AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 The only thing the RG3 trade is gonna hurt is the rest of the division when he comes back and kicks ass. Can I say that as a certainty? No. Do I think that's what's gonna happen? Yes. It's all water under the bridge now. I think Griffin comes back and play extremely well, giving us some momentum going into the offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 The only thing the RG3 trade is gonna hurt is the rest of the division when he comes back and kicks ass. Can I say that as a certainty? No. Do I think that's what's gonna happen? Yes. It's all water under the bridge now. I think Griffin comes back and play extremely well, giving us some momentum going into the offseason. Agreed. I thought he was playing well before the ankle and I didn't think he was our big problem last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon Ducks Fan Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 That's what made the 2012 draft so different. Luck, and later RG3 were deemed sure fire picks, the best picks at QB since Peyton Manning. I think the consensus was that Andrew Luck was a sure fire pick. RGIII, not as much. April 23, 2012 Griffin’s upside is good enough that he could develop into that rare, elite quarterback who dominates the game. However, unlike running back, quarterback is not only the most difficult position to transition to from college football to the N.F.L., but it is also arguably the most difficult position in sports. As much as I admire Griffin’s intelligence, charisma and toughness, there are enough risk factors associated with his style of play that he may never reach his huge potential. http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/robert-griffin-iii-2nd-ranked-quarterback-in-2012-draft/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0 April 26, 2012 Robert Griffin III Best-case scenario… Because of Griffin’s unique combination of athleticism and touch outside the pocket, he makes for a seamless transition to the Redskins boot-action offense. He quickly matures into a threat with both his legs and his arm outside the pocket and is able to put consistent stress on opposing defenses because of his abilities to threaten the edge and get over the top vertically. He also takes to the coaching quickly and matures from under center. And he offers the threat to consistently create big plays with his feet when plays break down. Griffin exhibits the natural leadership capabilities and work rate to mature quickly in Mike Shanahan’s offense and gives the Redskins the type of dual run-pass threat with the knack for hitting the big play. Worst-case scenario… Learning to handle the nuances of working from under center becomes more of an initial burden than originally thought. Griffin struggles with his footwork, timing and accuracy in the three and five step game and doesn’t showcase the kind of natural athleticism in the pocket he possesses because of struggles with pocket awareness and over-thinking plays. He’s still a threat when asked to boot-action away from the line of scrimmage, but opposing defenses are consistently set up to take away the big plays, causing him to force the issue routinely. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Luck-vs-Griffin-III.html&team=123 March 10, 2012 Evaluating the Redskins Trade for Robert Griffin III ... From an expected value perspective, the Redskins definitively lost this trade (to put it mildly). The second overall pick carries an expected Career Approximate Value Over Average (eCAVOA) of 435.4. The 6th and 38th overall picks have a combined eCAVOA of 525.1. If the Redskins had given up just these picks, they would have lost 89.7 eCAVOA, which is the equivalent of the 114th overall pick (the middle of the 4th round). If this price had been the extent of the trade, it would have been defensible. A 525.1 eCAVOA translates to a CAV of 78.7, essentially equaling Matt Hasselbeck’s CAV. So RGIII would have only had to equal Hasselbeck for this trade to be equal. However, the Redskins gave much more: their next two first round draft picks. The average expected value of a first round pick is 276.8 eCAVOA, which brings the total eCAVOA the Redskins gave up to 1078.7. The Rams only gave up 435.4 eCAVOA, giving them a net gain of 643.3 eCAVOA, equivalent to the first and 57th overall draft picks... ...The only way it could be possible would be if the Redskins negatively valued their future first round draft picks. Given their previous willingness to trade away picks, this may not be far off. However, assuming that having first round picks is actually good for your team, this trade is awful for the Redskins. But let’s not jump to conclusions. RGIII could be better than the average second overall pick. In fact, he could be the best second overall pick ever. So how good does RGIII have to be to justify this trade? Given the discounted value of the future draft picks, the total price the Redskins paid was 753.5 eCAVOA. That price translates to a CAV of 113.0, comparable to Tom Brady’s current production to date (109 CAV). For the Redskins to get the equivalent value from RGIII as they spent acquiring him, he must produce at least as much as Tom Brady. Regardless of the rationale behind this move, the Redskins lost a tremendous amount of value in this trade, potentially setting the team back for years. If RGIII does not pan out – whether because of talent or injury – Washington would be left with no quarterback and no first round draft picks for the next two years. Regardless of RGIII’s future, the Redskins lost about as much expected value as the Falcons gave up last year to acquire Julio Jones. While RGIII will bring excitement to Washington, the conclusion here is clear. This trade was a bad move by the Redskins, and one of the worst moves in recent history. http://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2012/03/10/evaluating-the-redskins-trade-for-robert-griffin-iii/ The Skins are the same way. They could afford to pay what they paid. They paid a hefty price, but I want to know the cost of the alternative - and the alternative is drafting another Patrick Ramsey, and another Jason Campbell and another Kirk Cousins and another Gibron Hamden, and another Jordan Palmer, and basically keep drafing QBs until we get one. My conjecture is that we would have still spent the equal number of high draft picks (if not more) on a franchise QB over the lifetime that RG3 is in DC, so either way we'd lose those picks looking for a franchise QB. So I'd rather give them up up-front for what's as close to a sure thing as we've seen in a long time. Sure, technically they could "afford" to pay because they had the picks to trade, but the question is was the price too high for what they got. There are things I could technically afford if I cleaned out my bank account and sold off things I own, but that doesn't make the purchase a wise one. The question is while they had the picks to trade for RGIII, would the team be stronger overall if they had kept those picks and used them to build up the team. Russell Wilson and Nick Foles were just as available to the Redskins as Ryan Tannehill. Shanahan had his eye on Wilson. Redskins coach Mike Shanahan told USA TODAY Sports on Thursday that after selecting Griffin as his franchise quarterback with the second pick overall in April, he considered drafting Wilson -- who was nabbed by the Seattle Seahawks in the third round. "He was on the short list," Shanahan said. "He was a guy I thought highly of." http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/01/03/redskins-shanahan-wilson/1808037/ If the Redskins had not made the trade, and if the Browns or Vikings or Jaguars had drafted RGIII before pick #6, isn't it possible that Shanahan would have drafted Russell Wilson? So the Redskins would have Wilson as QB, and they still would have had those other 1st and 2nd round picks that they traded away. There is a huge difference between a sure thing and "close to a sure thing". There is no doubt Andrew Luck is the franchise quarterback for the Colts. After more than two years experience with RGIII, is his becoming a long-term franchise quarterback for the Redskins "a sure thing", or are there still question marks? And even if he does become a top quarterback who can stay healthy, was the price to get him so high that it significantly crippled the rest of the team? Now some might say that this is all "water under the bridge" and ancient history, but it is relevant today. Many Redskins fans seem to be asking "why are we so bad this year" and "why do we suck year after year"? Trading away valuable draft picks to pay too much for one player at the cost of weakening the rest of the team might be one of the reasons. 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dsciambi Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It's semantics. We traded 3 1sts and a second and got a First back, which became Griffin The net loss of picks was 3, 2 firsts and a second. The argument is silly because everybody is right. It's just semantics. But the facts are in stone: they flipped 1's in 2012, gave up 3 picks. It's not semantics though. How many picks did we give up on, say, Orakpo? It was 1. Why doesn't the pick we used on RG3 count as a pick? 2012, 2013, and 2014 1st rounders, plus the 2012 2nd rounder. That looks like 4 picks to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 There is a huge difference between a sure thing and "close to a sure thing". There is no doubt Andrew Luck is the franchise quarterback for the Colts. After more than two years experience with RGIII, is his becoming a long-term franchise quarterback for the Redskins "a sure thing", or are there still question marks? And even if he does become a top quarterback who can stay healthy, was the price to get him so high that it significantly crippled the rest of the team? I used to think the salary cap penalties did more damage but now when I look at our offensive line and our secondary, I wonder. I still think Griffin will be awesome and I don't want to give him up. Lord knows St. Louis never did capitalize on all those picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It's not semantics though. How many picks did we give up on, say, Orakpo? It was 1. Why doesn't the pick we used on RG3 count as a pick? 2012, 2013, and 2014 1st rounders, plus the 2012 2nd rounder. That looks like 4 picks to me. It is semantics, not sure why anyone likes to argue this, it's just stupid. RG3 cost us 4 picks. We gave up 3 additional picks to get him. Orakpo cost us 1 pick. We gave up no additional picks to get him. People play with the words. What's it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It is semantics, not sure why anyone likes to argue this, it's just stupid. RG3 cost us 4 picks. We gave up 3 additional picks to get him. Orakpo cost us 1 pick. We gave up no additional picks to get him. People play with the words. What's it matter? Might be the first time in 2014 I've agreed with one of your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Now some might say that this is all "water under the bridge" and ancient history, but it is relevant today. Many Redskins fans seem to be asking "why are we so bad this year" and "why do we suck year after year"? Trading away valuable draft picks to pay too much for one player at the cost of weakening the rest of the team might be one of the reasons. I said it was water under the bridge, because it is. It's in the past. There's nothing we can do to undo it. Despite the skepticism, our FO rolled the dice and made a move to try to solidify our woeful QB situation. We're not all morons here. We understand that getting one player might not be as valuable as getting several players. But thanks for bringing that obvious conclusion here. It ranks up there with all we have to do to win is score more points. Or the awesome golf saying 'just hit it straight'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Truth Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 All this mess is Green bay fault lol. We were one pick away from drafting Aaron Rodgers and they pick him right before our next pick. So we had to settle for Jason Campbell and well............the rest is history smh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knighthonor Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Can you really say that as a fact though? The Dolphins are just marginally less dysfunctional than we are. Surround Tannehill with some actual talent and maybe he doesn't look so bad. I think a lot of QB's get written off as "bad" because they're on bad teams. It retards their growth as an NFL QB until they eventually wash out of the league. Take a mediocre quarterback like Kaepernick and put him on a loaded team and you can go to the Super Bowl. When that talent starts to leave, he suddenly looks bad. Is that a coincidence? the Bronccos Tim Teevo proved your point. I misspelled his name though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I think the consensus was that Andrew Luck was a sure fire pick. RGIII, not as much. You can mention some articles, but there's a reason we paid the price we paid and its because of how highly thought of RG3 was. Its cool if you didn't believe but check this forum, check other sites people were in love with RG3, well before the trade. In fact during that season (2011), he started as kind of unknown on many people's radar (myself included) and I watched the whole year after a friend let me know about him and the friend was telling me about how good he thought RG3 was and I quickly fell in love too, so much that I thought he'd win the Heisman But his draft status is a moot point now cause we saw him validate the #2 overall selection (we can call the 4 picks debatable still) in that first year when he led us to a division crown. If he doesn't get injured we're not having any of these talks. Sure, technically they could "afford" to pay because they had the picks to trade, but the question is was the price too high for what they got. There are things I could technically afford if I cleaned out my bank account and sold off things I own, but that doesn't make the purchase a wise one. The question is while they had the picks to trade for RGIII, would the team be stronger overall if they had kept those picks and used them to build up the team. Russell Wilson and Nick Foles were just as available to the Redskins as Ryan Tannehill. Shanahan had his eye on Wilson. I'm going to stay on the house example. The alternatives to buying a house is renting and buying an alternative house - in this scenario its the same thing, basically drafting another QB. You keep saying we'd get one of the ones who made it out. First, I'll say that I have NEVER heard Shanny or reports of Shanny saying anything about Foles, so he shouldn't even be in this conversation. I've heard reports about Tannehill BEFORE the draft and reports about Wilson AFTER the draft (before the playoff game) - but I reject that because of course Shanny's going to say he liked Wilson after the draft, its like saying "I was just about to play those lotto numbers". Maybe he liked him, but thats still a 1 in 2 chance and the fact that we would have been able to get Tannehill with our first pick kinda implies that we would have probably gotten him, and what that means is that even if we drafted Wilson in the third (instead of Cousins), we'd probably still have this same situation where we'd be saying that Tannehill is our starter and the fans would be calling for Wilson to get a shot. There is a huge difference between a sure thing and "close to a sure thing". There is no doubt Andrew Luck is the franchise quarterback for the Colts. After more than two years experience with RGIII, is his becoming a long-term franchise quarterback for the Redskins "a sure thing", or are there still question marks? And even if he does become a top quarterback who can stay healthy, was the price to get him so high that it significantly crippled the rest of the team? The only doubt of if he CAN become a franchise QB again is if his knee/legs will hold up again. There is a question of whether he WILL or not, and that's based on the systems he wants to run, what he's best in, and what Gruden knows how to work with. Honestly, I think its based less on the system and more on the man calling the plays. I think that if Gruden and RG3 can develop a relationship like Brees and Peyton, the could be calling a funky chicken offense and RG3 would be a franchise QB in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 But what if you pay a lot for a house in the nice neighborhood, and that house had a history of a leaky roof that required major repairs in the past? You saddled yourself with a high mortgage and after enjoying your nice house for most of the first year and throwing some nice parties that impressed your friends and neighbors it turned out the roof needed more repairs and it hasn't been the same since. And after thinking you finally got the roof fixed at the beginning of this year then the plumbing in the basement sprung a leak and now you have had to live in a mobile home you bought the same year as the house while the plumbing and water damage are being repaired. Yet you are still stuck paying the high mortgage. Would the house still seem like a good investment, and would you still love it as much as when you first bought it? Washington traded the 6th and 39th picks in 2012, the 22nd pick in 2013, and the 2nd pick in 2014 to move up to the 2nd pick in 2012. If they had not done that trade, and to keep things simple had not traded to get even more picks like the Rams did and had just used those four picks, they could have used them like this: 2012 6th pick: choice of Luke Kuechly (Pro Bowl LB) OR Dontari Poe (Pro Bowl NT) OR Alshon Jeffery (6'3" Pro Bowl WR) 39th pick: choice of Russell Wilson OR Nick Foles 2013 22nd pick: choice of Desmond Trufant (CB) OR Cordarrelle Patterson (Pro Bowl WR/KR) OR Travis Frederick © OR Zach Ertz (TE) OR Kiko Alonzo (LB) 2014 2nd pick: choice of anyone in the first round except Jadeveon Clowney. (Greg Robinson, Blake Bortles, Sammy Watkins, Khalil Mack, Jake Matthews, MIke Evans, Justin Gilbert, Anthony Barr, Eric Ebron, Taylor Lewan, Odell Beckham Jr., Aaron Donald, Kyle Fuller, Ryan Shazier, Zack Martin, C.J. Mosley, Calvin Pryor, Ja'Wuan James, Brandin Cooks, Ha Ha Clinton Dix, Johnny Manziel, Dee Ford, Darqueze Dennard, Jason Verrett, Marcus Smith, Deone Bucannon, Kelvin Benjamin, Dominique Easley, Jimmy Ward, Bradley Roby, Teddy Bridgewater, Xavier Su'a-Filo) So each person has to decide if the team is better off in 2014 with one player - RGIII, who is not currently able to play - or instead of RGIII either Russell Wilson or Nick Foles, plus any two players - even the worst two players - from the following: Desmond Trufant, Luke Kuechly, Dontari Poe, Alshon Jeffery, Cordarrelle Patterson, Travis Frederick, Zach Ertz, or Kiko Alonzo, plus any player in the 2014 draft except Jadeveon Clowney. Now before someone says that no one could have known all of those 2012 and 2013 players were going to be good, somebody knew, since all of them were drafted by teams that saw something in them worth drafting. It shows the importance of having a good scouting department and front office, and hoarding draft picks that they can use to build the strongest team overall, since as the article quoted earlier pointed out, mega trades rarely work out for the team that trades multiple valuable first or second round draft picks for one "impact" player. Our front office would not have picked any of those players. Lol. But Russell Wilson is a great football player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVSkinsfan Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Do we have a first rd pick this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Lets be honest, guys like Wilson and Foles would be nowhere near as good here as they are for other teams. There is something about this franchise that just creates losers. If RG3 got drafted by the Rams or Browns he'd probably be en route to his 3rd straight Pro Bowl and 1st league MVP award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Lets be honest, guys like Wilson and Foles would be nowhere near as good here as they are for other teams. There is something about this franchise that just creates losers. If RG3 got drafted by the Rams or Browns he'd probably be en route to his 3rd straight Pro Bowl and 1st league MVP award. We're a cesspool. It's very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowledge316 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Lets be honest, guys like Wilson and Foles would be nowhere near as good here as they are for other teams. There is something about this franchise that just creates losers. If RG3 got drafted by the Rams or Browns he'd probably be en route to his 3rd straight Pro Bowl and 1st league MVP award. Agreed. Redskins is what you have when you let random people run the organization instead of smart football people. Redskins scouting department is garbage, their facilities are trash, and they don't have anyone who knows football making the decisions. Finishing last in the division is where this team belongs with Snyder and his crew trying to run a football team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 At this point, the trade itself (not Robert) are exactly what is wrong with our FO. Tried for the quick fix and it completely blew up in their face. RG3 is looking more and more like "not the guy" but by giving up all those picks, it makes it even worse. Of course, if you didn't do it, you wouldn't have gotten him in the first place. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOGOheadray Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 I would of rathered we kept the picks and drafted ryan tannehill. That guy is looking pretty good right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy Smith Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Griffin obviously isn't the answer, and he's not developing AT ALL the way a franchise QB should be. But the team hasn't given him an offensive line, and so it's hard to blame him too much. In hindsight, looking back from today, the trade hurt, yes, but at this point we have to start rebuilding from scratch. It's really time for Snyder to let Bruce Allen go, at the end of this season. Bring in a new GM, and give that GM total autonomy over football decisions. That's almost the system we have now, and there's no choice but to continue to reinforce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 JKC dying in April 1997 really hurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 JKC dying in April 1997 really hurt Christ, were you his coke dealer or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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