The RG3 trade really really hurt...

[Alexa]

I don't really care who made the deal. It wasn't smart. Now, what can they do moving forward? First thing is he has to get healthy and get back on the field. Personally, I think Gruden needs to make some adjustments and meet somewhere in the middle. Run some spread, some RO, some Chip Kelly and some pocket stuff. Gruden has to adjust to RG3's type of game. That's what a good coach does. That crap he ran against Houston was Mark Brunell part 2.  However, Griffin can't act all high and mighty, think he's Aaron Rodgers and just want to be a pocket guy. He's not that guy and he needs to realize that as well. They both need to meet somewhere  in the middle.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Alexa is right on. I remember someone asking Don Shula about his success. Shula said," I find out what a guy does best and then I let him do it." Seems the Redskins think they can make RG3 a pocket passer like Brady and it is possible but it takes a lot of time, like 3-4 years. In the meantime I would like to see some RO. Guys get hurt in the pocket as well as downfield.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Yup, we love cramming guys into roles they're not really fit for.

 

Let's replace our 295 lb. run stopping DE with a 240 lb. pass rushing specialist and then tell that guy that we're going to move him to 4-3 outside linebacker the next year, a position he's never played in his 12 years in the league. Let's trade the league's best corner for a one-cut ZBS running back and ask him to gain 20 pounds and become the next John Riggins. Let's use three first round picks and a 2nd on Robert Griffin and break him mentally and physically in one year and then try to turn him into Tom Brady.

[Oregon Ducks Fan]

So no, I don't think the RG3 trade really hurt. I think that if I want a house in the nice neighborhood, I've got to expect to pay a high mortgage. Some of my neighbors may have gotten their house on foreclosure, but that's not the standard way of getting a nice house. Same goes with getting franchise QBs. Those draft picks are just the cost of doing business when the house we fell in love with is RG3 and its rights are owned by the St. Louis Rams.

 

But what if you pay a lot for a house in the nice neighborhood, and that house had a history of a leaky roof that required major repairs in the past? You saddled yourself with a high mortgage and after enjoying your nice house for most of the first year and throwing some nice parties that impressed your friends and neighbors it turned out the roof needed more repairs and it hasn't been the same since. And after thinking you finally got the roof fixed at the beginning of this year then the plumbing in the basement sprung a leak and now you have had to live in a mobile home you bought the same year as the house while the plumbing and water damage are being repaired. Yet you are still stuck paying the high mortgage. Would the house still seem like a good investment, and would you still love it as much as when you first bought it?

 

Washington traded the 6th and 39th picks in 2012, the 22nd pick in 2013, and the 2nd pick in 2014 to move up to the 2nd pick in 2012. If they had not done that trade, and to keep things simple had not traded to get even more picks like the Rams did and had just used those four picks, they could have used them like this:

2012

6th pick: choice of Luke Kuechly (Pro Bowl LB) OR Dontari Poe (Pro Bowl NT) OR Alshon Jeffery (6'3" Pro Bowl WR)

39th pick: choice of Russell Wilson OR Nick Foles

2013

22nd pick: choice of Desmond Trufant (CB) OR Cordarrelle Patterson (Pro Bowl WR/KR) OR Travis Frederick © OR Zach Ertz (TE) OR Kiko Alonzo (LB)

2014

2nd pick: choice of anyone in the first round except Jadeveon Clowney. (Greg Robinson, Blake Bortles, Sammy Watkins, Khalil Mack, Jake Matthews, MIke Evans, Justin Gilbert, Anthony Barr, Eric Ebron, Taylor Lewan, Odell Beckham Jr., Aaron Donald, Kyle Fuller, Ryan Shazier, Zack Martin, C.J. Mosley, Calvin Pryor, Ja'Wuan James, Brandin Cooks, Ha Ha Clinton Dix, Johnny Manziel, Dee Ford, Darqueze Dennard, Jason Verrett, Marcus Smith, Deone Bucannon, Kelvin Benjamin, Dominique Easley, Jimmy Ward, Bradley Roby, Teddy Bridgewater, Xavier Su'a-Filo)

So each person has to decide if the team is better off in 2014 with one player - RGIII, who is not currently able to play - or instead of RGIII either Russell Wilson or Nick Foles, plus any two players - even the worst two players - from the following: Desmond Trufant, Luke Kuechly, Dontari Poe, Alshon Jeffery, Cordarrelle Patterson, Travis Frederick, Zach Ertz, or Kiko Alonzo, plus any player in the 2014 draft except Jadeveon Clowney.

 

Now before someone says that no one could have known all of those 2012 and 2013 players were going to be good, somebody knew, since all of them were drafted by teams that saw something in them worth drafting. It shows the importance of having a good scouting department and front office, and hoarding draft picks that they can use to build the strongest team overall, since as the article quoted earlier pointed out, mega trades rarely work out for the team that trades multiple valuable first or second round draft picks for one "impact" player.

 

[Thinking Skins]

But what if you pay a lot for a house in the nice neighborhood, and that house had a history of a leaky roof that required major repairs in the past? You saddled yourself with a high mortgage and after enjoying your nice house for most of the first year and throwing some nice parties that impressed your friends and neighbors it turned out the roof needed more repairs and it hasn't been the same since. And after thinking you finally got the roof fixed at the beginning of this year then the plumbing in the basement sprung a leak and now you have had to live in a mobile home you bought the same year as the house while the plumbing and water damage are being repaired. Yet you are still stuck paying the high mortgage. Would the house still seem like a good investment, and would you still love it as much as when you first bought it?

First, let me say thanks for sticking with the analogy. And I'll say that in terms of house purchases, if you think that once you get the repairs done that you can still sell it for the going rate then you've done well. If the house has an un-repairable roof or basement, then you got got.

So each person has to decide if the team is better off in 2014 with one player - RGIII, who is not currently able to play - or instead of RGIII either Russell Wilson or Nick Foles, plus any two players - even the worst two players - from the following: Desmond Trufant, Luke Kuechly, Dontari Poe, Alshon Jeffery, Cordarrelle Patterson, Travis Frederick, Zach Ertz, or Kiko Alonzo, plus any player in the 2014 draft except Jadeveon Clowney.

 

Now before someone says that no one could have known all of those 2012 and 2013 players were going to be good, somebody knew, since all of them were drafted by teams that saw something in them worth drafting. It shows the importance of having a good scouting department and front office, and hoarding draft picks that they can use to build the strongest team overall, since as the article quoted earlier pointed out, mega trades rarely work out for the team that trades multiple valuable first or second round draft picks for one "impact" player.

The problem I have with this is its hindsight drafting. There's no way of knowing that we would have gotten Wilson or Foles. Word is we were high on Tannehill, which means we'd be likely in this same spot again a few years later.

I mean, we drafted Kerrigan over Watt, so who is to say we wouldn't do something similar and draft a guy who's a good player and miss out on the players you mention? I mean we drafted Jenkins, and Hankerson as well....and lets not talk about our OL drafts. The problem could well be our scouting department and a lack of faith in their ability to pick non-sure things as picks, which makes the RG3 trade even more worthwhile.

I think that if we want to "accurately" judge how we'd pick, its probably best to assume we have all our draft picks over that period and just say we randomly pick a player who is drafted within the next X (say 15-30) slots. That's about the most accurate way we can get without knowing anything about draft boards and who the team had ranked above who else. Cause in hindsight its easy to pick an optimal draft. But in hindsignt we'd draft Tom Brady over Lavar Arrington. Didn't happen that way though.

[FrFan]

I think you mean King Mike (Shanahan). 

Shanahan Wanted Tannehill, Not RGIII

[GibbsFactor]

 

Oh please.  Not having a GM who builds a team is what hurts.

 

 

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

 

Bruce Allen is a joke.  We have full proof with his replay challenges this year.   He's a silver spoon fed footballer that has no clue what he's doing and only is where he is because of his father.  He's George W Bush of NFL GMs.

 

Snyder did what he said.  He stepped back.  The problem is that he stepped back for the wrong people.   Get a real GM in here and maybe we can start winning again.

[You'reNext]

I don't really care who made the deal. It wasn't smart. Now, what can they do moving forward? First thing is he has to get healthy and get back on the field. Personally, I think Gruden needs to make some adjustments and meet somewhere in the middle. Run some spread, some RO, some Chip Kelly and some pocket stuff. Gruden has to adjust to RG3's type of game. That's what a good coach does. That crap he ran against Houston was Mark Brunell part 2.  However, Griffin can't act all high and mighty, think he's Aaron Rodgers and just want to be a pocket guy. He's not that guy and he needs to realize that as well. They both need to meet somewhere  in the middle.

 

Why would you bring in Gruden when the QB you have is a spread guy?

Seems pretty simplistic that you should hire a coach that would fit your franchise QB.

[sempre_victrix]

This team, for almost as long as I can remember, has gone for the flashy pick or free agent, rather than with an eye to building a solid team for years to come.  For as long as we have sucked, we should have had a beast of a team from all the ealy draft picks, but we continue to fail on draft day or free agency.

 

Snyder needs more than a 20 minute plan as to how to get us to the playoffs.

[Chachie]

Shanahan Wanted Tannehill, Not RGIII

 

 

 

I tried to make this point in another thread and got roasted over hateful flames. I think someone even called me a liar.

 

Anyway, Tannehill would have been even worse so I guess the point is moot.

[drtdrums]

It is 100% fact that Tannehill would be our QB if RG3 wasn't. This is pretty well-established by our insiders.

[skins/psu1981]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

 

Bruce Allen is a joke.  We have full proof with his replay challenges this year.   He's a silver spoon fed footballer that has no clue what he's doing and only is where he is because of his father.  He's George W Bush of NFL GMs.

 

Snyder did what he said.  He stepped back.  The problem is that he stepped back for the wrong people.   Get a real GM in here and maybe we can start winning again.

It just drives me nuts about this. Let's be honest about this, Snyder is not a dumb man. He knows what it takes to build a consistent and winning franchise. He has been a rabid fan of the Skins since he was a child, so his overall motivation you would think is to win championships. So why does he do the opposite of everything that is needed to sustain a successful franchise...over and over and over again? He knows having buddies operate his team is a full recipe for disaster. I'm sure the other companies he owns (sixflags,etc) operates on a business model similar to a consistent winning football team, so why does he not utilize the same ideas he does for his other companies and instead uses the Redskins as his fun little experiment going completely wrong!

[abdcskins]

By the way, I never understood the logic of people who claim we only gave up two-first rounders and a second.  No, we gave up three first rounders.  There is no way around it.  We didn't keep the pick we already had in the 2012 draft, we traded it.

[Oregon Ducks Fan]

The problem I have with this is its hindsight drafting. There's no way of knowing that we would have gotten Wilson or Foles. Word is we were high on Tannehill, which means we'd be likely in this same spot again a few years later.

I mean, we drafted Kerrigan over Watt, so who is to say we wouldn't do something similar and draft a guy who's a good player and miss out on the players you mention? I mean we drafted Jenkins, and Hankerson as well....and lets not talk about our OL drafts. The problem could well be our scouting department and a lack of faith in their ability to pick non-sure things as picks, which makes the RG3 trade even more worthwhile.

I think that if we want to "accurately" judge how we'd pick, its probably best to assume we have all our draft picks over that period and just say we randomly pick a player who is drafted within the next X (say 15-30) slots. That's about the most accurate way we can get without knowing anything about draft boards and who the team had ranked above who else. Cause in hindsight its easy to pick an optimal draft. But in hindsignt we'd draft Tom Brady over Lavar Arrington. Didn't happen that way though.

 

There is rarely a player who is a sure thing in the draft. There is uncertainty in drafting, or else there wouldn't be draft busts or pleasant surprises like Tom Brady. So a better analogy than buying a house is investing in stocks. There is uncertainty there too. A stock could be a big winner or a big loser. One of the fundamental principles of investing is diversification AKA don't put all of your eggs in one basket. By diversifying you reduce your risk and limit your losses if a stock is a dud, and increase the chances that you will buy a stock that will pay off. If you are not going to diversify and instead are going to put all of your eggs in one basket, you'd better have superior research and understanding of the market. Since you are suggesting that the Redskins have the opposite of superior research and understanding of the market of draft prospects, diversification would have been their best strategy. Instead, they made a big bet on RGIII.

[PeterMP]

I tried to make this point in another thread and got roasted over hateful flames. I think someone even called me a liar.

 

Anyway, Tannehill would have been even worse so I guess the point is moot.

 

Okay, but it isn't like Stephen A. Smith has a good track record of breaking NFL stories, and even the people that who get paid to do that are wrong quite a bit.

 

So your left with asking yourself is it reasonable that Mike Shanahan would allow the owner to dictate something like that to him, which if it didn't work is going to derail not only his career, but his son's career.

 

Or is it more reasonable that Stephen A. Smith was wrong and/or got lied to.

[Chachie]

Okay, but it isn't like Stephen A. Smith has a good track record of breaking NFL stories, and even the people that who get paid to do that are wrong quite a bit.

 

So your left with asking yourself is it reasonable that Mike Shanahan would allow the owner to dictate something like that to him, which if it didn't work is going to derail not only his career, but his son's career.

 

Or is it more reasonable that Stephen A. Smith was wrong and/or got lied to.

 

 

 

Smith was not the source I had gotten that story from. I can't back anything up because I can't remember or find the source I had read.

 

Like I said though, I'm not for one second making the claim that Tannehill would have served us better then either Griffin or Cousins has. In fact, I think if Tannehill had come to DC, his career would be over by now. As bad as I think he'd have been for the Redskins, the Redskins would have been even worse for him.

 

 

Also- I'm not left asking myself anything. If you believe Snyder's not still making the decisions, perhaps you have some soul-searching to do.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I tried to make this point in another thread and got roasted over hateful flames. I think someone even called me a liar.

Anyway, Tannehill would have been even worse so I guess the point is moot.

That's because it was unsubstantiated and came out just in time for the smear Griffin 2013 season as Griffin is geared up to return from a devastating injury. It makes sense to put that nugget out there so just in case it all goes to hell, see, I didn't want this guy. See, he's tight with the owner, see etc etc

Shanahan had full control of football decisions from Day 1, is a known massive ego maniac and control freak yet on the biggest decision of his entire tenure and what would ultimately make or break both his HOF chances and his career with the Redskins, he let Snyder step in and trade for Griffin?

No, I don't believe it, not for a second because it doesn't make any sense with what we know of Shanahan and Snyder since Shanahan came on.

[Thinking Skins]

There is rarely a player who is a sure thing in the draft.

That's what made the 2012 draft so different. Luck, and later RG3 were deemed sure fire picks, the best picks at QB since Peyton Manning. That's why teams were willing to suck so badly for them, or in our case trade up for them. The thing about even "sure fire" picks is that they don't take into account injury and the injury (injuries) to RG3 can shorten his career, but he showed in his rookie year that he could be the player we expected.

IMO, RG3's value isn't about Luck or Wilson or Foles because in hindsight there's almost always a deal you can make that would've been better. I bought a house for what I thought was a low rate, then I talked to my neighbor who purchased a few months after me and he told me about how his seller was giving him a hard time so he sat and watched the housing market rates drop while he negotiated. It doesn't suddenly make me feel like my interest rate is "bad". I could have gotten a better one, but the fact is that I could afford to pay what I paid.

The Skins are the same way. They could afford to pay what they paid. They paid a hefty price, but I want to know the cost of the alternative - and the alternative is drafting another Patrick Ramsey, and another Jason Campbell and another Kirk Cousins and another Gibron Hamden, and another Jordan Palmer, and basically keep drafing QBs until we get one.

My conjecture is that we would have still spent the equal number of high draft picks (if not more) on a franchise QB over the lifetime that RG3 is in DC, so either way we'd lose those picks looking for a franchise QB. So I'd rather give them up up-front for what's as close to a sure thing as we've seen in a long time.

[Zazzaro703]

Why would you bring in Gruden when the QB you have is a spread guy?

Seems pretty simplistic that you should hire a coach that would fit your franchise QB.

Sticking to this, why would you hire an offensive and defensive coordinator before hiring your coach (Zorn). Then why would you do it again retaining Haslett before hiring Gruden? It's because our front office is full of fools and has been for decades. This is where Snyder gets it wrong over and over again. There is no cap on the front office, Bring in the best minds in the business and pay them the fortune the will demand to even consider taking this job which has to be one of the most frowned upon positions in all of sports because Dan has made it that way. There is no reason for the Redskins to not have the best front office, scouts, everything that isn't under the salary cap in the league. However, with the complete dysfunction that has gone on here for years, the best minds in the business probably would never come here now.

[dsciambi]

I tried to make this point in another thread and got roasted over hateful flames. I think someone even called me a liar.

 

Anyway, Tannehill would have been even worse so I guess the point is moot.

 

Can you really say that as a fact though? The Dolphins are just marginally less dysfunctional than we are. Surround Tannehill with some actual talent and maybe he doesn't look so bad.

 

I think a lot of QB's get written off as "bad" because they're on bad teams. It retards their growth as an NFL QB until they eventually wash out of the league. Take a mediocre quarterback like Kaepernick and put him on a loaded team and you can go to the Super Bowl. When that talent starts to leave, he suddenly looks bad. Is that a coincidence?

[Chachie]

Can you really say that as a fact though? The Dolphins are just marginally less dysfunctional than we are. Surround Tannehill with some actual talent and maybe he doesn't look so bad.

 

I think a lot of QB's get written off as "bad" because they're on bad teams. It retards their growth as an NFL QB until they eventually wash out of the league. Take a mediocre quarterback like Kaepernick and put him on a loaded team and you can go to the Super Bowl. When that talent starts to leave, he suddenly looks bad. Is that a coincidence?

 

 

 

I can say one thing that's as close to fact as I can get because it's definitely not UNproven- If you come to Dan Snyder's Washington Redskins, you can bet your career will be buried there. Talent around you or not.

That's because it was unsubstantiated and came out just in time for the smear Griffin 2013 season as Griffin is geared up to return from a devastating injury. It makes sense to put that nugget out there so just in case it all goes to hell, see, I didn't want this guy. See, he's tight with the owner, see etc etc

Shanahan had full control of football decisions from Day 1, is a known massive ego maniac and control freak yet on the biggest decision of his entire tenure and what would ultimately make or break both his HOF chances and his career with the Redskins, he let Snyder step in and trade for Griffin?

No, I don't believe it, not for a second because it doesn't make any sense with what we know of Shanahan and Snyder since Shanahan came on.

 

 

 

Shanahan was TOLD he had full control from day one. Apparently Shanahan and a lot of fans like yourself believed that. Do you think he really wanted Donovan McNabb? He sure never for one day acted like he did.

 

Stop believing the hype. If Snyder wants it to happen there is nothing any coach or GM can do to stop it.

[Mursilis]

I can say one thing that's as close to fact as I can get because it's definitely not UNproven- If you come to Dan Snyder's Washington Redskins, you can bet your career will be buried there. Talent around you or not.

 

 

 

Shanahan was TOLD he had full control from day one. Apparently Shanahan and a lot of fans like yourself believed that. Do you think he really wanted Donovan McNabb? He sure never for one day acted like he did.

 

Stop believing the hype. If Snyder wants it to happen there is nothing any coach or GM can do to stop it.

 

Shanahan had a proven history of player personnel blunders before he got here.  The fact that personnel blunders continued after he arrived doesn't suggest he was innocent in all that. 

[SkinsHokieFan]

It just drives me nuts about this. Let's be honest about this, Snyder is not a dumb man. He knows what it takes to build a consistent and winning franchise. He has been a rabid fan of the Skins since he was a child, so his overall motivation you would think is to win championships. So why does he do the opposite of everything that is needed to sustain a successful franchise...over and over and over again? He knows having buddies operate his team is a full recipe for disaster. I'm sure the other companies he owns (sixflags,etc) operates on a business model similar to a consistent winning football team, so why does he not utilize the same ideas he does for his other companies and instead uses the Redskins as his fun little experiment going completely wrong!

 

Here is a small news flash

 

His other business operations do NOT operate in a winning way. Six Flags was a disaster under Snyder. Johnny Rockets? Meh. The movie thing with Tom Cruise, is that still around?

 

Snyder being a "great businessman" is a myth. The guy essentially hit the lottery twice during the .com bubble of the 1990s with Snyder Communcations (which one day LKB and I will find out what the hell it did and how Snyder got investors for it) and then with purchasing the Redskins in 1999. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

By the way, I never understood the logic of people who claim we only gave up two-first rounders and a second. No, we gave up three first rounders. There is no way around it. We didn't keep the pick we already had in the 2012 draft, we traded it.

It's semantics.

We traded 3 1sts and a second and got a First back, which became Griffin

The net loss of picks was 3, 2 firsts and a second.

The argument is silly because everybody is right.

It's just semantics. But the facts are in stone: they flipped 1's in 2012, gave up 3 picks.

[Chachie]

Shanahan had a proven history of player personnel blunders before he got here.  The fact that personnel blunders continued after he arrived doesn't suggest he was innocent in all that. 

 

 

Innocent isn't the phrase I was going for. Also- I don't want anyone to think I wish that Shanny was still in DC. I'm just not buying the old "Snyder stays out of the mix" BS that the rest of you are blindly holding onto in hopes that the direction of the franchise will change. He's not and it won't until he sells.