tshile Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 5 minutes ago, Hersh said: I think it's the idea that they have any chance or hope of holding Clinton or Trump under 270 and magically get Bernie elected. Oh, I guess I kind of left that part of it out. Yeah, with that logic they should just go buy lots of powerball tickets too. 3 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: I just think more people should be pragmatic and choose the less flawed candidate and/or the one that best represents their platform (from the two parties). To me, it's a pipe dream to think of 3rd parties and american politics. Nor do I want it as I continually see (or at least think of) what a cluster**** it is in Europe and other places. Third parties are only really successful at altering the major parties. They, currently, are not a dominate player obviously. So you push people towards them, the major parties adjust to capture them back. The same way we're hoping some GOPers will vote for Clinton to send a message to the GOP establishment. I'm a fan of the alternative vote. I think first past the post is utterly stupid and flawed; not only has it reduced us to two major parties, it brings about gerrymandering and other corrupt political schemes it's hard to be a fan of the alternative vote, hate first past the post, then willfully put yourself into the lesser of two evils mindset. So unless we're going to change the voting system (HAH! yeah the two major parties will change it to a system that makes it harder for them to retain power. sure) the only other option is to use third parties to express dissatisfaction with the major parties and to force them to alter course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 BTW, admiring the people arguing that a Trump administration wouldn't be as bad as we all know it would be, because the country will really be run by people who are willing to attach themselves to Trump, to get power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, Larry said: It's about people voting for Bernie because they think a vote for Bernie is a winning lottery ticket. Yeah I got wrapped up in my rant and forgot that part I do that sometimes... (there is a general nasty tone taken with people expressing the desire to vote third party this year, which has made me think about that a lot lately) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 2 hours ago, thebluefood said: Yeah I heard about this through the grapevine. My hardcore Berner buddies are pretty jazzed up about it (despite Sen. Sanders imploring people to vote for Clinton). But seeing how Social Democrats are everyone's favorite in this thread, I'm gonna find a nice warm bunker to settle into while this blows over. These people are morons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, tshile said: (there is a general nasty tone taken with people expressing the desire to vote third party this year, which has made me think about that a lot lately) I can't really blame them. People are afraid of the alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 @tshile Oh dang it the stupid letters won't go away even when I pull the bits of the article out. Anyways, to recap, I think we're arguing past each other. The no lesser evil thing I get and sympathize with, even if I disagree with it this cycle for several reasons. But rather, the article talks at times about how they intend to get Bernie to win by getting him some EVs and kicking it to the House, where maybe he can win. That is flatly not reasonably possible. Getting to the House is an almost impossible play already, and then the GOP would have to magically agree to put Bernie in the White House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 5 minutes ago, Larry said: BTW, admiring the people arguing that a Trump administration wouldn't be as bad as we all know it would be, because the country will really be run by people who are willing to attach themselves to Trump, to get power. Is that the impression you're getting? I'm reading/saying the complete opposite - that the people who are attaching themselves to Trump, who would probably run the show, are way scarier than Trump as individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Dammit. The letters are back on my screen. WTH is up with that article? I thought by editing the original post I posted the article in would fix it, but DogofWar quoted the edited version, and now the letters are back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PF Chang Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 How do you know someone voted third party? They'll tell you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 17 minutes ago, tshile said: I hate voting lesser of two evils too. I hate that we're stuck with two parties because so many people easily go into the lesser of two evils category. I understand why they/we think it, I just don't agree with it being the over-ruling mindset every single time there's an election (and it feels like that's what it always boils down to...) To be fair, the write-in/third-party-voters are being afforded the luxury of taking the stand without real consequence. If you believe the polls that don't have a stake in election night ratings, and subsequently haven't wildly swung from an electoral college blowout to a close race, you can comfortably vote third party/write-in without fear of Trump winning. As much as I hate the less of two evils crap, it's not completely without merit. If Trump comfortably held many traditionally GOP states, and Clinton was struggling a little in a few traditionally blue states, and the traditional set of battleground states were truly such (and it was a small set), we might be in a different situation. 1 That's what a lot of the Brexit voters thought and we see how that worked out. 6 minutes ago, tshile said: (there is a general nasty tone taken with people expressing the desire to vote third party this year, which has made me think about that a lot lately) 1 I've been somewhat guilty of this. However this is no normal election year. This is not a case of the opponent espousing policies one disagrees with on an intellectual level, but rather on a moral level. Trump represents the takeover of the GOP by white nationalists, i.e. David Duke and the like. Moreover, by his own words he's a serial sexual assaulter. I'm sorry but when the opponent is a less palatable combination of Bill Cosby and David Duke, I think characterizing things in such stark terms isn't fear-mongering but simply a matter of telling the truth. Aside from that, have you taken a look at the third party candidates this time around? These people are no H. Ross Perot. They're basically crackpots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornaSkinsFan83 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 @brandymac27 I would advise just posting the tweets for the articles. Like if I see a Washington Post piece I want to post, I just go the Washington Post Twitter account and find the tweet for it (they all always tweet out articles after they go up. My experience anyway.) It's a lot easier and a lot cleaner. Example on that last article you posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 14 minutes ago, thebluefood said: Is that the impression you're getting? I'm reading/saying the complete opposite - that the people who are attaching themselves to Trump, who would probably run the show, are way scarier than Trump as individuals. Thinking Bush 2 on steroids, too, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 minute ago, The Sisko said: That's what a lot of the Brexit voters thought and we see how that worked out. Eh, I don't think we're seeing the same issue here. I don't really see any moderate democrats voting third party... in fact, while moderate democrats may have an issue with the person hillary is (the liar, crooked, nasty, whatever else people say stuff) I think moderate democrats view her as a moderate democrat at least in enough things they consider important. These same people view Trump as a threat, to put it mildly. What I think we'll see are moderate republicans who cannot in good conscious vote for Clinton but also cannot vote for Trump vote third party. I think we'll also seem some vote Clinton because they don't want to risk it, or because they want to send that kind of a message to the GOP and they think voting third party won't send that message. I also think what we saw with Brexit was a situation where polling was close, and flawed, and people with a protest vote unrelated to the actual consequences wound up swaying it, while what we see here are people that need election night ratings trying to make something out of nothing. Trump is toast. He lost this election weeks if not months ago. The only question that remains is by how much is Clinton going to win, and whether it'll affect down ballot or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 6 minutes ago, The Sisko said: I've been somewhat guilty of this. However this is no normal election year. This is not a case of the opponent espousing policies one disagrees with on an intellectual level, but rather on a moral level. So you support the right to lifers voting for Trump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Just now, Renegade7 said: Thinking Bush 2 on steroids, too, huh? Never thought of it in those terms but yeah...yeah, basically. Though in his defense - GWB seems like an infinitely more charitable and compassionate human being than Donald Trump could ever hope to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 minute ago, thebluefood said: Never thought of it in those terms but yeah...yeah, basically. Though in his defense - GWB seems like an infinitely more charitable and compassionate human being than Donald Trump could ever hope to be. I still think Bush's main problem was not knowing enough himself and trusting the wrong people. Trump's got a laundry list of problems and majority of them are not ones you can simply look past of forgive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 minute ago, thebluefood said: Never thought of it in those terms but yeah...yeah, basically. Though in his defense - GWB seems like an infinitely more charitable and compassionate human being than Donald Trump could ever hope to be. GWB was the culmination of 30 years of failed right wing economic policies combined with a complete buy-in to the neocon nation building foreign policy dream. We're still dealing with the fallout from each. He was a complete idiot but at least he meant well. Trump represents all the worst aspects of GWB economically, with a complete lack of any vision for what our foreign policy should look like. Combine that with a large degree of mental and emotional instability, plus a ridiculous number of personal negatives, and he's easily the riskiest presidential candidate ever fielded by a major party in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said: GWB was the culmination of 30 years of failed right wing economic policies combined with a complete buy-in to the neocon nation building foreign policy dream. We're still dealing with the fallout from each. He was a complete idiot but at least he meant well. Trump represents all the worst aspects of GWB economically, with a complete lack of any vision for what our foreign policy should look like. Combine that with a large degree of mental and emotional instability, plus a ridiculous number of personal negatives, and he's easily the riskiest presidential candidate ever fielded by a major party in this country. I don't even know if I'd call W an idiot. Misguided, yes, but neoconservatism was a popular line of thinking on the right in those days and I'm sure it seemed like the way to go. But I absolutely agree with you about the fallout and we may be feeling the hurt from that long after we're dead and gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 minute ago, thebluefood said: I don't even know if I'd call W an idiot. Misguided, yes, but neoconservatism was a popular line of thinking on the right in those days and I'm sure it seemed like the way to go. But I absolutely agree with you about the fallout and we may be feeling the hurt from that long after we're dead and gone. Give who his father was, and the men that surrounded him, and the GOP establishment at the time, it would have been hard to not be neoconservative growing up as him. I don't know how smart/dumb he was - there were times that made me think both. I'll never question his intent though, I don't think the man ever did anything meaning harm to anyone in this country. I might be wrong, it was just the vibe i got from him. Trump? Trump would probably volunteer his wife in a hostage situation if it meant he thought he could go free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 12 minutes ago, thebluefood said: Never thought of it in those terms but yeah...yeah, basically. Though in his defense - GWB seems like an infinitely more charitable and compassionate human being than Donald Trump could ever hope to be. I didn't think about because I felt Trump doesn't listen to people anyway. But he's going to surround himself with like-minded individuals or yes-people, and filling out an executive branch with that is even more damaging then what he can do by himself. He would not employee people that would tell him "no" on even his worst ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 minute ago, tshile said: Give who his father was, and the men that surrounded him, and the GOP establishment at the time, it would have been hard to not be neoconservative growing up as him. I don't know how smart/dumb he was - there were times that made me think both. I'll never question his intent though, I don't think the man ever did anything meaning harm to anyone in this country. I might be wrong, it was just the vibe i got from him. Trump? Trump would probably volunteer his wife in a hostage situation if it meant he thought he could go free. I can't believe I'm genuinely getting nostalgic over GWB. "Yeah, the country's economy was in complete shambles and we were bogged down in two, quagmire wars in the Middle East from which all parties involved may never completely recovery but at least he was a decent human being!" I will say, though, that if they ran on some kind of centrist, non-partisan ticket: Michelle Obama and Laura Bush would probably clean up in an election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I believe Cheney was playing chess with Bush while he though they were playing checkers. I don't think Bush was stupid, either, but not on the same level of cunning as some of the sharks he surrounded himself with. For someone as well intended as he seems, its amazing how much Cheney was able to get away with concerning Halliburton and such. And Bush did not help himself in the public perception of being a brain fart factory: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 27 minutes ago, PF Chang said: How do you know someone voted third party? They'll tell you Well, of course they will. I'm pretty convinced that a big part of the appeal of voting third party is so that you can spend the next four years telling everybody 1) That you're better than them. 2) And that you have no responsibility whatsoever, for anything that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, tshile said: Trump? Trump would probably volunteer his wife in a hostage situation if it meant he thought he could go free. She's getting old anyway. It's well past time for another Trump divorce and new wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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