Quinn Versus Kerrigan

[Capsman]

Let me clarify a couple things. One, I meant the original pick which would have given us the option of Quinn. Two, I did not mean this in any way to be a bashing of Kerrigan who I think is a very good player. In fact I believe he has been hurt by a defensive line that is beyond pathetic. Getting pressure off the edge isn't much use if the QB has 5 or 6 yards in front of him to step up, unless you are an elite edge rusher. Kerrigan is not an elite pass rusher, but he's in the next echelon that needs even token help. Guys like Quinn and Watt can do it all on their own.

[goskins10]

I love how hindsight is always 20/20

It really goes back to the 2000 draft, when the Skins passed on Brady 6 times!

I am generally the first to criticize Vinny. But at that point Orakpo was not really a bizarre pick at the time.

 

 

First, I answered the question posed. It was an exercise similar to the one posed by this thread, and not too far a stretch considering orakpo's poor performance has had a negative effect on kerrigan. Second, I have not been an Orakpo fan for the last 3 years. It's not hindsight. I said it after his first year he was just average. But many in here think he is the greatest player in redskins history. I just provided data to support my long held contention he is just not that good. I stated it in here several times on the Orakpo thread.

 

You however made an assumption about my post with incomplete data. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Our D has been in the bottom 5 the last 4 yrs. We have a revolving door at Safety. Our CBs are weak at best, our D line has been seriously banged up each year, our DC is a complete idiot and the supposed superstar on the other side in Rak has been not very good at all. Despite that, we still made the probowl, albeit since someone fell out. But still he was one of the top 10 OLB last years. So saying Watt is so much better that it'[s not even close is just not true.

 

You can laugh it makes you feel superior, but that does not make you right.

Come on man, Watt is one of the best players in the entire NFL, period. He is a dominating beast. It's not a knock on Kerrigan to say he isn't in the same conversation of player as Watt. He isn't, it's not an opinion it's a fact.

[Voice_of_Reason]

First, I answered the question posed. It was an exercise similar to the one posed by this thread, and not too far a stretch considering orakpo's poor performance has had a negative effect on kerrigan. Second, I have not been an Orakpo fan for the last 3 years. It's not hindsight. I said it after his first year he was just average. But many in here think he is the greatest player in redskins history. I just provided data to support my long held contention he is just not that good. I stated it in here several times on the Orakpo thread.

You however made an assumption about my post with incomplete data.

Actually, I read your post.

It is hindsight. Because there is no way to know how any of the players in the draft will turn out before the draft. Everything is speculation before the draft. Some "can't miss" guys miss, guys who are reaches excel. You never know.

[goskins10]

Come on man, Watt is one of the best players in the entire NFL, period. He is a dominating beast. It's not a knock on Kerrigan to say he isn't in the same conversation of player as Watt. He isn't, it's not an opinion it's a fact.

 

2013 -

Kerrigan through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 37 tackles - 3 FF

Watt through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 42 tackles - 3 FF

 

The data disagrees with you, at least for this year. Oddly enough Houston has also been a bad team this year like us and Watts numbers are down, and almost identical to Kerrigans.

[drowland]

Kerrigan is just as good as Quinn is, I hope we switch to a 4-3 so Orakpo and Kerrigan can pin their ears back on every play and rack up sacks so they can shut the non believers up.

 

I disagree.  Kerrigan's good in his own right, but he doesn't have the same burst off the line that Quinn has.  Add that with Quinn's long arms, it's hard for OTs to block him.  Kerrigan's closer to Chris Long.   And I'm not saying that because they're both white.  

[repo_4]

There is a lot of talk about Kerrigan being average, just OK... we should have drafted JJ Watt, Jordan Cameron or any one of a group of other players. You guys need to think about if Kerrigan is just "OK" because he is HERE. Not being put in the best positions to succeed by a historically bad DC. If Watt was here instead I think he would have suffered the same fate. I would almost be willing to bet that if they were reversed (Kerrigan in Houston and Watt here) we would be discussing how "average" Watt is. Kerrigan isnt the problem.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

2013 -

Kerrigan through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 37 tackles - 3 FF

Watt through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 42 tackles - 3 FF

The data disagrees with you, at least for this year. Oddly enough Houston has also been a bad team this year like us and Watts numbers are down, and almost identical to Kerrigans.

That is why stats don't tell the entire story but in this case I'd say teams are doing a better job of game planning around him. Watt sees so much more attention than Kerrigan does, he is the focal point of the offense. I cant believe you are still trying to argue this

[goskins10]

That is why stats don't tell the entire story but in this case I'd say teams are doing a better job of game planning around him. Watt sees so much more attention than Kerrigan does, he is the focal point of the offense. I cant believe you are still trying to argue this

 

 

I cant believe you are still trying to argue this. You and a few have said Watt is so much better than Kerrigan it's not even close - I will agree he is probably a better player, but not so much so it's not even close. That's an exaggeration.

 

Then when I provide data proving my point you rationalize it away. Kerrigan is getting the lions share of attention on our team as there is no one else to be scared of. Orakpo? Not hardly. Anyone else? NO!  

[RG3Hunna]

This forum really hurts my head. Our fan base turns on pretty much all of our players when things get bad, but when things are good we sing their praises.

 

It's a what have you done for me lately world.

 

Orakpo, Griffin, and now Kerrigan.

 

Losing sucks.

This is why I'm always calling people out for their flip flopping and their pure fickleness. First Orakpo and now people are questioning the Ryan Kerrigan selection because he has been quiet for a few weeks. hahaha 

2013 -

Kerrigan through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 37 tackles - 3 FF

Watt through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 42 tackles - 3 FF

 

The data disagrees with you, at least for this year. Oddly enough Houston has also been a bad team this year like us and Watts numbers are down, and almost identical to Kerrigans.

Kerrigan is a OLB and WATT is a 3 technique DLineman do you seriously understand what you're saying? A 3 technique DLineman getting 6.5 sacks is like an OLB getting 13 sacks. 

[TK]

Some of you need to dial it down a few notches.

[98ORAKPO98]

Other 3-4 defensive ends have dominated before Watt, think Bruce Smith. Also, I'd be willing to bet if Orakpo and Kerrigan played for Wade Phillips in his proven scheme for getting his dominant pass rushers big sack numbers, they would be more dominant.

 

Rak and Kerrigan are very good players, possibly great in the right scheme.

[MartinC]

2013 -

Kerrigan through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 37 tackles - 3 FF

Watt through 9 games - 6.5 sacks - 42 tackles - 3 FF

 

The data disagrees with you, at least for this year. Oddly enough Houston has also been a bad team this year like us and Watts numbers are down, and almost identical to Kerrigans.

 

Watt is a 3-4 DE. Kerrigan is a 3-4 OLB. That Watts numbers are comparable to Kerrigan's tells you just how good a player Watt is. Go look up the stats for our DEs.

 

On a more general note you guys do know Kerrigan is battling through a sore knee don't you? Its no coincidence he has had a couple of quiet games as a result. Kerrigan is part of the solution here not part of the problem.

Other 3-4 defensive ends have dominated before Watt, think Bruce Smith. Also, I'd be willing to bet if Orakpo and Kerrigan played for Wade Phillips in his proven scheme for getting his dominant pass rushers big sack numbers, they would be more dominant.

 

Rak and Kerrigan are very good players, possibly great in the right scheme.

 

When did Bruce Smith play in a 3-4? He was a 4-3 RDE his whole career by my memory (serious question not sarcasm - I just dont remember Smith ever playing in a 3-4).

[LD0506]

So true, KDawg - the top two posts the last few days: Keep Shanahan and Fire Everyone Please Danny! 

 

This board cracks me up sometimes - it's no wonder why I stay away from this board for a while after a loss.  Too many people on the ledge.  Go get some fresh air...

 

The problem isn't all the people on the ledge, it's that they never work up the nerve to actually juummmppppp................

[Dan T.]

Give me 11 Ryan Kerrigans on defense.  Name any player in the league with a better motor than him.  If every player on the roster put out the effort that he does on game day, we wouldn't have a worry in the world on D.  Those of you in this thread saying he's mediocre must be watching soccer on Sundays.  

[justice98]

Quinn is a 4-3 DE, which is what Kerrigan was coming out, and when you get right down to it, is probably what he still should be.  Orakpo too, for that matter.   Make Cofield a DT, and find another DT and that's not a bad DL.  

 

But it's comparing apples to oranges, since Quinn's not being asked to cover TEs and RBs from time to time.

[goskins10]

This is why I'm always calling people out for their flip flopping and their pure fickleness. First Orakpo and now people are questioning the Ryan Kerrigan selection because he has been quiet for a few weeks. hahaha 

Kerrigan is a OLB and WATT is a 3 technique DLineman do you seriously understand what you're saying? A 3 technique DLineman getting 6.5 sacks is like an OLB getting 13 sacks. 

 

I am quite well aware of the positions and how they work. Just because I have not been posting in here for very long does not mean I am new to football. I have been a Redskins fan for 48 years. Yes watt is a DE in 3-4, but they also play a lot 4 man fronts on passing downs like most of the other 3-4s including us. He then becomes a DE in a 4-3 which is a pure pass rusher. This is a good DC using his players best skills. They put watt in a position for success. 

 

My point is all this that keeps being missed through the guffaws and down right arrogance of some of the responses is that while watt may be a bit better player (I never said Kerriqan was better) to say he so much better "it's not even close" is to ignore quite a few things, most specifically the coaching and play calling and the talent of the team around him. 

[MartinC]

 

I am quite well aware of the positions and how they work. Just because I have not been posting in here for very long does not mean I am new to football. I have been a Redskins fan for 48 years. Yes watt is a DE in 3-4, but they also play a lot 4 man fronts on passing downs like most of the other 3-4s including us. He then becomes a DE in a 4-3 which is a pure pass rusher. This is a good DC using his players best skills. They put watt in a position for success. 

 

My point is all this that keeps being missed through the guffaws and down right arrogance of some of the responses is that while watt may be a bit better player (I never said Kerriqan was better) to say he so much better "it's not even close" is to ignore quite a few things, most specifically the coaching and play calling and the talent of the team around him. 

 

 

You make a fair point about changes in responsibilities in nickel when most 3-4 teams run a 4 man front. Certainly talent and scheme make a difference to a players production and the lack of effective inside pass rush from our D-Line makes it relatively easy for opposing offenses to scheme against both Kerrigan and Orakpoand give the QB the ability to climb the pocket when we do get outside pressure. This reduces the effectiveness of both Orakpo and Kerrigan - too often though both guys get blocked one on one. 

[IrepDC]

Kerrigan is the man, but he played kinda bad against the Vikings. They ran at him successfully, including a big gain off the edge to his side with Joe Webb blocking him. Yes, Joe Webb the Vikings backup QB. He also had the dropped INT he normally catches. I hope he gets back on track against Philly.

[rumplestilskin]

I am not sure i would take Kerrigan over Quinn but the gap between the two over the past three years is not large.  I am also hestiant to pass judgement on Ryan or even Rak because the interior of our line is also not doing its job.  In our system we need a dominant nose and better than average ends and we dont have one or any of those and never have.  

[TheGreek1973]

man I wonder if this thread even exists if Kerrigan could have held on to that ball and won the game for us.  he has done it in the past.

[ZRagone]

My issue is you can always play these kind of "what if's".

For example, there's an even more glaring one in the same draft than Ryan Kerrigan. We took Dejon Gomes instead of Richard Sherman.

But I don't see a lot of use in getting REALLY upset about these kind of things. The only times I can kind of feel okay doing it is in situations where there was a guy taken a few picks later that was widely considered someone the team, media, or fans wanted. Like going with Devin Thomas over Jordy Nelson...or Fred Davis over Calais Campbell.

But I look back at 2009 and 2011 and I can't criticize too much.

Prior to the draft in 2009, if someone said "You all will get to draft Brian Orakpo" I dare say most people on this board would've jumped at it. Ditto for those in the media, as the only reason we managed to get Orakpo was because the Bills inexplicably went with Aaron Maybin instead.

Orakpo was considered an elite pass rush talent coming out that was not expected to make it out of the top 10. It was a no brainer to take him. Has he lived up to that potential? No, he's not. But I can't blame the Redskins nor lament taking him instead of another pick.

Similarly, with all our holes in 2011 and without magically knowing the future...I can't imagine there'd be many on this board who would've turned down moving down 6 spots to get an extra 2nd rounder or that thought JJ Watt or Robert Quinn was going to be more valuable to gamble on than Kerrigan plus an extra 2nd. And if we were told "Hey, you can take someone at #10...or you can move back 6 spots and get an extra 2nd, 4th, and 5th" then again, I can't imagine anyone NOT taking that.

Much like in 2009, I can't fault the front office here due to hind sight because the moves they made were reasonable, intelligent, understandable moves.

[98ORAKPO98]

You make a fair point about changes in responsibilities in nickel when most 3-4 teams run a 4 man front. Certainly talent and scheme make a difference to a players production and the lack of effective inside pass rush from our D-Line makes it relatively easy for opposing offenses to scheme against both Kerrigan and Orakpoand give the QB the ability to climb the pocket when we do get outside pressure. This reduces the effectiveness of both Orakpo and Kerrigan - too often though both guys get blocked one on one. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Smith_%28defensive_end%29

 

In his 19 NFL seasons, Smith played in 279 games, amassing 200 sacks, two interceptions, 46 forced fumbles, and 15 fumble recoveries, one of which he returned for 33 yards and a touchdown. Of his 19 seasons in the NFL, 13 of them were seasons where he had at least ten sacks, a testament to his consistency year in and year out. He was also named All-Pro nine times. His 200 sacks give him the record for most career quarterback take-downs. As Smith spent most of his career in a 3–4 defensive scheme, a defensive scheme not geared toward creating sack opportunities for defensive ends, many consider the record particularly impressive.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/1224/bruce-smith-the-best-ever-just-ask-him

 

"I've had a considerable amount of time to take a step back and actually think about it. Having studied the game over the last 19 years and from the outside watching in now over the last five years, the one thing that sticks out more and more like a sore thumb is what was accomplished in this 3-4 defensive scheme that I played in for so long. It's unprecedented.

These are facts that the best defensive end and pass rusher that played in this game played for the Buffalo Bills. The reason I'm saying that is the fact that by design, by the scheme a 3-4 defensive end gets double-teamed far more often than a 4-3 defensive end, and that's a fact. These are not hearsays.

The defensive ends in a 3-4 system gets double-teamed by the center-the guard, the guard-the tackle, the tackle-the tight end, the tackle-the running back. So there's so many possible combinations, and there's nowhere to hide. A 4-3 defensive end always lines up on the edge. He only gets a double team typically from slide protection or they may chip with a back."

[wit33]

Silly discussion; you could do this all day. I do not understand the mindset behind these conversations. Lets hope Kerrigan continues to improve on his already impressive career. 

[MartinC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Smith_(defensive_end)

Thanks. Strange how your memory plays tricks on you, I don't recall those Bills Super Bowl teams playing a 3-4 defense.