Why Gruden got no honeymoon--

[TSO]

I think you're wrong on two fronts there, brother nemo.

 

First, there is far more talk here about Gruden/RG3/Haslett/etc... than anything about the FO even with the threads on that topic, including the Twitter thread that is filled with tweets mainly focused on dissecting every word Gruden says. 

 

Second, I believe we can affect change in anyway we so choose. Whatever we focus more on will help. Maybe that's naive, but you can forgive me for prioritizing properly.

 

Either way, it's all interconnected and I'm not sure how any discussion pertaining to the coaching staff, or even players for that matter, can be separated from the FO since their issues are largely related to what they've been surrounded with. 

[FrFan]

I don't know. I sometimes think Snyder did get to be a milionaire (billionaire?) by accident.  It seems almost all of his other ventures have failed and even the Redskins which used to be the number 2 most profitable sports entity in the world is looking shabbier.

He had some business talent once with his sister, then he got very lucky a stupid french company overpaid for Snyder Com. Before that his businesses were mostly failures, after that only more failures. He got an exponentially growing ego, thinking he's got the midas touch and could outsmart everybody. Arrogance, false pride, icarus complex, are taking their toll as they always do.

The only thing you need is to get lucky big time once just like another prick named BGates (see Kidall's CP/M, IBM antitrust lawsuit). Then the cash and fame are surging, no matter how you struck it rich.

[Bishop Hammer]

BLa Bla Bla, its always the coach, Jay couldn't develop an Rg3 who isn't smart enough to develop himself. If a coach gives you all the data, the reps, the film time, at some point doesn't the QB have to develop himself.

I don't blame Jay for failing at this dumpster fire of an organization, those with agenda's will blame him and that's fine.

The reality is if you want advice on a winning franchise, good coaches, and front office, don't come to ES because nobody has seen it in 20 years.

Yeah. Everyone complaining about Gruden's failures act like a coach struggling, here, is an oddity instead of the norm. Other than Gibbs every coach has failed here.

[SkinsFTW]

The fans haven't raised enough hell apparently so we get stuck with a year+ more of Vinnie 2.0 and the never ending Dan Snyder Clown Show and all it took for many fans to be content was 1 inconsequential win in 8 games. Remember now people, just because Snyder hired a "GM" doesn't mean that when it's FA time and Draft Day he isn't the one filling out his fantasy football roster. A 3-13 team goes out and spends 30-40Mil on a handful of FA's to get to 4-12, totally impressive and this Front Office and Owner just keep on rolling like nothing happened because Snyder has more fun losing while playing with his toys than winning and watching somebody else do it.

 

Only when the fans in droves laugh openly about this clown show (the media already does), bring 1000s of pissed off signs to the game or completely stop going to the games does Snyder possibly start getting it and then his likely decision, as it has been in the past, is to fire another coach because who possibly could be the next puppet?

[FrFan]

 Snyder has more fun losing while playing with his toys than winning and watching somebody else do it.

You nailed it !

[Skinsinparadise]

How about the fact that, similar to pretty much every coach we've hired except Zorn, he's had success every where he's been including running one phase of an NFL team while showing improvement every year?

 

 

 

Your long post makes my point too.  Your main point: look at all the stuff that Jay has to deal with so we can't really judge him.  And, you add the stuff about him in the past.   And as we know he's not been a head coach in the NFL previously.  Heck even as an offensive coordinator, he did some good things but few talked about him being elite play caller.   The NFL is littered with good coordinators who have shown to be bad HCs.   Can we think of a HC who was named by any team who hasn't had success in their previous roles?  It would be strange thing.  Yeah we hired this guy, he stunk it up as a D coordinator but we said what the heck lets give it a go as HC. Sorry for the sarcasm but yeah I don't see Jay having success in previous roles to be even a little relevant.  If he were a HC in the NFL, sure. 

 

I am talking what has Jay done here.  I follow your point.  He can't be successful because of Bruce and Danny.   But in my view, its too simplistic to brush off all his failures to other people.  Was Dan calling the run plays?  Dan said look Jay I want you to go to mostly outside zone running plays versus inside and as soon as you lose the mood for running -- bail on it and get pass happy or whatever.  

 

You said even Gibbs couldn't do it.  Well he did a heck of a lot more.  even in season 1 which wasn't great, he brought in Gregg Williams, and this was a tough defense and feisty team and he ultimately took us to the playoffs.   He actually built a decent offensive line, too. Shanny for his faults built a great running game.    Zorn for his faults in his first year went 6-2.  Marty finished strong in his first year.  My point is you saw glimmers of things to hang onto.  What's Jay's glimmer?  great press conferences?

 

Am all cool with your point that Dan-Bruce beyond stink,  I agree. But I don't separate Jay from the stink.  To me Jay so far at least is another example of the Bruce-Jay stink -- not an exclusive variable to it.   Seriously, lets say Jay bombs again in season 2.  Bruce goes up to the podium and says we had to let him go -- is the fan-media reaction going to be, you go Bruce, Jay was the problem, not you so nice job -- or Bruce this dude was part of your Tampa mafia, you said he had you at hello in the interview and you gave him a fat-long term contract which is rare for a rookie coach -- Bruce this is another bomb for you in your long list of bombs.

 

My point and I've made to you before -- Jay bombing IMO exposes the incompetence as opposed to protects the FO.  Yeah I get the whole player personnel component to the FO but hiring a head coach is a big, big deal, and if you flub it its a big, big mistake.  For all of Vinny's mistakes, it was ultimately the hire of Zorn that Dan said made him fire him. 

[RandyHolt]

Gruden's time here is a like a telemarketing call. Likely a brief event yet quickly littered with frustration and anger. 

 

It almost seems like our destiny, like we are cursed. For all the people that hated being called during dinner, our failing team is their revenge. This is the payback. Yes our owner is here because someone was dumb enough to buy his telemarketing company at the peak of the telecom bubble. He parlayed the profit into our current team, after angering likely millions of ordinary folk. It's our density.   Yes telemarketing was so bad the gov't had to intervene. Proof positive, it's the only thing both sides of the isle could ever agree on, which speaks volumes; noskinssuperbowl.gov donotcall.gov was born. 

 

Telemarketers had but a short time to do their thing. #NoHoneymoon. The odds of Gruden winning a super bowl in DC is about as likely as callers getting you to whip out your credit card. Close to nil. 

[veteranskinsfan]

I hope Coach Gruden makes some good decisions in the off season and the front office brings in 10-15 new players that have talent and these new players add speed to the offense and defense.   I hope the special teams unit gets fixed too and actually can get turnovers and learn how to do on side kicks too.  I think they will promote AJ Smith to General Manager and then we will find out if he is any good or not.

[Mad Mike]

No question we have a dirth of talent right across the roster. Starting and depth. Any regular sufferer of this shambles wold testify to that if they're honest. 

 

But when most EVERY player has not improved and, in MANY cases, regressed from even the historical ineptitude of last year; that's not a talent issue.That's a COACHING issue. We should, at the bare minimum, of seen progress within the group. Instead, we've gone BACKWARDS under him. A HCs job, REGARDLESS of the personnel he's given, is to coach them up and put them in positions to win. Neither of that has happened under this clown. 

 

To excuse piss poor, inept coaching in most ALL facets down to a lack of talent is getting beyond nauseating. 

 

Hail. 

 

I'm sorry but with all due respect for your long history here, the above post is insane.

 

We have more than THREE first round picks ties up in in a QB who quite frankly has SUCKED. How bad has he sucked? 

 

Redskins WR: RGIII could take food off our tables - NFL.com

 

 

However, the coach first dressed down the signal caller in private, per The Post, during a closed-door meeting the day after a preseason loss to the Baltimore Ravens in which Griffin completed just five passes, was sacked three times and threw an interception. One issue was Griffin taking bad sacks.

"That's never going to happen again -- my quarterback taking a six-yard loss when he could throw it away," Gruden said, in front of a room of RGIII's peers.

 

"Yes, sir," replied Griffin.

 

It did happen, however. Often.

 

Critiquing Griffin in private didn't seem to work, so Gruden took it public -- for better or worse.

 

Griffin's on-field play became so poor that at one point early in the season some offensive players grumbled about how the quarterback could cost them future big-money contracts.

 

"Man, this guy's going to wind up taking food off our tables," one unnamed receiver worried, per The Post.

 

If you cant see that the problem is... 

 

A: lack of talent from years of mismanagement and one tragedy.

B: A QB who was supposed to deliver 3 first round picks worth of talent but has only compounded the problem by playing like the WORST QB in the NFL.

 

... and NOT the coach, then I don't know what to tell you. I'll just pray for your football soul. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'm sorry but with all due respect for your long history here, the above post is insane.

 

We have more than THREE first round picks ties up in in a QB who quite frankly has SUCKED. How bad has he sucked? 

 

.....

 

If you cant see that the problem is... 

 

A) lack of talent from years of mismanagement and one tragedy.

A QB who was supposed to deliver 3 first round picks worth of talent but has only compounded the problem by playing like the WORST QB in the NFL.

 

... and NOT the coach, then I don't know what to tell you. I'll just pray for your football soul. 

 

So the only failure this year is 10? Or/ and EVERY other failure is on Robert too and stems from his poor play?

 

THAT'S the latest Gruden defense?

 

Hail. 

[planter]

I think that's true, Planter. The FO will give Gruden another year (unless they have a deal for Harbaugh), but I don't think it's the tackles as much as the interior....

Agree that our talent on the interior O line is weakest but the RT position is more important and we're not strong there either.

IMO, RG and RT should be improved immediately. Other O line positions probably need upgrading as well but practically speaking not in the same year.

Lich is passable and Lauvao might be given one more year to acclimate.

[theTruthTeller]

So the only failure this year is 10? Or/ and EVERY other failure is on Robert too and stems from his poor play?

 

THAT'S the latest Gruden defense?

 

Hail. 

C'mon GHH - get with the program.  Robert demanded that we spend three #1s and a #2 on him - based on what he cost, he should play at least three times as good as Manning and about 50 times as good as Brady.  If he did, we could score 100 points a game and the defense and ST wouldn't be an issue.  It's all Robert's fault.

[FrFan]

So the only failure this year is 10? Or/ and EVERY other failure is on Robert too and stems from his poor play?

 

THAT'S the latest Gruden defense?

 

Hail. 

Kyle says Hi there !

[Sea Bass]

I don't know. I sometimes think Snyder did get to be a milionaire (billionaire?) by accident.  It seems almost all of his other ventures have failed and even the Redskins which used to be the number 2 most profitable sports entity in the world is looking shabbier.

 

Snyder Communications was built with the funding and guidance of other people, including Mort Zuckerman and Fred Drasner.  

They even helped him buy the team.  Remember, Dan Snyder didn't buy the team.  It was Dan Snyder and a "group of investors."  Without them, he couldn't buy the team.

Dan had 2 ventures with Mort Zuckerman.

The first one was Dan working by himself with Mort's money.  It was called Campus USA, and it was a colossal failure.  He lost millions.

The second one was Snyder Communications.

There is a pattern here.  When Dan tries to run things himself, he fails.  When he steps back and lets the experts run things, he doesn't fail.

You would think he would apply that lesson and hire a real GM, but he doesn't.  

That's actually why Gruden didn't get a "honeymoon."

We wanted 2 things last offseason:

1. A real football GM

2. Jim Haslett out of here.

The first thing they did was keep Jim Haslett and name Bruce Allen as the GM.  That was when the honeymoon was over.

[Skinsinparadise]

Be interesting if things go down the way Chris Russell just said:  He expects the FO to push for Haz to go and likewise expects Jay to make a big stand against Haz going.    If so might be an interesting week coming up. 

[darrelgreenie]

And because between Mike,Kyle and Robert, they couldn't be truthful with each other, the relationship disintegrated.

They were good coaches and regardless of what happened with their relationship it could have been worked out IF Mike wasn't also bad with personnel, didn't win enough games, had a historically bad special teams unit and a near league worst defense and started leaking to the press. I feel like when you make boil down the reason for why those coaches are gone to a relationship issue you lose sight of the real factors.

[Mad Mike]

So the only failure this year is 10? Or/ and EVERY other failure is on Robert too and stems from his poor play?

 

THAT'S the latest Gruden defense?

 

Hail. 

 

Seems we have a failure in reading comprehension. I said:

 

 

A: lack of talent from years of mismanagement and one tragedy.

B: A QB who was supposed to deliver 3 first round picks worth of talent but has only compounded the problem by playing like the WORST QB in the NFL.

 

and before that, I said:

 

 

I keep saying this and no one seems to get it. It's not coaching that is killing us, it's lack of talent.

 

From the loss of Sean Taylor to the waste of roster and cap space that was Albert Haynesworth and the ensuing fiasco of the cap penalties, to the picks we traded to get RG3, we are STILL digging out of a hole.

 

And before someone starts talking about the talent we do have, yes we have some good talent in some places but we still have huge holes to fill both in star talent and depth. 

 

The horrific, abysmal, and at times stupid play of Griffin, who cost us THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS was just the (oversized) straw that broke the camels back. 

 

Seriously. If you cant see how badly griffin has cost this team with his combination of draft picks lost and incredibly horrible play, maybe you should just stick to Madden where one person with a controller in his hand can fix everything.

[darrelgreenie]

Our coaching search/interviews included: Ken Whisenhunt, Bill Cowher, Jon Gruden, Jay Gruden, Lovie Smith, David Shaw, Art Briles, Todd Bowles, Greg Roman, Kevin Sumlin, James Franklin, Jim Caldwell, Darrell Bevell.

In this list you have college coaches and NFL position coaches who could have gotten a promo at the next level. Most of them weren't even asking for the job, we tried and failed to convince them to sign. In the end all of them declined but Jay, and I bet Allen pulled the strings behind the curtain.

Not true. That wasn't the actual search list. The search list and the interview list are different. By all reports Allen - Gruden was a done deal and the HC search was a sham.

[FrFan]

Not true. That wasn't the actual search list. The search list and the interview list are different. By all reports Allen - Gruden was a done deal and the HC search was a sham.

Already interviewed:

• Seattle offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell.
• Carolina defensive coordinator Sean McDermott.
• Baltimore Ravens offensive coordinator Jim Caldwell.
• Dallas special teams coach Rich Bisaccia.
• UPDATED: New York Giant defensive coordinator Perry Fewell.

Requested permission to interview:

• Cincinnati offensive coordinator Jay Gruden.
• Cincinnati defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer.
• San Diego offensive coordinator Ken Whisenhunt (per CBS Sports).
• San Francisco offensive coordinator Greg Roman.
• Vanderbilt head coach James Franklin.
• San Francisco defensive coordinator Vic Fangio.

They just wasted so much time with so many because Jay was their pick from the get go.

He got only 3 interviews,  the Cards who wanted Arians and not him; Eagles who were set on Kelly and not on him either, and SD (McCoy). No risk he was signed by another team.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Seems we have a failure in reading comprehension. I said:

 

 

and before that, I said:

 

 

The horrific, abysmal, and at times stupid play of Griffin, who cost us THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS was just the (oversized) straw that broke the camels back. 

 

Seriously. If you cant see how badly griffin has cost this team with his combination of draft picks lost and incredibly horrible play, maybe you should just stick to Madden where one person with a controller in his hand can fix everything.

 

We have no 'failure' in anything. 

 

Most EVERYTHING you under pin with Robert and bring back to him. 

 

HOWEVER you try dress it up and throw something else in there. 

 

When most ALL players have regressed, when WE have regressed, that's NOT a talent issue. That's a COACHING issue. You honestly think those picks used on Robert would be making THAT much of a difference to this current shambles?

 

Again, no doubt we have a serious lack of top end talent on the playing side.

 

But we have EQUALLY as bad, if not worse, Coaching 'talent' from the head man on down.

 

Come back tomorrow when the final stats are in and I'll go through just HOW bad and just HOW much Gruden has regressed/ set this team back. And that's not to excuse Allen and co for the piss poor way this roster has been built either.

 

Hail.  

[nemocystem]

<p>

Already interviewed:

• Seattle offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell.
• Carolina defensive coordinator Sean McDermott.
• Baltimore Ravens offensive coordinator Jim Caldwell.
• Dallas special teams coach Rich Bisaccia.
• UPDATED: New York Giant defensive coordinator Perry Fewell.

Requested permission to interview:

• Cincinnati offensive coordinator Jay Gruden.
• Cincinnati defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer.
• San Diego offensive coordinator Ken Whisenhunt (per CBS Sports).
• San Francisco offensive coordinator Greg Roman.
• Vanderbilt head coach James Franklin.
• San Francisco defensive coordinator Vic Fangio.

Just wanting to clarify...

Are you illustrating DG's point? Cuz that seems to do the job pretty well...

Or are you trying to say that the "request to interview" list is somehow indicative (or really anyone on either list) of who the top brass actually wanted to attempt to bring in here?

Basically...do you believe that those lists are anything other than a dog & pony show intended to make fans believe they actually did anything other than what actually happened.....which was sign their Tampa lackey buddy buddy yes man?

[FrFan]

Just wanting to clarify...

My point was in the original post to say that the true smart worthy coaches will stay away from this mess of a franchise. What goes around comes around.

I do not deny the sham as darrelgreenie implied, but why bothering doing all these interviews/coaching search while you only want Jay from the get go ?.  Just be compliant with the minority rule and get the thing done, because as I stated above I don't think we had any real competition to face from the 3 other teams.

[Mad Mike]

We have no 'failure' in anything. 

 

Most EVERYTHING you under pin with Robert and bring back to him. 

 

HOWEVER you try dress it up and throw something else in there. 

 

When most ALL players have regressed, when WE have regressed, that's NOT a talent issue. That's a COACHING issue. You honestly think those picks used on Robert would be making THAT much of a difference to this current shambles?

 

Again, no doubt we have a serious lack of top end talent on the playing side.

 

But we have EQUALLY as bad, if not worse, Coaching 'talent' from the head man on down.

 

Come back tomorrow when the final stats are in and I'll go through just HOW bad and just HOW much Gruden has regressed/ set this team back. And that's not to excuse Allen and co for the piss poor way this roster has been built either.

 

Hail.  

 

Yeah, what difference would three productive first round picks instead of one completely unproductive one make. (where's that roll eyes smiley when you need it).

 

As for your claims of regression due to Gruden, they are a figment of your imagination. Its a claim you cannot prove in any way shape or form.

 

Meanwhile....

 

 

Griffin's on-field play became so poor that at one point early in the season some offensive players grumbled about how the quarterback could cost them future big-money contracts.

 

"Man, this guy's going to wind up taking food off our tables," one unnamed receiver worried, per The Post.

And once again... I have no animosity towards RG3. I hope he gets his act together and becomes the guy we all hoped we were drafting. But like Gruden, I don't care who the starter is as long as they play well.

[maxiep]

The players don't matter.  The coach doesn't matter.  The GM doesn't matter.  As long as The Danny is involved, we'll be a losing franchise.

 

Dan Snyder has robbed me of one of the great pleasures of my life.  My son's birthright was to be a Redskins' fan.  He could sing HTTR (chorus and verse) at the age of two.  That has been taken from him.  How could I in good conscience allow my son to experience this kind of pain and embarrassment when we live in Denver and he can root for his hometown team which has become the kind of organization we used to be?  It would be one thing to lose with class and dignity, but we're a freaking soap opera.  We're a punchline.  

 

I've been a Skins fan since I was four.  George Allen was our head coach and the Sonny/Billy debate was in full swing.  I have been a season ticket holder since I got off the wait list when we moved to FedEx, even though I no longer live in DC.  I spend thousands of dollars a year and hundreds of hours a year caring about a franchise that is a dysfunctional embarrassment.  I'd love to quit this team, but it's a part of me.  It's my family.  Part of me wishes they would change the name so I can think of my Skins as dead.  How f***ed up is that?  That is what Dan Snyder has done to me.   

 

It's not Gruden.  Bill Belichick couldn't win with our owner.  

[Laron Burgundy]

Yeah, what difference would three productive first round picks instead of one completely unproductive one make. (where's that roll eyes smiley when you need it).

 

As for your claims of regression due to Gruden, they are a figment of your imagination. Its a claim you cannot prove in any way shape or form.

 

Meanwhile....

 

And once again... I have no animosity towards RG3. I hope he gets his act together and becomes the guy we all hoped we were drafting. But like Gruden, I don't care who the starter is as long as they play well.

 

RG3 is in middle of his 3rd good game in a row and you're still bashing him as the worst qb in football.  Plenty of qb's have been worse.

 

Also, the picks we gave for RG3 ended up being the 5th worst LT in the league, one of the worst 43 OLB's, a below average defensive tackle, and a slightly above average corner.  Yes, I'm not too worried about missing out on that bunch, especially because the best of the bunch is a malcontent.