the way, there's judging involved on both sides of the coin. I do it, too. I'm not trying to be holier than thou. It's what we as humans do. And it's SO interesting. And I'm not sure if you missed it or not, but I clearly said there are social issues that need to be taken care of, and even said bathrooms. In fact, that's what you quoted. So I'm not sure how you missed the mark by as much as you did as it pertains to what I said. I'll quote it again for you to see: That is EXACTLY, word for word, what you said here: What is it that you're disagreeing with me on? Right, you said that, but you also said a bunch of stuff about judging. I haven't seen a whole lot of judging or being offended in this topic, on ES or elsewhere. I see a lot of questions about where to draw the line of being tolerant so that it doesn't come at the expense of the well being of other young children, trying to define those, etc. Not a bunch of people being offended, like your post seems to suggest. Maybe i'm just seeing things differently, or reading/viewing different news/conversations than you. This idea that it's full of judging and people need to stop worrying about being offended and start worrying about actual problems just seems inaccurate when it comes to this specific subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Right, you said that, but you also said a bunch of stuff about judging. I haven't seen a whole lot of judging or being offended in this topic, on ES or elsewhere. I see a lot of questions about where to draw the line of being tolerant so that it doesn't come at the expense of the well being of other young children, trying to define those, etc. Not a bunch of people being offended, like your post seems to suggest. Maybe i'm just seeing things differently, or reading/viewing different news/conversations than you. This idea that it's full of judging and people need to stop worrying about being offended and start worrying about actual problems just seems inaccurate when it comes to this specific subject. Oh, people are offended by this. There was a lot of debate in my neck of the woods on the matter. Two radio hosts were fired for their opinion on the matter. It's routinely discussed on the Opie and Jimmy show and there are callers who are all over people for the way they live their lives. This isn't just a me thing. It's out there. The stuff about judging was simply an observation in general. Not just this topic. Which I tried to make quite clear, guess I failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Trans persons are trying to get rid of sex/biology, not gender. They are reinforcing gender. [edited to add] Trans say that sex/biology is not real, only gender is real and is how one identifies is the reality. They reinforce the patriarchal gender roles: boys like masculine things, girls like feminine things. Masculine and feminine are patriarchal constructs that have nothing to do with sex/biology. All things masculine are superior to all things feminine which are subordinate. That is the way our current system is set up. Radical feminists are gender critical and are trying to abolish gender so that we are all treated as equal humans without superiority and subordination. Then you didn't read what I said carefully. I affirmed that they are not trying to get rid of gender, but rather their cause is self-defeating because the natural (or should I say unnatural? ) outcome is the loss of gender altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I don't think trans people are trying to get rid of anything. What they are trying to do is align their lifestyle with their perception. And, unless I'm way off in my understand of this (and I likely am), it seems like re-assignment surgeries are become less common, not more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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