Why Gruden got no honeymoon--

[nemocystem]

It goes well beyond his mismanagement of the QB he was hired to groom in the first place. He looks lost at most times, can't play call in the RZ, bull-headedly refuses to call certain plays for i dunno what reason (see RB screen when D had obviously pinned their ears back) unless he's just out of options...

His PC's are inflammatory, we watched the team give up on him vs Dallass, & i generally don't hear a lot of glowing endorsements coming from inside the locker room.

For this discussion i refuse to get into the beaten beyond dead horse that is our FO....does Jay Gruden the man deserve more opportunities to eff up this team? I dunno...i'm stopping short of calling for his head, but his incompetence as a HC is pretty transparent at this juncture & i'm not married to the idea that we should retain him because (name erroneous relative-is here).

"If he dies, he dies"

I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it.

[dcdiscokid]

Gruden got no honeymoon, and he did not deserve one, for reasons previously mentioned. He's not the problem. It's Snyder.

I have a really hard time believing for one second that Snyder will ever change his ways. He did not become a millionaire by accident, and he seems to still think that he can apply the same methods in this arena and achieve success.

Not to go all pop-psych or anything, but it seems he is determined to use what worked for him in the past, like stacking yes-men like cord-wood, and putting his thumbprint on all parts of the organization through the application of personal influence.

Gibbs was the only one he respected enough to go hands-off, but Redskins icons like him obviously don't grow on trees.

I suspect it will take rampant apathy (not that I am encouraging this here) that eventually hurts him in the wallet to get him to even consider changing his approach.

Meanwhile, I will continue to root for them despite my suspicion of inherent futility, and will do my best to avoid getting suspended from this message board again...

Problem with this is that he has never even built a successful business.  He has failed at the ones he has tried six flags and johnny rockets... He made his money by being at the right place at the right time.  If not for the dot com boom, he probably would have destroyed that business too.  So the inherent problem is that he has no idea how to build and run a business. 

[ZRagone]

Why did he get no honeymoon?

 

Well, first things first is regarding the staff and the lack of significant roster turn over. This was like getting divorced and then marrying your ex-wife's sister who has a lot of the same mannerisms. You may go on a honeymoon, but pretty quick you're reminded of what you didn't like about that family.

 

Second thing? The lukewarm reaction to Griffin pretty much throughout the off season and into the start of the season. Gruden was sold to the fans as the guy who was going to turn Griffin into the true franchise guy, yet from the onset he seemed very luke warm. Then you had the injury and the whole debacle back and forth after that. It'd be like going on the honeymoon expecting a fun, hot, sexy time....and on the plane ride over your wife suddenly tells you that she won't be in the mood until maybe later in the trip, and midway through the trip she's like "Meh, no sex for me".

 

Third thing, Gruden's bluntness combined with the continued leaks on this team causing chaos. The honeymoon period is that time where you're still making sure you say "of course not" when the "does this make my ass look fat" question gets asked. It's still the time when you're on your best behavior and you're trying to be nice and focused on each other in the most positive way you can. If your spouse is nit picking you from the moment you get to the airport, constantly being blunt, not using any little white lies, and just basically nagging the whole time then suddenly that honeymoon isn't going to feel like much of a vacation.

 

Fourth thing, our fan base is like a person who's been married 5 times. At this point the Honeymoon doesn't really feel like a vacation, but rather just another expense that's going to be a regret a few years from now.

[ThomasRoane]

...

If you want to see more HC's fail in DC,,, fire Gruden and bring in the next victim... tell him to develop and win with RG3? Snyder is determined to pound his square peg through a round hole in RG3, no matter how many HC's he has to go through!

 

I'm glad someone else gets it.  The common theme since Snyder took over has been to bring in older FA's who are often too old to survive a season and several misses in the draft.  Here's who the team drafted this year alone:

 

2nd - Trent Murphy:  Okay player who is very good at run support and a decent inside pass rusher but lacks the speed to be a true impact player.  He lacks the outside speed rush to allow him to be a true impact player. 

 

3rd - Morgan Moses:  Could not beat out Tyler Polumbus or journeyman Compton.  First NFL snap never got out of his stance.  Even without the injury he looks like an NFL back up.  (If you can't beat out Polumbus you are a back up.)

 

3rd - Spencer Long:  A third rounder should not be a player who isn't good enough to at least be a back up.  He couldn't beat out Luavao or (worse) Chester who routinely gets fork lifted into the backfield.

 

4th - Breeland:  The only hit in the draft but it was more that Breeland puts in the time to be good.  The NFL had to apologize for the penalties in the Giants game.  Over all, he's a solid DB with a bright future; even Bryant lined up away from him.

 

5th - Grant:  Good route runner without speed to stretch the field.  Impact on Special teams and the offense was hardly noticeable.

 

5th - Seastrunk:  Another Baylor guy who was clueless on how the NFL does things.  Like pass protection and route running.  Didn't even make the roster and is on the Panther's practice Squad.

 

6th - Bolser:  Yet another pass catching TE that can't block.  Already had two of those.  He was cut and ended up on Tampa's roster.

 

7th - Zach Hocker Kicker who successfully pushed Forbath on getting deep kick offs.  Still, you'd think he could have been signed as a UFA. 

 

So, out of 8 Draft picks only one is a solid contributor and may be so for years to come.  Four seem to be headed for roles as back ups or situational players and three didn't even make the opening day roster as far as I know. 

 

As for FA's, too much money wasted on Rak who was (Surprise!) hurt again (Seven games - half a sack), an over the hill Safety who had the spirit but the flesh was weak, ex-cowboy who never really got over his injuries and who the team cannot really count on next year, a #4 receiver/punt returner who played more like Randle El than a young Devin Hester, and a handful of other guys that were SUPPOSED to greatly improve the special teams but we never really saw that come to fruition.

 

Not to mention we stuck our Coach with three QB's whom a credentialed GM who had built solid, playoff teams says are not NFL Franchise QBs. 

 

I don't know who could have succeeded with this poorly assembled wreck of a team.  The same scenario has played out over and over since Dan bought the team.  He and naive fans believe that the next great player or coach will make all the difference.  But it never does and never will.  Those coaches who can't escape with dignity will leave with the same shell-shocked, blank stare that a blind boxer might have.

 

Hire a real NFL GM and blow this team up! 

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

I'm glad someone else gets it.  The common theme since Snyder took over has been to bring in older FA's who are often too old to survive a season and several misses in the draft.  Here's who the team drafted this year alone:

 

2nd - Trent Murphy:  Okay player who is very good at run support and a decent inside pass rusher but lacks the speed to be a true impact player.  He lacks the outside speed rush to allow him to be a true impact player. 

 

3rd - Morgan Moses:  Could not beat out Tyler Polumbus or journeyman Compton.  First NFL snap never got out of his stance.  Even without the injury he looks like an NFL back up.  (If you can't beat out Polumbus you are a back up.)

 

3rd - Spencer Long:  A third rounder should not be a player who isn't good enough to at least be a back up.  He couldn't beat out Luavao or (worse) Chester who routinely gets fork lifted into the backfield.

 

4th - Breeland:  The only hit in the draft but it was more that Breeland puts in the time to be good.  The NFL had to apologize for the penalties in the Giants game.  Over all, he's a solid DB with a bright future; even Bryant lined up away from him.

 

5th - Grant:  Good route runner without speed to stretch the field.  Impact on Special teams and the offense was hardly noticeable.

 

5th - Seastrunk:  Another Baylor guy who was clueless on how the NFL does things.  Like pass protection and route running.  Didn't even make the roster and is on the Panther's practice Squad.

 

6th - Bolser:  Yet another pass catching TE that can't block.  Already had two of those.  He was cut and ended up on Tampa's roster.

 

7th - Zach Hocker Kicker who successfully pushed Forbath on getting deep kick offs.  Still, you'd think he could have been signed as a UFA. 

 

So, out of 8 Draft picks only one is a solid contributor and may be so for years to come.  Four seem to be headed for roles as back ups or situational players and three didn't even make the opening day roster as far as I know. 

 

As for FA's, too much money wasted on Rak who was (Surprise!) hurt again (Seven games - half a sack), an over the hill Safety who had the spirit but the flesh was weak, ex-cowboy who never really got over his injuries and who the team cannot really count on next year, a #4 receiver/punt returner who played more like Randle El than a young Devin Hester, and a handful of other guys that were SUPPOSED to greatly improve the special teams but we never really saw that come to fruition.

 

Not to mention we stuck our Coach with three QB's whom a credentialed GM who had built solid, playoff teams says are not NFL Franchise QBs. 

 

I don't know who could have succeeded with this poorly assembled wreck of a team.  The same scenario has played out over and over since Dan bought the team.  He and naive fans believe that the next great player or coach will make all the difference.  But it never does and never will.  Those coaches who can't escape with dignity will leave with the same shell-shocked, blank stare that a blind boxer might have.

 

Hire a real NFL GM and blow this team up!

Gave it 1 like, deserves even more!! Well done!!!

[nemocystem]

We get it. .the FO is bad, the owner is bad, the concessions are bad, the beer is bad, the players are worse...blah, blah, blah.

Yet here we are discussing a thread on why the HC wasn't alotted a typical "honeymoon" period.

What's more is that you may look at the bad everything else & be convinced that such is no climate for a HC to succeed, & you're probably right. Still...when you can look at specifically the things that make coaches good/bad & see Gruden consistently doing the bad ones, then FOR THIS DISCUSSION one surely can find a better defense, if that is your intent.

Just because your soil is poor, your climate is whack, your vine is infested, & your hydration is broken doesn't mean you should still keep the sour grapes because....well **** it...they never had a chance.

It all smats of a "look at the shiny thing over here" argument. Just because you're correct about 20 some odd (obvious exaggeration) surrounding factors doesn't mean your argument centered even remotely around the principle subject.

Gruden had no honeymoon because he never deserved one...plain & simple...regardless of who put him there or how many pieces were in place to set him up for failure. He's going to get another year, or more, & i'll be there to eat crow, or squeek & squawk until he's gone.

But let's at least stay on topic please.

[#BgMase76#]

I don't buy it. Haz Claimed he was handcuffed by Shanny. This season he's supposed to be unleashed on the league. We saw what that amounted to. When does someone stand up and make the call? We saw Gruden hee haw point and call players out. What about his coaching staff?

[gaskinsfan]

Gruden's first season was really a pass in my mind. The staff wasn't his, we didn't have a GM, he had to play RG3 to start, basically he played someone else's hand last year.

 

Now he has hired the staff, they have a GM, and he is free to do what he wants. Next year and the year following will be very telling. If we can make strides and grow as a team in a couple of years people might be shocked at how well they do.

 

Since 1999 I can't remember the skins having a proven personnel man as GM, and a proven young NFL coordinator as HC. It's worked for many other teams I hope it works for us.

[Bishop Hammer]

Gruden should get more than one year. Barring a 0-16 or 1-15 start its ridiculous to sack a coach that soon.

[roanoker]

At 4-12 someone got a honeymoon.

[TheLongshot]

First time I've seen this topic, so excuse me if I cover some well trodden paths.

 

Really, the animosity toward Gruden has less to do about him and more to do with Bruce Allen.  Whether right nor not, Allen is held responsible for the past 5 years.  Given that Gruden was chosen by Allen and the association with Tampa Bay, some fans have felt that the choice was tainted. It didn't help when the Redskins sputtered and never really seemed to get better.

 

Tho a lot of things have changed since this post was made, this view still continues because he was Allen's choice.  Even with hiring a GM, some are viewing Gruden as Dead Man Walking until the GM can hire his own guy.  While that could be the truth, more likely the view internally is to try to give Gruden what he needs to succeed.

 

I think this view will persist until the team show some real improvement.

[Jumbo]

Gruden gets mentioned a lot, particularly in Rg3Ocd thread, but we haven't really had many threads on our HC. I went to page 3 to find this dead one where I could appropriately post this from Hap in BRBN.  (didn't merit its own thread based on content)

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/16404/ryan-clark-on-jay-gruden-had-to-learn-how-to-instill-belief

 

(Keim)

 

Ryan Clark on Jay Gruden: He had to learn how to instill belief

 

<edited>

 

Clark, who won Super Bowls in Pittsburgh and played for Hall of Fame coach Joe Gibbs in Washington, understands how coaches need to handle business. In a conversation that took place a few days before the season finale -- a timeless look at Gruden’s first season -- Clark, now retired and an ESPN analyst, said he saw growth in Gruden. Most of the growth, Clark said, occurred in how he dealt with players during the Redskins' 4-12 season. It wasn’t about his ability to communicate as much as how he came across when doing so.

 

"Most of being a head coach is delegating first, and second is making me believe that you have the best plan for us to win," Clark said. "Early in the season with everything going on and not having stood in front of teams before and not having to grasp their attention, he was trying to figure out his way.

 

"He’s really funny and playful, but sometimes it’s hard to switch from that guy to the forceful guy, and then when we’re losing and that’s your personality, that’s really hard."

 

Indeed, one former coach under Joe Gibbs used to talk about how when their teams struggled, everyone knew he meant business. The look on his face told them all they needed to know. Gibbs had a soft spot for many things, but he was also one of the most competitive people around. Losing did not sit well.

 

Gruden certainly looked wounded after losses. Following one loss, he walked around the room shaking hands with players and thanking them for their effort.

 

"[Gruden] is a guy that really cares and he wears the losses like it hurts him," Clark said. "He takes it personal, and that’s good because you’re supposed to. I want to know you care, but we have to know you’re ready to move on and coach us. You could see him throughout the year be more positive and more upbeat and come into huddles on Saturdays before games where people said we have no chance and be like, 'Hey, guys we can win this game. Our offense can move the ball this way. Defense, you can stop them this way.' He got a lot better with that as the season went on."

 

But Clark also said he told teammates that Gruden would be good for them -- if they get to the point where they’re winning. That, of course, is the toughest part of the job.

 

"He’d be one of the best head coaches to play for," Clark said. "He understands keeping guys fresh and that matters to me. He understands you can’t drill guys into the ground constantly. It was hard for him, understanding that, but also having so many young guys and new guys that they needed reps. He gained a better understanding of dealing with people. That’s the hardest part of this job.

 

"If I was to hire a coach, 95 percent of what I’d look for is the way he deals with people. It’s a constant battle with the media, it’s one of the few place I’ve been in that cares how you act in the locker room after a loss, whether you’re joking in the locker room during the week. When you have to answer those questions and deal with stuff that way it’s extremely tough. He’s learning how to do that."

 

 

 

<more at link>

[Wildbunny]

Great stuff on Gruden from Clark.

That sounds like what I had expected. Guy was a Rookie HC thought that he could do it is own way being fun and stuff. But reality and losses strike back to him.

 

According to Clark he seemed to learn threw year one, and the changes made in Coaching staff since last season are telling me he's getting a clue and 2015 Jay Gruden will have nothing like 2014. He'll be more of a HC than an OC trying to be a HC as he was last year.

 

I like that.

[Burgold]

I think Clark makes a fair point that all of us know, then conveniently forget as we get more or less frustrated. Just like a rookie athlete should improve so should a rookie coach.  I hoped that the fact that he was a head coach at another level would mitigate some of the learning pains, but it really didn't. There seems to be a lot of organizational things that just caught him flat footed. Combine that with a problematic roster and some albatrosses he got stuck with (a team built for run option and a defense weak on talent and Haslett run) and it's not that much of a surprise that it fell apart.

 

I will say that the most positive sign I saw was that I truly believe this team gave up a game or two after the dud after the bye. Then, we had a game where we were about as ugly as possible and Gruden reamed them out and the offense snapped back and began to play and fight. More, there was a carryover effect for a few games. So, the team was listening and caring what he had to say. At least his side of the ball did. I think the D just gave up almost in totality. Haslett had no answers or the ones he tried had no effect and the team lost faith in themselves and him.

 

That's my outsider perspective anyway. It could be totally accurate or full of __________. 

[Skinsinparadise]

First time I've seen this topic, so excuse me if I cover some well trodden paths.

 

Really, the animosity toward Gruden has less to do about him and more to do with Bruce Allen.  Whether right nor not, Allen is held responsible for the past 5 years.  Given that Gruden was chosen by Allen and the association with Tampa Bay, some fans have felt that the choice was tainted. It didn't help when the Redskins sputtered and never really seemed to get better.

 

 

 

IMO the Allen connection exacerbates the drill with Jay.  Jay being's Allen's choice and Allen in an interview suggesting Jay had him at hello -- doesn't give a warm and fuzzy feeling to people who don't have faith in Allen's competence.  As bad as Ceratto was, the win-loss record during his tenure has easily outstripped Allen's -- which is a scary thought.

 

As for Jay: the counter theories am used to on this is:  are you saying Jay is a dummy or the opinion is all wrapped up in RG3.  Just from a raw debating stance, I think those counters are effective considering -- of course no coach is a real dummy and of course the attitude about a coach shouldn't be completely painted by one player -- but I don't think either point has major relevance to the debate.  Most of us make decisions about coaches based on lots of observation, we all read whatever we can get our hands on, watch countless interviews, watch the games, etc.  I am not saying our attitudes are spot on but when it comes to assessing a coach its usually about encoding multiple variables.

 

When it comes to me about Jay, the cliff notes version is he seems to be winging it a bit too much for my taste where he is giving B effort in a league with overachieving A students.   And yeah you can learn as Ryan suggested from 1 year to the next.      Clark basically says here that Jay is good about being one of the guys and being that cool players coach but its not easy to switch from that to being the leader you must be to command a room.   This is somewhat consistent with more than one reporter who said that the locker room is unusually loose and undisciplined both at home and on the road and that under Gibbs-Gregg Williams things were tense-intense in practice after a loss but that wasn't the case under Jay.

 

Growing up with Gibbs 1, the team seemed to out prepare their opponents.   You felt that Gibbs was just smarter than the opposing coach.   When it comes to Jay, for me at least he doesn't give me the vibe that he will out prepare and outwit the better coaches in the NFL.    Granted that's a vibe but there is some smoke to back up that vibe -- Jay by his own admission isn't a workaholic like his brother, the WP wrote that Jay like the players likes to have a good time when practice is over.     I do bet he works hard and i did read the article where he talked about being upset about a loss and coming into the office that day in the wee hours of the morning.

 

But reading a book about Belichick -- he thinks through everything, he is relentless.  And he's not alone.  Gibbs in his first tenure was a leader and so driven.  I think the difference between a Gibbs 1-Belichick go 100 miles an hour guy versus an ambitious but less so 80 mile hour guy, is huge in a league where the difference between winning and losing often falls on small details.  I think if Jay was considered some mad scientist genius (Chip Kelly style) maybe I can over look that.  But his reputation was-is that he's a good offensive coordinator but not  rock star status-elite X and O's guy.  Going back to Belichick he isn't just driven, detail driven but he's also considered an elite X and O's guy, too.

[88Comrade2000]

Reading that  makes me more convinced that Allen was just looking to give a buddy his first shot.  Jay Gruden was the wrong person to hire as head coach and I still believe that will show itself throughout this season unforntunately.

 

The 2014 Washington Redskins  were the wrong team to hire a rookie, inexperience head coach.  If we wanted a first time NFL head coach; we should've went with a college head coach. At least a college head coach has head coach experience.

 

Now that we have a GM in place; we will have someone who will conduct a better search next time around; which I believe to be in 2016.  Scott must be given full authority to hire the right head coach.

[Wildbunny]

What makes you think that Scott wouldn't have hired Jay last year had he been in charge? Have he said or done something that makes you think this?

And answering with something along the lines of 'because Jay sucks' is not a good enough answer. Bill bellichick was fired twice from HC duties prior to NE.

[Conn]

What makes you think that Scott wouldn't have hired Jay last year had he been in charge? Have he said or done something that makes you think this?

There's no way to know he wouldn't have...but there's also no way to know he would have. So it's kind of a pointless, moronic conversation to have.

We aren't living in some fictional 2014 where McCloughan is hiring the coach. We're living in 2015, and we have one season of Gruden failing. If we get more of the same, it won't matter what McCloughan would have done last year. It will only matter what he will do in the future.

Now, I expect Scot to provide Gruden with a deeper, more talented roster. And it's possible our QB position is so ****ed that our ceiling is capped regardless. But either way, Gruden will have a fighting chance to prove he belongs, regardless of what McCloughan thinks right now or would have thought in 2014.

That said, I think it's pretty easy to look at McCloughan's roster-building preferences and general philosophy and see that Gruden doesn't fit the criteria you'd expect to find in a coach he'd hand-pick.

[redskins55]

No way Scot McCloughan hires Jay Gruden to be his first head coach in Washington.... No Way!!

 

BEVEL- OC SEATTLE

QUINN- DC SEATTLE

BOWELS- DC CARDS   (NFC WEST)

FANGIO -DC 49ERS 

 

My educated guess is Bevel, knowing that Bevel convinced him to draft Russell Wilson. (Pete Carol's words)

And McCloughan knows we have a similar mobile QB. But throw all logic out the window when dealing with the redskins and TampaBruce Allen!

[Rex Tomb]

Yeah I agree.

 

"Garcon was not the first read," Cosell said. "(Tight end) Niles Paul was the read, and Griffin couldn't throw it to him because the linebacker had read it and took it away."The mere fact that Griffin could come back to Garcon with such mental and physical quickness, with pressure right in his face, was pretty remarkable for any quarterback, much less a rookie in his first game."

 

DG - love the sig - I'm hoping Griffin can get back to that form.  I believe he still can with a little help in offensive game planning and an upgraded O-line (with the help of Callahan).  

[veteranskinsfan]

I agree our Head Coach got no honeymoon. But I believe he can turn this mess around.

We will see improvement the second year. It helps now to have a General Manager who

knows what he is doing.  Gruden must be relieved to know that Scott can get him decent players.

Bringing in a quarterbacks coach should help as well. 

[88Comrade2000]

I don't think Gruden would've been on Scott's list, had he been the GM last year. He would've picked someone from Seattle or San Francisco most likely.

 

Anyone really expect that much difference in 2015, are fooling themselves.  We have a head coach who doesn't really believe in 2 of 3 QBs on the roster.  Doesn't matter what they say in public.  That alone is going to cause some problems.  Unless, one of the QBs seizes the job and goes on a tear; it's going to be a similar season in 2015.

[Wildbunny]

nm

 

misread it...

 

[TSO]

I find it extremely difficult to simultaneously believe that:

 

1) Hiring Scot as GM was a vital, extremely necessary move for this organization AND...

2) Gruden just simply stinks as a HC. 

 

There is an underlying contradictory thought-process there with those who hold on to both of those beliefs, in my mind.

[Skinsinparadise]

I find it extremely difficult to simultaneously believe that:

 

1) Hiring Scot as GM was a vital, extremely necessary move for this organization AND...

2) Gruden just simply stinks as a HC. 

 

There is an underlying contradictory thought-process there with those who hold on to both of those beliefs, in my mind.

 

Clearly, someone can like Scot's competence but question Jay's -- so am not sure what you mean about the contradiction.