bradboyd80 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 .....it's no coincidence that Dallas leads the league in rushing due to spending "non-flashy" early round picks on talented offensive linemen recently. Your QB doesn't need to be a superstar in this league to win, but he does need to stay upright. People really beat up on the Cowboys for those picks (me included); but I said this in another thread as well. The Cowboys spent 1st round picks in consecutive years on a beast of an offensive lineman (Fredrick and Martin) and its paying dividends already. I sure hope our projects develop, but still wouldn't mind seeing us mimic that approach either. There is no telling how good RG3 "could" be with a good offensive line, or just good pass blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraze4Cousins Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/TMQWeekFour140930/robert-griffin-iii-blaine-gabbert-why-mega-trades-work-nfl-tuesday-morning-quarterback another opinion on mega trades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger.Staubach Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The RG3 trade isn't the problem imo. Getting hit with that salary cap restriction at the last minute is what really hurt. While I agree that the penalty hurt, not having the cancer that was Haynesworth was probably a small blessing. That dude was a douche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Screen Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I don't know if this has been addressed but the Rams, who received those 3 extra picks are as bad if not worse than the Skins. They had 2 number 1 picks in 2013 and 2014 and an extra 2nd in 2012 and it hasn't paid any dividends for them. I don't know why people are constantly bringing this up. It's completely irrelevant what the Rams have done with the picks we gave them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Paint Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 People really beat up on the Cowboys for those picks (me included); but I said this in another thread as well. The Cowboys spent 1st round picks in consecutive years on a beast of an offensive lineman (Fredrick and Martin) and its paying dividends already. I sure hope our projects develop, but still wouldn't mind seeing us mimic that approach either. There is no telling how good RG3 "could" be with a good offensive line, or just good pass blocking. The problem with the Fredrick pick was most scouting reports had him as a 3rd or 4th round pick. Even if he plays at a probowl level, Dallas probably should've waited at least until the 2nd round to pick him up. He would've been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The problem with the Fredrick pick was most scouting reports had him as a 3rd or 4th round pick. Even if he plays at a probowl level, Dallas probably should've waited at least until the 2nd round to pick him up. He would've been there. But you have no idea where he was on other teams boards. People constantly act like you could get a guy later based on some random dudes draft rankings when NFL teams have proven over and over again they rate players differently than draft gurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyvern Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I think the trade was costly, and it definitely wound up having an impact on how effectively the Skins team could be rebuilt. Now for a long post in support of that thinking. BACKGROUND: The Redskins, especially under the early years Snyder, tended to favor free agency over building through the draft. That usually meant the Skins would consider giving up future draft picks in their pursuit of free agents, trades, etc. This tendency must have influenced the Snyder-led front office when they decided they still needed a "franchise" QB of the future, -- as you recall they traded up for Campbell. Part of this was the valid desire for a quality QB prospect -- but more importantly it was important for Snyder to have a "marketable" quality player. And what better way to make the case the Skins had acquired a franchise quality player, than pointing to the price it cost to obtain the player?(Unfortunately, Campbell turned out to be less than what Snyder and his coaches were looking for; the search was on again.) GRIFFIN: Coming out of college, Griffin was ten times more marketable than any Skins QB of the Snyder era. Besides glowing college credentials, Griffin had loads of highlight reel plays, eye-popping speed, and an engaging/charismatic personality. This was a mega-watt star QB, available -- if the Redskins could beat all offers. That is why in the end, price was no object. A mega-deal for a mega-star. But the unanticipated cap penalty changed the fortunes of all involved. It meant that after the Skins had mortgaged a portion of their future, they would not be able to bring in enough quality free agents to fill in gaps and to provide Griffin with the talent he needed to star in the NFL The following quickly became apparent: 1. While gifted athletically, Griffin would need time (and quality teammates) to accustom himself to running the Shanahan offense, and diagnosing NFL defenses. 2. The aging patchwork O-line would not be able to give Griffin the time he needed to find his receivers, and the receivers needed a lot of time to get open. 3. There would be no quality free agents brought in to remedy the talent gaps -- and the sagging defense would mean even more pressure on the already challenged offense. 4. While Griffin had the talent to carry a lot of the load for his team-mates, his doing so would challenge his ability to avoid injury. Considering the state of the offensive line and it's inability to support a traditional pocket passing offense, the 'read option' soon became the only passing option for the Shanahans. It's newness caught defenses off guard, and opened things for Shanahan running plays. But it was a risky tactic, and while it got the Skins into the playoffs, it wound up costing Griffin. How do you weight the good parts of Griffin's 2012 season into assessing his overall NFL performance? I feel those discussions are still subjective; but one cannot help but be concerned for how well Griffin has fared since 2012. Right now, it's still not clear how well Griffin has truly recovered from his 2012 injury (or how much time he lost in 2013 effectively rehabbing into playing shape) or how much that his recovery-process hurt his chances to better accustom himself to the NFL level of offense and defense. We just can't evaluate Griffins progress from his shortened 2014 season. One thing for certain, what transpired in 2014 did not help to alleviate lingering durability concerns. Moreover, if he does come back this year, Griffin will still have to rely on essentially the same O-line protection -- and won't be able to fall back so often on the read option as a solution. (Well, at least his receivers are better.) ASSESSING THE TRADE: It's hard to to consider how the trade has not been a contributing factor to the current state of that the defensive backfield, the offensive line, and special teams. Those two first-rounders, and the one second rounder given up by Washington to swap first round picks with St. Louis could have yielded three quality starters. And considering Griffin's durability issues may jeopardize how long he plays in the NFL -- the trade may even have a higher price tag. Nothing is settled yet, and Griffin has the talent and drive to rebound from all this adversity. However, I can't dismiss the arguments of those folks judging the trade as a bad one for Washington. I can only hope that fate starts being kind Griffin to give him the opportunity to achieve his great potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The reality is the trade wouldn't have happened if the cap penalty would've been enforced at a timely manner. The NFL handled it very poorly and Mara essentially handicapped an opponent in what was one of the most blatant displays of cheating by an NFL owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The reality is the trade wouldn't have happened if the cap penalty would've been enforced at a timely manner. There is absolutely no reason to believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 There is absolutely no reason to believe that. You can't be serious? There's no way we would've parted with those picks if we knew what kind of cap situation we would've been in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 You can't be serious? There's no way we would've parted with those picks if we knew what kind of cap situation we would've been in. Yep, I am. There is no reason to think they wouldn't make that trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Yep, I am. There is no reason to think they wouldn't make that trade. Unless I'm mistaken many of the insiders even said they wouldn't have made the deal if they knew about the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 What really hurts is this teams inability to draft well (LeReibeus, Rambo, Bolser) and hire competent personnel (Hazlett, Burns, Gruden). The fish rots from the head down to the beverage concessions (literally). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 What really hurts is this teams inability to draft well (LeReibeus, Rambo, Bolser) and hire competent personnel (Hazlett, Burns, Gruden). The fish rots from the head down to the beverage concessions (literally). Rambo and Bolser were picked in the sixth and seventh round. They weren't going to make much of a difference lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Rambo and Bolser were picked in the sixth and seventh round. They weren't going to make much of a difference lol ok how about Phillip Thomas, Brandon Jenkins, Jawan Jamison, Chris Thompson, Adam Gettis, Mo Hurt, Markus White. Dejon Gomes, Evan Royster, Brandon Thompson, Selvish Capers, Terrence Austin, Eric Cooke, Dennis Morris That's just a small sample of draft fails from 2010-2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 ok how about Phillip Thomas, Brandon Jenkins, Jawan Jamison, Chris Thompson, Adam Gettis, Mo Hurt, Markus White. Dejon Gomes, Evan Royster, Brandon Thompson, Selvish Capers, Terrence Austin, Eric Cooke, Dennis Morris That's just a small sample of draft fails from 2010-2014. I think Thomas is the only one picked in the first four rounds from that list. You can come up with a list like that for pretty much everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 So if we would have kept all of those picks from the first two rounds.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 On the other hand, our hit rate really is too low. If our scouting was better than the impact of the trade would be even smaller. Getting Morris was a coup, but we need more players to emerge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyvern Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Actually, the Skins percentages tend to drop off with the later round picks. The Skins usually find someone decent in the first round. They are a little more "iffy" in the second round -- but since 2008 have been fairly reliable there too. Now round three and later.... It's definitely been uneven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Initially I refused to respond to this thread because ( i) its simply re-hashing old arguments that we had at the time of the trade ( ii) the person starting it is a known Cousins supporter and RG3 basher and so I felt this was an indirect attempt to say that RG3 will never become an elite QB. But when supporters mention that possibility, then they'd be told "hey, this thread isn't about RG3's possibility of success, its about what we gave up". (iii) The Giants game was depressing Those things being said, I did want to give some comments. - The first argument is about what the Rams did with the picks vs what we could have done with the picks. Lets look at the QBs that we could have gotten had we not made the trade: 2012 Draft Tannehill - 36 Starts, 730 Completions, 1227 Attempts, 8109 Yards, 42 TDs, 33 INTs, Record 17-19 as a starter. Ruling after 2 years is that he's shown little to show that he can become a franchise QB Brandon Weeden - 20 Starts, 438 Completions, 784 Attempts, 5116 Yards, 23 TDs, 26 INTs, Record 5-15 as a starter. Ruling after 2 years is that he is DEFINITELY NOT a franchise QB. Russell Wilson - 35 Starts, 569 Completions, 887 Attempts, 7126 Yards, 58 TDs, 20 INTs, 26-0 as a starter, Ruling after 2 years is that he is DEFINITELY a franchise QB. Nick Foles - 20 Starts, 460 Completions, 748 Attempts, 5673 Yards, 39 TDs, 11 INTs, 12-8 as a starter, Ruling after 2 years is that he is likely a franchise QB, or at least shows promise. The rest of the QBs from the 2012 draft have so few starts that its all undetermined whether they can be a franchise QB or not, but they haven't shown that they're ready to lead a team yet, let alone be a franchise QB. An alternative option would have been for us to have gone into the 2012 season with Grossman as our starter again, and drafted a QB in the 2013 Draft 2013 Draft: EJ Manuel - 14 Starts, 256 Completions, 437 Attempts, 2810 Yards, 16 TDs, 12 INTs, 6-8 Record as a starter. Ruling after 1 year is that its unlikely he's the franchise QB. He was recently benched for Kyle Orton, who was brought in and signed to a $5 Million contract because they were so uncertain about Manuel. Geno Smith - 20 Starts, 329 Completions, 579 Attempts, 3968 Yards, 16 TDs, 26 INTs, 9-11 Record as a starter. Ruling after 1 year is undetermined, but he does show signs that he could be a franchise QB. Mike Glennon - 14 Starts, 285 Completions, 482 Attempts, 3031 Yards, 22 TDs, 10 INTs, 5-9 Record as a starter. Ruling after 1 year is undetermined, but looks promising. New coaching staff did replace him with McCown but started him today and he looked good. Like 2012, the remaining of the QBs drafted started so few games that its hard to determine their potential. There's always the option of giving Rex a third year, and drafting a QB in 2014. So who was drafted in this past offseason? 2014 Draft Blake Bortels Johnny Manziel Teddy Bridgewater Derek Carr Jimmy Garoppolo All of those guys are really young so I won't talk about their stats yet, but I wanted to include them in the conversation. Then there's the option of free agency or trades. Franchise QBs RARELY change teams, but it has been done in the past (the famous example is Drew Brees). So lets ask what QBs changed teams in the past few years that could have possibly sured up our QB position. 2012 Offseason Peyton Manning. We didn't stand a chance in this one as he hand picked the team he wanted and EVERY team without a franchise QB would have wanted him as their franchise QB. Matt Flynn. This is the guy that had the 480 yard passing game going into the 2012 offseason that got him the big contract with Seattle. He has shown that he is NOT a franchise QB. Chad Henne - Not a franchise QB Jason Campbell - Not a franchise QB Kyle Orton - Not a franchise QB David Garrard - Not a franchise QB Shaun Hill - Not a franchise QB Vince Young - Not a franchise QB Rex Grossman - Not a franchise QB 2013 Offseason Alex Smith. After leading SF to the NFC Championship game and an undefeated record before being injured in 2012, Smith was traded in the 2013 offseason to the Chiefs. He has led them to a positive record, but I think few will try to argue that Smith is a franchise QB. Tim Tebow - Not a franchise QB Kevin Kolb - Not a franchise QB Matt Moore - Not a franchise QB Ryan Fitzpatrick - Not a franchise QB Matt Cassel - Not a franchise QB Matt Hasselbeck - Not a franchise QB 2014 Offseason Josh McCown - Not a franchise QB Michael Vick - Not a franchise QB Matt Cassel - Not a franchise QB Shaun Hill - Not a franchise QB Mark Sanchez - Not a franchise QB I may be leaving out a name here or there, but the point is that Shanny and Allen made a decision in 2012 to address a position that has escaped us for my entire life, unless you want to call Joe T. a franchise QB. The reality of the situation surrounding this trade is that there were VERY few franchise QBs available to us, as there almost never are. As much as I disagree with using FA as our primary resource to build this team, there is something to be said about the quality of players you can get at LG, C, RG, RT, WR, RB, TE, DE, DT, NT, OLB, ILB, CB, FS, SS, K, P through free agency and or low draft picks. But you ALMOST NEVER see quality QBs change teams like that. Thats why everybody clings to Drew Brees like that as their only example. Its the same reason why people cling to Tom Brady as the example of low round draft picks at QB who can become super bowl winners. It just doesn't happen. These cases (Brady and Brees) are the exceptions, not the norm. The norm is that if you want a franchise QB you've got to spend a high draft pick - which generally means a first rounder. Sometimes you can get like Seattle and luck into a third rounder who has it all, but what's more likely is that if you're only willing to spend second rounders on QBs you wind up with the Miami Dolphins: 2012 - Tannehill 2009 - Pat White 2008 - Chad Henne 2007 - John Beck Or the Cleveland Browns 2014 - Johnny Manziel 2012 - Brandon Weeden 2010 - Colt McCoy 2007 - Brady Quinn 2005 - Charlie Frye 2004 - Luke McCown RG3 was considered as just under as sure a thing in the draft as possible, just behind Andrew Luck who went #1 overall that year. We've had our own carousel of rookie QBs come through here, so I can certainly get behind the idea of trying to go all in on whats considered a sure thing. Now if RG3's injuries are what limit him from reaching his potential, I won't look back at this with regret because we went in knowing it was a gamble, but it wasn't like RG3 came in and did a Tim Couch, he's proved to be exactly what we thought he'd be ON THE FIELD. The 2012 year showed that it wasn't a mistake drafting this guy or that the scouting reports weren't incorrect. The problem has been his knee injury and now the ankle. But if he doesn't work out, and there's another talent in the draft that's considered a "sure thing", then I wouldn't argue against it because we got "burned" by the RG3 trade. So no, I don't think the RG3 trade really hurt. I think that if I want a house in the nice neighborhood, I've got to expect to pay a high mortgage. Some of my neighbors may have gotten their house on foreclosure, but that's not the standard way of getting a nice house. Same goes with getting franchise QBs. Those draft picks are just the cost of doing business when the house we fell in love with is RG3 and its rights are owned by the St. Louis Rams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 ( ii) the person starting it is a known Cousins supporter and RG3 basher Um...RG3 sucks and I hate him and his stupid plaits. KC is the sex and the Skins are doomed without him. Am I doing it right? Not being all in for RG3 is being a "basher", correct? Well, then I guess I have a new user name. Not once have I ever said anything critical about Griff without using his stats, injuries and play as my main argument. Dude's body has been decimated in 3-4 years. I'm sorry if I'm not jumping up and down in excitement over him being Jesus. I was willing to give KC a shot but he proved that he has not lost the "Rex" gene. Simple as that. But I kinda like the word Basher tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 ok how about Phillip Thomas, Brandon Jenkins, Jawan Jamison, Chris Thompson, Adam Gettis, Mo Hurt, Markus White. Dejon Gomes, Evan Royster, Brandon Thompson, Selvish Capers, Terrence Austin, Eric Cooke, Dennis Morris That's just a small sample of draft fails from 2010-2014. Again, these are all late round picks with a very small percentage for success. Niles Paul, Perry Riley, Alfred Morris, Ryan Grant and Roy Helu have been pretty damn good picks. You aren't going to hit on all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Um...RG3 sucks and I hate him and his stupid plaits. KC is the sex and the Skins are doomed without him. Am I doing it right? Not being all in for RG3 is being a "basher", correct? Well, then I guess I have a new user name. Not once have I ever said anything critical about Griff without using his stats, injuries and play as my main argument. Dude's body has been decimated in 3-4 years. I'm sorry if I'm not jumping up and down in excitement over him being Jesus. I was willing to give KC a shot but he proved that he has not lost the "Rex" gene. Simple as that. But I kinda like the word Basher tho. I like the way that one line is the only one you respond to, instead of, you know, actually seeing if my disagreement with your post holds merit. But I understand, you don't want that label even if the latent and obvious variables happen to group you into that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 I like the way that one line is the only one you respond to, instead of, you know, actually seeing if my disagreement with your post holds merit. But I understand, you don't want that label even if the latent and obvious variables happen to group you into that category. Cuz I started the thread my guy you started the post off with a childish remark of me being a "basher" just cuz I'm no longer sold on Robert Griffin III. No need to read your book after that little gem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 .....it's no coincidence that Dallas leads the league in rushing due to spending "non-flashy" early round picks on talented offensive linemen recently. Your QB doesn't need to be a superstar in this league to win, but he does need to stay upright. I am not going to discount (nor try to speculate what would have happened with those picks on him) what Robert brought to the team in his rookie year, but unfortunately, that seems like 10+ years ago at this rate and it's been a faceplant ever since. Embrace the suck = your Washington Redskins. Its also no coincidence that Dallas has had a franchise QB for about the last decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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