PeterMP Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) On 6/8/2019 at 2:40 PM, stevemcqueen1 said: I am tired of people making a talent excuse for one of the most loaded teams in the history of the league. It is SUCH a product of recency bias. I can't believe LKB has the nerve to say I'm the one who can't see past the moment. Draymond as your third best player is more than good enough to win a championship with. He's averaging a near triple double and he has been their most effective facilitator in transition offense. He's doing that plus playing high end defense where he can neutralize Siakim and play highly effective weakside help. Playing the five isn't what his value hinges on. He's a dominant defensive player from the four. Toronto is on the cusp of winning a championship with Kyle Lowry as their third best player. Draymond is a significantly better player than him. He's been sensational in this series. If anything, he's been Golden State's most consistently excellent player. When Golden State gets any kind of contribution from the five spot, their front court becomes tough to beat. The problem is they only got decent contribution from the five in game 2, when Cousins played well. Golden State's problems haven't been about talent, they've been about execution and competitiveness. They are getting killed by breakdowns defending really basic high ball action and in transition. Things that even bottom barrel lottery teams full of called up G-Leaguers should be expected to stop. And on offense they are going back and forth between over-passing and playing tentative to chucking up lousy perimeter shots that are jump-starting Toronto's transition offense. They've been stubborn in sticking with ineffective line ups and rotation patterns and have failed to make adjustments to their style of play when necessary, especially on defense. Plus they're having issues on the glass, which were really conspicuous last night. Toronto totally outworked them and came down with a ton of long rebounds and second chances and over the back fouls on strong box outs, especially in key moments. Golden State is not fighting for positioning, not fighting for 50/50 balls, and they are not boxing out. They're playing lousy team basketball. And this is inexcusable for a two-time defending champion that's had this core together for years. Toronto is the team full of traded players and free agents who have been slapped together in the past year and a half. They're the ones playing in the Finals for the first time in the history of their franchise. But they are rising to the occasion and Golden State is not. The Warriors are simply not competing at the level that Toronto is and it's the reason they're losing. Toronto has been the tougher and smarter team. And I think Golden State's biggest problem has been an organization-wide sense of entitlement that has had a deleterious effect on their competitiveness all year long. At least six 20+ point losses in Oracle??? They've been playing in ways that would have been unthinkable a season or two ago. 1. It isn't recency bias. I've been saying for a while now that Green is in decline and that this wasn't really a very strong GS team. In May of last year, I was saying Green (and Iggy) were going backward and with an injury the Warriors would be vulnerable this year. 2. Lowry isn't the Raptors 3rd best player. It is Gasol. And in this series, Lowry isn't even their 4th best player because van Fleet is playing better than him. And Gasol is absolutely out playing Green. (And can I say that I'm impressed by Van Fleet and Nurse in terms of attitude and coaching. Van Fleet essentially got played off the floor against the Sixers (16.8 minutes total and I'll bet most of that came in game 1 and 2) and now he's one of the most important people on the team and already played over 33 minutes.) 3. They aren't doing that badly in terms of ORB. They got beat up pretty bad the one game, but for the series, they actually have more ORB than the Raptors, and they actually got out ORB in the two pre-Durant finals against Cleveland. The '15 and '16 Cavs both got more ORB than the Raptors are and more than GS vs. this year in total GS actually has more offensive rebounds than the Raptors. The difference between those teams and this team is not their ability to ORB or their vulnerability giving up ORB. 4. Also, the difference between this team and those teams is also not their non-Green 5. The production of their 5 spot is down as compared to the past not because their 5's are playing less well, but because Green can't shoot. The GS 5's have never generated their own offense. They are offensive threats either as passers or as cutters. With Green not shooting, his man has come off of him and is sagging into the lane. That's taking away passing and cutting lanes that existed in 2014 and 2015. Their 5's in isolation compared to other teams' have always been a weakness. It has worked for them because they got high quality minutes out of Green at the 5, and their total ability to shoot (including Green's at the 4) has allowed cutting and passing space for their 5's. 5. Green's largest value has always come at playing the 5. The lineup of death was the key to the Warriors pre-Durant success and the lineup of death depended on Green being able to play the 5 and shoot (to pull the other team's 5 onto the perimeter and open up cutting lanes for other players). Green doesn't do either of those things very effectively now. The lineup of death was the lineup of death because Green could play the 5. And pre-Durant that was clearly GS's most dangerous lineup. 6. You are massively over estimating his effectiveness in transition in this series. He's got a ton of turnovers and several offensive fouls trying to push the pace. I'm not sure if stats for it are publicly available, but I'd be surprised if the GS offense half court offense isn't more efficient than transition state with the ball in Green's hands. 7. The Raptors are only shooting 45.1%. That's better than the Cavs did in '16, but worse than in '15. It certainly doesn't explain GS being down 3-1. And a lot of their defense has always been fueled by their offense. Their offense has always driven their defense. Their offensive efficiency has always forced teams to play half court offense and to feel pressure of having to keep up, and their offensive efficiency was heavily fueled by the lineup with death, which required Green to be able to play the 5 and be a shooter. You drop this Green onto that 2014-15 Golden State team and there is no lineup and death, and they are much less scary. And I'm not at all sure they beat that beat up Cavs team (that was without Kyrie after game 1 and Love missed the whole series). Edited June 10, 2019 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) In '14-15, when not running the lineup of death, the Warriors used to give the ball to Bogut a lot in the post extended out and use him as a trigger man. That year, he had 4.1 assist/per a 35 min. compared to Green's 4.2, and they had similar assists percent 16.1 vs. 15.4%. That's not the case any more, and it isn't the case because Bogut can't pass any more. It isn't the case because as soon as Bogut catches the ball in those areas, the Raptors are doubling off a non-shooter, including Green (and looking for a turnover that will allow them to run). In '14-15, you couldn't double Bogut in those cases because Green was a reliable shooter. Bogut's offensive utility at the 5 was largely dependent on Green being able to shoot. Bogut is an offensive liability on this current GS team compared to the past because there are now two players (Green and Bogut) that you don't have to defend on the perimeter vs. just Bogut in the past. Edited June 10, 2019 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 yeah, this Warriors team is top heavy. There was a concern about lack of shooting last season too. And they are just old and tired. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chew Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 So does KD suit up and give it his best to lead the Warriors back from a 3-1 deficit? Or does he let them lightskinned dudes crash and burn, which would boost his legacy....? "They couldn't do it again without me" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Chew said: So does KD suit up and give it his best to lead the Warriors back from a 3-1 deficit? Or does he let them lightskinned dudes crash and burn, which would boost his legacy....? "They couldn't do it again without me" Apparently he practiced yesterday and did not look great. Could barely move and walked off the court gingerly with ice strapped all over his legs. Highly doubt he plays. Series ends tonight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Gotta wonder how hard he went in prac to be cleared. The tempo in the finals has been F&F: Tokyo Drift levels. I highly doubt KD will be able to sustain it. Hopefully he doesn't do further damage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Let’s go. Even at 50% KD is better than quinn/mckinnie. I like mckinnie’s effort. He just isn’t very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 this could go very badly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Crabmeat incoming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) Let's say KD Is essentially a 100%, can they win 3 in a row? Edited June 10, 2019 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Let's say KD Is essentially a 100%, can they win 3 in a row? Can? Yes. Will? No. This is as good of an opponent as they're going to get. Warrors have to win three games in a row against them, no loses, and they've only beaten the Raptors once all year. Edited June 10, 2019 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Durant plays tonight, just got an ESPN alert. I predict that GSW comes back from 3-1, wins this thing. Durant gets MVP on 1.5 legs. Press can't believe that Curry couldn't do it alone, needed Durant to bail him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) Im not convinced 100% KD alone will get them through this. Not anymore. Thats why I said this was essentially over if they took advantage of the golden opportunity with him out and pounced in game 4, forcing them to have to win 3 straight. The fact that he's probably more like 70% at best, means this is over Edited June 10, 2019 by Mr. Sinister 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said: Im not convinced 100% KD alone will get them through this. Not anymore. Thats why I said this was essentially over they took the golden opportunity with him out and pounced in game 4, forcing themf to have to win 3 straight. The fact that he's probably more like 70% at best, means this is over This is more likely though. It'd be awesome if it got stretched to a game 7 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 it ends tonight masai is in DC by Wednesday 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 It ends tonight. That crowd is going to be amazing. I just wish we could have Jim Ross special guest in the booth to tell me how the crowd is exploding after a Kawhi "BANG!" three pointer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Up 3 to 1 and I am barely sold on the Raptors. They have played huge up until this point, but Curry is Curry, Thompson is Thompson and even 50% KD will give them a lift. This is why we watch. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 37 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: it ends tonight masai is in DC by Wednesday Talking on the Jump on if they should offer him ownership stake. We gone from too cheap on years to taking off our earings and throwing them at people's feet. Ugh, why not jus put our balls in a ziplock bag as well, I'm terrified they wont get this guy and give a similar deal to a f'n numbskull. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 59 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Let's say KD Is essentially a 100%, can they win 3 in a row? A 100 percent KD absolutely can lead a three-game streak. I can't imagine he's close to that. I do expect the Warriors to win tonight though. Which means, I'm thinking this goes 7. Brian Windhorst made the best point I've seen about the Warriors. All NBA dynasties and mini dynasties ultimately end he same way. (Except for the Bulls who almost certainly ended a year too early by choice). The Heat were run out of the gym by a Spurs team they beat the year before. The Kobe-Gasol Lakers were swept out in the second round. The Kobe-Shaq Lakers looked absolutely helpless against a just pretty good Pistons team. The 89 Lakers got swept by the Pistons. The 88 Celtics lost a season because Bird missed the year and were just another team after that. They didn't really have a dramatic farewell so much as the wheels came off (literally) at once. He pointed out that after the Heat lost to the Spurs, the Heat locker room was just kind of relieved. I don't know if this is actually the year. If Durant comes back, there is no reason they can win two more titles. But I suspect when it ends, it will be an exhausted team getting run into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) Raptors know it's going down tonight. They aren't even bringing somebody in to sing the anthem. They are letting the crowd sing it. 44 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: Brian Windhorst made the best point I've seen about the Warriors. All NBA dynasties and mini dynasties ultimately end he same way. (Except for the Bulls who almost certainly ended a year too early by choice). The Heat were run out of the gym by a Spurs team they beat the year before. The Kobe-Gasol Lakers were swept out in the second round. The Kobe-Shaq Lakers looked absolutely helpless against a just pretty good Pistons team. The 89 Lakers got swept by the Pistons. The 88 Celtics lost a season because Bird missed the year and were just another team after that. They didn't really have a dramatic farewell so much as the wheels came off (literally) at once. Windhorst? I said this 2-3 pages ago Edited June 10, 2019 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Windhorst? I said this three pages 2-3 pages ago Momma There Goes That Man = Brian Windhorst confirmed 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 hey wait 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said: This is more likely though. It'd be awesome if it got stretched to a game 7 though. I think the league office would very much enjoy a game 7 as well. I fully expect Kawhi to pick up two ticky-tack fouls in the first 5 minutes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purbeast Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 The disrespect for the Raptors going on right now is unreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 No one going in would have predicted "Raptors in 5". We look at them and say "same old Raptors". They needed a Khawi jumper to get past the 76ers.... but all their players have been out of their minds. Logically it is very dumb to say, "I just don't them to play big in this big moment." Emotionally I think, "Kyle Lowry NBA champion? Marc Gasol, NBA champion? Pasal Siakim, who? Fred Van Fleet, has he ever shot this well?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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