Why Gruden got no honeymoon--

[Destino]

Average overall as a pocket passer (behind this OL) which is expected since 2013/2014 has been about DEVELOPING HIM into a pocket passer. Mix in the spread/RO/athleticism I think he is good- look at the TD run today. Mix in 2012 and it's worth evaluating further- maybe behind an OL designed for pocket passing. In fact that should have probably been done first rather than adjust the QB before the OL. Cart before the horse.

 

So after two years of development, what do you feel are the signs of progress.  What has he shown that suggests that next year he'll excel as a pocket passer?  He has to do it next season because there is no year 5.  1 more season before he's either a boom or a bust.  So does he look ready for a break out year to you? 

 

To me it looks like both he and Gruden will fall on their faces next season and end up looking for a new team.  This thread asked about a honeymoon, remaining on this team after the years they've had is an argument that they both may have received one.  Gruden was a disaster and RG3 looked like a late round rookie forced into a starting role. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Can I ask this: How many of you think he is currently a good QB?

 

He's a struggling but highly talented QB who's been poorly mismanaged by successive staffs.

 

That's not to excuse his own flaws. He needs to hold his own hands up and admit there's certain things that should be second nature three years in. Although to be fair he has missed a significant amount of time through injury that hasn't helped that development one bit so it's FAR from three years in reality.

 

He's FAR from currently a good pro QB.

 

But it's FAR from all on him.

 

Hail.

[ThomasRoane]

This organization will remain in last place with this owner. Danny is just a moron, who is still confused after 15 years of ownership about running a successful team. The FO is a joke. Allen shouldn't be anywhere near a pro team. The scouting department is laughable bad. Just look at our draft history and FA signings. Coaches suck and players suck.

 

There are only a handful of players worth keeping. I would keep the following:

 

T. Williams

D. Jackson

A. Morris

R. Kerrigan

Baker

Breeland

Way

Forbath

 

That's it. Jordan Reed is injury prone and can't be relied upon to play 14+ games. Same goes for K. Robinson.

Trade DJax, Trent, Garçon, Reed, Morris, etc. keep the young defensive talent. Love those guys but the Redskins won't be ready to win before they start wearing down. Load up on picks and rebuild it. I'm sick of the constant patch jobs and filling pot holes. Raze it to the ground.

No one should be safe. Not even Jay Gruden but that should be an AJ Smith call. Not a Dan Snyder call. Dan doesn't know any more about football than 75% of the fans that post here.

[THE POSSE 81 83 84]

Gruden is incompetent as a head coach. 

 

1) Dressing 7 offensive lineman for games all season when 8 is the standard and 9 is sometimes used.  For the last few drives today, we only had 4 OL with 2 TE's.

 

2) How is he a QB guru?  Just because you were a QB does not make you a guru.  He helped the development of Andy Dalton who is a average QB and a bunch of AFL and UFL guys. When he was the offensive assistant for 6 years (very low level) in Tampa, they did win a Super Bowl the 1st year with n old Brad Johnson, but Garcia was ancient and he didn't really work wonders with Brian Griese or Chris Simms.

 

3) Going back-and-forth with the QBs and then embarrassing them publicly in the media

 

4) Sean McVay as the Offensive Coordinator and I'm not sure what he even does bc he doesn't call the plays.

 

Gruden needs to show that he has a pair of something and fire Haslett.  Otherwise he is a lame duck head coach, just like Zorn.  I don't think he has those.

 

Make no mistake, this is not entirely on Gruden as Tampa Bay North is once again not working in the Front Office.  What do Bruce Allen, Doug Williams and Jay Gruden have in common?  All were on the staff immediately after the Buccaneers Super Bowl win when they fell apart.

[NoCalMike]

I think the QB situation on this team is more volatile then with most teams because it's more then simply two guys competing with each other.  Lets withhold Colt McCoy from the conversation for a moment.

 

Robert vs. Kirk.

 

IMO, if you have an open & honest QB competition between the two, Kirk Cousins would emerge as the better guy to run Jay Gruden's offense because he has more of the classic QB skill-set for a variety of reasons. However, the problem is that this offense overall is not good enough for any QB to succeed consistently in it right now.  Cousins was the only one of the three that made this offense actually look explosive, however the O-line's poor play eventually got to him as well and he started rushing throws because he was anticipating the rush. So while the O-line effected Robert in different ways, it still also effected Kirk's play too.  

 

Now, with that said, I still think Robert has a skill-set that gives him a higher potential ceiling as an NFL QB, however not with this coach and not in this kind of offense. The QB situation on this team is so much bigger then simply two guys competing, there are a ton of factors that could determine who the starter is going into 2015.

 

Gruden sounded nearly like a broken man during his post-game preference today, which is bad because it speaks to how bad this team was in 2014, but also good because the way we was talking, there are going to be a lot of changes in store, which maybe means it isn't only personnel-wise, but perhaps also the way the offense is designed going forward.  He seemed to have the "nothing is off the table" attitude towards the offseason, which is what this franchise needs.

[TouchdownSkin]

I would have preferred that upon hiring Gruden, every single coach would have been fired. You want to change culture, then change management. To be fair to Gruden, he was not handed the keys, just allowed to drive around the block in Daddy's car.

I thought Gruden made the decision to retain Haslett, etc.

[nemocystem]

If i had it my way they would all be gone...we would see 1 of the 3 QB's move towards "success" in this league (give you a hint. ..starts with R & ends with pariah). We would let a new staff select a QB, a boatload of new players by way of tradable assets, & focus on development of youth. In a few years we would all forget RGIII & have renewed focus on vitriolic diatribes towards whomever took over whatever...& still nobody would agree that the problem is not 1, 2, 3, or 53 players so much as everyone else resting comfortably above them.

It's absolutely unconscionable that QB is even a discussion right now. I don't care who your horse is...he's headed to the glue factory so long as he plays for this franchise.

Just stop...please.

[Cooleyfan1993]

If i had it my way they would all be gone...we would see 1 of the 3 QB's move towards "success" in this league (give you a hint. ..starts with R & ends with pariah). We would let a new staff select a QB, a boatload of new players by way of tradable assets, & focus on development of youth. In a few years we would all forget RGIII & have renewed focus on vitriolic diatribes towards whomever took over whatever...& still nobody would agree that the problem is not 1, 2, 3, or 53 players so much as everything else resting comfortably above them.

It's absolutely unconscionable that QB is even a discussion right now. I don't care who your horse is...he's headed to the glue factory so long as he plays for this franchise.

Just stop...please.

Starts with R and ends with pariah? Which QB on our team has a name close to that?

[RandyHolt]

It seems he didn't get a honeymoon because he was treated as a proven head coach, and expected to take over a team in year 5 of a rebuild seamlessly.  Dalton making the playoffs 3 years in a row, was his resume. 

 

I like to grade playoff performances more heavily than regular season games, given the chance. And unfortunately Gruden was 0-3 in the playoffs. But that apparently was overlooked, since he was a family guy. 

 

I am still irritated to hear that play calling has to go through our former Tusker and TEs coach, before getting to Robert, and that we are likely the only team that does not have a QB coach. Oh, and likely the only team that abhors hurry up / up tempo, even though that is the style Robert used to win the Heisman. Our offense could not be run any slower. 

 

Shame on me. I keep expecting young coaches to be progressive, do things differently, but the younger the coaches get, the more old school they appear to be. 

[SkinsFTW]

Jay could have easily adopted a 'development' approach with Griffin but instead took a 'win now' approach then proceeded not to win. Even without Griffin.

 

I think that was done by Snyder and Allen when they signed 30-40Mil of FA's this past year rather than starting a rebuild and it got us from 3-13 to 4-12. Great Job there Snyder.

[darrelgreenie]

.....You're still that damn clueles about your pet QB? On the sack fumble for a TD Robert only had to slide to the left and pick up 7 yards. Keep dreaming. Number 10 is not an NFL QB.

blah blah blah.

The pixies are NOT red!

That's what all your responses to my posts read like.

IF you actually cared to respond to the content of my post instead of fabricating and spewing vapid claims....maybe...maybe there could be dialogue.

Til then....keep dreaming was it?

[NoCalMike]

The way people micro-manage every sack Robert takes, makes me think that they also must think that no QB ever on any team should be sacked. EVER.

 

"oh he just had to slide this way, oh he just had to tumble that way, oh hey, if he hopped three times on his left foot he'd....."

 

Enough already. I haven't seen any other QB in the league get a "all he had to do is" reaction to sacks the way Robert has.

 

And as someone who tries to be objective on the matter, I am not even disagreeing on some of the sacks. Sure, there are times he can do things better, but the way the O-line is constantly pushed around and pushed backwards it is going to change the way a QB plays and reacts.  Call it the "Patrick Ramsey" effect, perhaps?

 

If you think the sacks are all Robert's fault, then explain why the other 2 QB's were getting sacked a bunch too.  Or explain to me why Cousins was so scared of the pass rush that he was rushing/forcing throws to places there were no WRs at. 

[campbellcooleyconnection]

Never seen an oline this terrible before...I mean TERRIBLE.run blocking is laughable pass pro not much better..are these guys giving their all?Hope not!

[dfw]

I spent my first 30 years as a Giants fan, then moved to Dallas and had multiple Cowboys in my neighborhood, so rooting for them came easy. Then sent a few bucks to Baylor to educate my daughters and as a 16 year Baylor season ticket holder, I became a Redskins fan when they drafted Robert.

 

Now, I can't wait until they trade him, waive him or cut him. Humiliate him in any way necessary Washington, just send him ANYWHERE else in the league. Yeah, he hasn't been great the past 2 years, but this franchise is a disaster and Snyder is much worse than Jerry Jones as an owner.

 

I really wanted the Skins to win the Super Bowl with Robert, but the handwriting is on the wall. There is zero chance of success for the Skins or Robert.

 

PS. Anyone think that Jay Gruden will get another HC job in the NFL?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Wow....never thought I'd ever see someone admit that lol

[Mercuryrising]

The way people micro-manage every sack Robert takes, makes me think that they also must think that no QB ever on any team should be sacked. EVER.

 

"oh he just had to slide this way, oh he just had to tumble that way, oh hey, if he hopped three times on his left foot he'd....."

 

Enough already. I have seen no other QB in the league get a "all he had to do is" reaction to sacks the way Robert has.

 

And as someone who tries to be objective on the matter, I am not even disagreeing on some of the sacks. Sure, there are times he can do things better, but the way the O-line is constantly pushed around and pushed backwards it is going to change the way a QB plays and reacts.  Call it the "Patrick Ramsey" effect, perhaps?

 

If you think the sacks are all Robert's fault, then explain why the other 2 QB's were getting sacked a bunch too.  Or explain to me why Cousins was so scared of the pass rush that he was rushing/forcing throws to places there were no WRs at. 

 

It is weird that I agree with you 100% and yet at the same time I am always questioning what my eyes perceive with RG III and avoiding sacks. He is this incredible athlete, but unless he is running full speed he can't seem to be able to make anyone miss him. Lumbering Ben Roethlisberger takes a calm side step or 2, or slowly jogs in a small semi-circle and defenders fall all over themselves and he buys 3-4 more seconds. Robert can't seem to get out of a 6-5 360 pound guys way no matter what.... That and the way his body explodes into a random odd jumble of angles, defying all laws of physics at even the smallest of hits makes me think I am watching the most unathletic EXTREEMLY athletic person I have ever seen in my life.

[NoCalMike]

Well I think when guys like Ben or Eli, who is also good at that, side step defenders, there aren't free rushers with open lanes.  they are guys that are being rode at a certain angle by the O-lineman, to where they only have 1 path trajectory to get to the QB.

 

If I could relate it to anything we see with our D-line.  Think Orakpo, have you ever noticed that it seems like Orakpo routinely can beat his man over the top, but it hardly ever leads to sacks because the O-lineman just kind of leads him around the back of the pocket so the QB only merely has to take a step forward and Orakpo is basically taken completely out of the play, even though if you just focused the camera solely on Orakpo and his guy it makes you think Orakpo is beating his guy.

 

Ok, so contrast THAT with the same thing happening, but you also are getting the interior O-line pushed backwards into the pocket.  So now, the option of "stepping up into the pocket" is pretty much eliminated. 

[FrFan]

I watched his presser and thought the first journalist spoiled him for good when he asked him about the film watch. After roughly 8 minutes he couldn't restrain himself any longer (about Robert): "I've got to check-out the film".

He's been doing that from week one, after week 17 he's still clueless, nevertheless he said he'll keep on spending a great amount of time continuing watching the film during the offseason.

Groundhog day syndrome.

 

edit: “Everybody, top to bottom, in this organization is going to get evaluated, and it’s going to be a thorough evaluation,” coach Jay Gruden said

Start with yourself !

[Burgold]

Well I think when guys like Ben or Eli, who is also good at that, side step defenders, there aren't free rushers with open lanes.  they are guys that are being rode at a certain angle by the O-lineman, to where they only have 1 path trajectory to get to the QB.

Exactly.  I heard something interesting about Peyton Manning the other day.  He has one of the fastest releases at about 1.8 seconds.  That's why he often went untouched, but with a whiff, a D-lineman can get up onto a qb in about 1.6 seconds.  With the 'skins this year, we would have mulitple rushers breaking through untouched.  Earlier in this thread someone said that RGIII performs like a mediocre QB and part of me thinks or wants to believe that if he can be mediocre behind this line than if we gave him Dallas' or Green Bay's or even Pittsburgh's he's be incredible.

[SkinsFTW]

I watched his presser and thought the first journalist spoiled him for good when he asked him about the film watch. After roughly 8 minutes he couldn't restrain himself any longer (about Robert): "I've got to check-out the film".

Maybe they can figure out a way for him to "Check out the film" as the game is going on so that the head coach knows WTF is going on 20-30 feet in front of him. If you don't even know without watching film then no wonder the offensive play calling looks moronic.

[RhodeIsland Ave]

Everyone thinks they are an expert because they either played pee-wee football 30 yrs ago, played madden and design plays, listen to all the talking heads and can repeat what was said by the non-experts. Its getting really old when they say "oh, all Robert had to do was this and that"...give it a damn break.

 

Yes, he can improve in the pocket, if he had a pocket in the first place. The OL is historically horrible. I too watch other QBs and i've noticed that they too make the same mistakes as Robert...and i'm talking about the seasoned vets - Ben, Brady, Brees and even the great Aaron Rodgers. Fact is, when the line doesn't provide time, the QB is going to start anticipating the rush, forcing throws, dumping off while not looking their best. All have looked less than stellar on many occasions this season.

 

As other posters have said, I would like to see RG3 behind a line that can give him more than 2 seconds to go thru his progression without free runners coming at him on a regular basis.

[pjfootballer]

Wow....never thought I'd ever see someone admit that lol

Giants fan, then Dallass, then Washington? WTF?

Took some brass ones for him to post that.

[Skinsinparadise]

Jason Reid has written a couple of articles about Jay's loose locker room.  Chris Russell expanded on it this morning saying at home and on the road, just looks like a loose-non disciplined locker room -- music blaring, shooting hoops.  Not sure what either Reid or Russell are leading up to but they both think its a problem.  

[nemocystem]

Jason Reid has written a couple of articles about Jay's loose locker room. Chris Russell expanded on it this morning saying at home and on the road, just looks like a loose-non disciplined locker room -- music blaring, shooting hoops. Not sure what either Reid or Russell are leading up to but they both think its a problem.

I just don't think he's NFL head coach material. I am well aware of the need to wipe the board from the top of the organization on down...but seriously. ..how much more do we need to see from Gruden before we can honestly separate his failures from those of the top brass & at least make one move in the (potentially) right direction?

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Let's be realistic here; We scape goat Snyder time and again laying blame on the coaches, we had 2 coaches who had won 5 super bowls between them, and they looked like they had no business coaching football at any level during their tenure...I don't think people understand how bad the talent has been on this team under Snyder, specifically the O-line, you cannot run any type of productive offense without a good offensive line, you need a very good/great O-line...couple that with a QB who has no idea what he is looking at downfield unless he's playing backyard football out of the pocket,,, who could succeed under those circumstances?

How bad have the G-men looked the last 2 years without an O-line? All of a sudden Coughlin can't coach, and Eli can't play QB? Funny how a 2 people who have won 2 super bowls have lost the ability to do their job's overnight, the same time their O-line went into the dumper...YOU NEED A VERY GOOD O-LINE!

And if you think we are going to get better personnel wise, think again...just take a look at our 2014 draft, that is Snyder and Allen at their best///backup linebacker over starting O-linemen, a 4th or 5th WR with a frail body, over O-linemen and safeties. So far our best player out of the entire draft has been Bauman, If he can stop committing foul after foul, and stay off the weed! 1 player "maybe" in perhaps an all time talented rich draft...

We do not know what Jay is right now as a coach, he need's player's in order to be evaluated properly!

Judging him by his ability to develop RG3 is ignorant to say the least...RG3 is what he is, and will not develop into an NFL QB...he is a college read option QB!

If you want to see more HC's fail in DC,,, fire Gruden and bring in the next victim... tell him to develop and win with RG3? Snyder is determined to pound his square peg through a round hole in RG3, no matter how many HC's he has to go through!