Brian Orakpo: Current most over hyped Redskin? Or as good as advertised?

[Laron Burgundy]

I see Rak as a very good player, but not as a true superstar. He doesn't take over games. I think he's on the cusp of breaking out, but he hasn't yet. The team is better with him, certainly, but he's not someone whose loss will leave a terrible void.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

[BKSkinsFan]

I personally just don't see where Rak is all that hyped by fans. He's a very good player, but has been dealing with that pec for 2 seasons now. I don't think many would disagree that our D is better when he is on the field. He's a 2 time pro bowler, but if he can't stay healthy, I can't see us breaking the bank to resign him. I also don't see how trading him would benefit us at all either. No gm in their right mind would give up much for a guy that's been seriously injured 2 years in a row.

[potato]

Orakpo is a one trick pony who is very good at his one trick -- getting to the quarterback.

His value to the Redskins became diminished as soon as they moved to the 3-4.

[2cents]

So you think hell go to the front office and say hey, im not elite, but im good, give me a good players contract please?

I just don't like it when people make generally sweeping statements about a situation in which they know nothing and present it as a rock solid fact. And yes, he might. Players have in fact in the past not asked for top money when they know they are not top players. The best thing to do, which most fans can't, is just wait and see. I'm really not worried about it these days because Bruce seems to be doing a decent job of offering players fair market value and getting who we want and under the terms we want. Esp considering the cap crap.

[Riggo-toni]

I like threads like this that push the envelope a touch, but with decent reasoning.

I think Orakpo is a solid compliment to Kerrigan, and would like to have them as our new Manley/Mann combo. Is he overrated? Yeah, probably....but he's already had a better career than Lavar Arrington, whom some nitwits on this site (younguns who never witnessed the like of Wilbur Marshall or Ken Hanburger) practically worshipped.

I do NOT want us to give him a monster deal, but I hope we don't lowball him either. Pay good players good money, but only pay superstars superstar money. Giving Arrington a monster extension crippled our cap and made the departure of Bailey as well as the subsequent lack of talent in the interior of our DL inevitable.

[AuburnTigersFan]

Given the lack of pass rush last season, the return of Carriker and Orakpo should mean a big difference for the secondary. Yes, I believe Orakpo is as good as some believe.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I just don't like it when people make generally sweeping statements about a situation in which they know nothing and present it as a rock solid fact. And yes, he might. Players have in fact in the past not asked for top money when they know they are not top players. The best thing to do, which most fans can't, is just wait and see. I'm really not worried about it these days because Bruce seems to be doing a decent job of offering players fair market value and getting who we want and under the terms we want. Esp considering the cap crap.

Thank you.

why is that so hard to grasp?

[Skinsfan4life83]

Our defense played without him for most of last season, and although we struggled reaching the passer, some of that could be attributed to our defensive line and that Rob Jackson is definitely a downgrade from Orakpo. I think our team is worse without Orakpo, but my question would be how much worse if we groomed a backup this year? Is our team worse if we can use the money saved from him to go after a great corner or safety?

Honestly I hope Orakpo breaks out this year and gets a monster contract and is worth every penny of it, but I definitely don't think he's proven himself to be elite just yet.

Valid points. But my question is who are you going to replace him with? Now remember. Orakpo was the 13th overall pick in the draft. A freak athlete, with size, speed and power. And excellent prospect and definitely would have been picked in the top 15(Should have been earlier). I mean seriously, who are we gonna get in the next couple months that has the kind of ability alone that Rak does? Not to mention the fact that people seem to devalue him for no good reason. He has produced every year, minus the injury, and steadily improved his coverage and run support. He's been in the league four years. Last year should have been his breakout year but the injury hampered that.

When he comes back people will see just how much different our defense will be. He changes what we can do with our secondary and coupled with Kerrigan they will wreak havoc in opposing backfields. It would be foolish to get rid of a integral piece of our defense.

[bowhunter]

(younguns who never witnessed the like of Wilbur Marshall or Ken Hanburger) practically worshipped.

Not a youngun, but I've never heard of KEN Hanburger either. Did he play in the same era as Ted Wysocki? Simon Butz? j/k

---------- Post added March-31st-2013 at 07:34 PM ----------

We complain that we do not groom our own talent, but then when we have talent to groom we don't want him

^^ I agree with this. We drafted him and he's a good player who has not even asked for an exorbitant salary yet.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Not a youngun, but I've never heard of KEN Hanburger either. Did he play in the same era as Ted Wysocki? Simon Butz? j/k

Monte Harvey was one of my favorites :yes:

[BobGriffin]

Did people really forget the saints game ? They even have one of the better olines in the league. Do you not remember how disruptive our front 7 was as a whole ? Rak tipped a couple passes, had a few pressures and Drew Brees completed under 50% of his passes IIRC. Then against the Rams he had a sack early and our front seven was looking beastly once again. Soon as he and then carriker went down we really didn't see a performance close to that until very late in the season (agains the eagle's depleted oline and against dallas) and I believe that was more of a function of Jim Hasletts play calling than individual play. I don't think he is overrated at all he is looked at as a pretty good 3-4 OLB which he is. It's not like people are running around screaming he's elite. I would say he is a notch below that but I could also see him becoming elite.

[KDawg]

Orakpo is a very, very, very good pass rushers. I don't take anyone seriously who tries to use "sacks" as a stand alone argument to production. And I've seen that attempted a few times in here. I've hashed this out many times, so I'll leave it simple:

Orakpo is the best pass rusher on the Redskins roster and it's not all that close.

[2cents]

Thank you.

why is that so hard to grasp?

I blame fantasy football. People win a league and think the real thing is the same and that it is easy.

[Laxpunk2006]

Then against the Rams he had a sack early and our front seven was looking beastly once again. Soon as he and then carriker went down we really didn't see a performance close to that until very late in the season (agains the eagle's depleted oline and against dallas) and I believe that was more of a function of Jim Hasletts play calling than individual play. I don't think he is overrated at all he is looked at as a pretty good 3-4 OLB which he is. It's not like people are running around screaming he's elite. I would say he is a notch below that but I could also see him becoming elite.

Carriker actually went down on the first defensive play. We still were able to get good pressure until after Orakpo went out which goes to show how his presence was missed.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Orakpo is a very, very, very good pass rushers. I don't take anyone seriously who tries to use "sacks" as a stand alone argument to production. And I've seen that attempted a few times in here. I've hashed this out many times, so I'll leave it simple:

Orakpo is the best pass rusher on the Redskins roster and it's not all that close.

No doubt. Orakpo is a Redskin. I hope he plays lights out and retires as a Redskin.

[MumboSauce]

I think Rak is good, very good sometimes. Elite? no...not yet. I've hoped for more from him since being drafted. More pass rush moves other than the speed or bull rush, a rip or swim, etc. better use of hands, better lean.

He needs to get in the 12+ sacks range. Being disruptive and effecting the QB's pocket, speeding him up, forcing rushed passes won't show up on the stat sheet...or the holds, and he gets that.(are hurries tracked?) I like Rak and hope he'll be healthy and have the best season of his career. But I have and do expect more than what he's done so far. At this point I see why he fell to our pick. Still very good though.

[superozman]

I guess this post might be unwarrented, because it's absolutely ok to discuss a player's ability on a message board (its the point of them), its just frustrating to see people try their hardest in their free time to dis-credit a hard working player. Especially a pro-bowl caliber player, who switched positions to satisfy a team, and has excelled in almost ever aspect.

But carry on! He's a player I want around for a long time!

[SJValleySkinz]

I think Rak is good, very good sometimes. Elite? no...not yet. I've hoped for more from him since being drafted. More pass rush moves other than the speed or bull rush, a rip or swim, etc. better use of hands, better lean.

He needs to get in the 12+ sacks range. Being disruptive and effecting the QB's pocket, speeding him up, forcing rushed passes won't show up on the stat sheet...or the holds, and he gets that.(are hurries tracked?) I like Rak and hope he'll be healthy and have the best season of his career. But I have and do expect more than what he's done so far. At this point I see why he fell to our pick. Still very good though.

You see why the Bills drafted Aaron Maybin ahead of him?

[KCClybun]

I think Rak is good, very good sometimes. Elite? no...not yet. I've hoped for more from him since being drafted. More pass rush moves other than the speed or bull rush, a rip or swim, etc. better use of hands, better lean.

He needs to get in the 12+ sacks range. Being disruptive and effecting the QB's pocket, speeding him up, forcing rushed passes won't show up on the stat sheet...or the holds, and he gets that.(are hurries tracked?) I like Rak and hope he'll be healthy and have the best season of his career. But I have and do expect more than what he's done so far. At this point I see why he fell to our pick. Still very good though.

If he does all that stuff you say he already does, what does it matter how many sacks he gets? It's just a number.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

If he does all that stuff you say he already does, what does it matter how many sacks he gets? It's just a number.

Exactly. I bet if you polled the players and asked them who the best defensive player on the team is...Rak would win. And yes, I know how good London was/is.

I still don't really understand this whole argument. It made more sense when he was healthy to have this discussion, because at that time we could've traded him. I have been a huge fan of RJackson since he's been here, just because I love the unheralded guys who step up and earn respect. The "overhyped" discussion is not as interesting as discussing his value, the drop off from him to RJackson, what we might get for him, etc. That convo died in St. Louis when Rak went down.

I feel like some posters would rather see Rak struggle, just so they can say "I said we shoulda traded him, but I got blasted for it!", etc. It's pretty sad. Rak is one of the good guys in the league, and I'll be rooting for him to pee on all the naysayers.

[brandymac27]

I happen to think he's a really good player that brings a lot to our defense. Maybe he's not elite, but the fact that there was a noticeable difference in how the entire defense was playing when he got hurt should give us some clue as to how much of a difference he really makes.

I hope he stays healthy (and those using that as a reason to replace/cut him are jumping the gun IMPO). Let's let him play, hope he stays healthy, and has a phenomenal season. If he does, and wants top $$$, then IMO he earned it, and we should give it to him. What he brings to the table is far more valuable than what we'd get in return for him.

[Renegade7]

He's not playing like his draft position, but he's anything but a bum. He's been productive, and you are not going to just pick up his raw talent off the street or waiver wire. I wouldn't give him a max deal because of his injuries, but he's already earned a new contract in my eye. This year will determine how much money, but letting him walk would create a hole we don't need to fill right now.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Folks I know you all probably understand this but I think it bears repeating - sacks are not the only way you measure the effectiveness of a pass rusher.

There's been a lot of cherry picked stats thrown up the last 24 hours that I've left (and then laughably had side swipes taken for not responding to every post doing that); but let's look at the COMPLETE picture as regards the above Martin over Brian's first 3 years in the league verses the top ranked players by number.

All Linebacker Statistics for Season's 2009 through 2011.

Total Pass Rush Pressure. (Combined # of sacks/ QB Hits/ QB Hurries.).

1. DeMarcus Ware. Dallas Cowboys. 227 Total Pass Rush Pressure/ 1437 Pass Rush Snaps- 15.8 % of his Rush Snaps he got some kind of QB pressure.

2. Tamba Hali. Kansas City Chiefs. 216 TPRP/ 1337 PRS- 16.2 %.

3. Trent Cole. Philadelphia Eagles. 206 TPRP/ 1329 PRS- 16 %.

4. Clay Matthews III. Green Bay Packers. 172 TPRP/ 1221 PRS- 14 %.

5. James Harrison. Pittsburgh Steelers. 153 TPRP/ 992 PRS- 15.6 %.

6. LaMarr Woodley. Pittsburgh Steelers. 148 TPRP/ 967 PRS- 15.3 %.

7. Brian Orakpo. Washington Redskins. 144 TPRP/ 1111 PRS- 12.10 %.

Pretty much keeping with the OP. A good-very good edge rusher. The best unquestionably on the team. But FAR from in the top bracket in the pro game. And one who's natural talent SHOULD have him, IMHO, a lot higher than that. As exemplified by him lagging behind the others in the percentage of times his pass rush snaps result in QB pressure of some description. 5 years in, and without using the Saints opener as has already been put up within the thread as that's WAY too small a sample size to say his game has improved and changed from the 47 that went before; it remains to be seen whether he can up his game to the level his talents deserve. Or merely stay at the level he has been. At this stage of his career, that shouldn't really be a hope but a given.

If you take the same 7 players over the period based on tackles, again, as noted in the OP, his coverage skills lack well behind. (Ranked these in descending order of total Combined Tackles, but the more prudent stat is Solo Tackles and Solo Tackle %.).

1. James Harrison. Pittsburgh Steelers. 238 Combined Tackles/ 178 Solo- 74.8 % Total Tackles were Solo Tackles. 7 Pass Defended.

2. DeMarcus Ware. Dallas Cowboys. 181 CT/ 148 S- 81. 8% TTS. 9 PD.

3. Tamba Hali. Kansas City Chiefs. 179 CT/ 130 S- 73 % TTS. 4 PD

4. Trent Cole. Philadelphia Eagles. 166 CT/ 139 S- 83.8 % TTS. 3 PD.

5. Brian Orakpo. Washington Redskins. 165 CT/ 107 S- 64.8 % TTS. 9 PD.

6. Clay Matthews III. Green Bay Packers. 161 CT/ 128 S- 79.6 % TTS. 20 PD.

7. LaMarr Woodley. Pittsburgh Steelers. 151 CT/ 111 S- 73.5 % TTS. 12 PD.

Even in playmaking ability (Sacks/ Forced Fumbles/ Interceptions) he lags behind the same 6 players over the same period. And Brian is the only one to have just one double digit sack season over the duration.

1. DeMarcus Ware. Dallas Cowboys. 46 Sacks/ 9 Forced Fumbles.

2. Tamba Hali. Kansas City Chiefs. 35 S/ 12 FF.

3. Trent Cole. Philadelphia Eagles. 33.5 S/ 4 FF.

4. LaMarr Woodley. Green Bay Packers. 32.5 S/ 4 FF/ 3 Interceptions- 1 Touchdown.

5. James Harrison. Pittsburgh Steelers. 29.5 S/ 13 FF/ 2 INT.

6.Clay Matthews III. Green Bay Packers. 29.5 S/ 6 FF/ 4 INT- 2 TD.

7. Brian Orakpo. Washington Redskins. 28.5 S/ 5 FF.

Again, for those asking still not sure (and those piggybacking off the question with tawdry snipes); the thread IS relevant at this time as Orakpo is not only in the last year of his rookie contract, and all that entails as regards this teams future with him; but continues to be, IMHO on PO/ plain first hand eye sight of watching games, and the above stats to confirm those thoughts; HIGHLY overrated by many of our fanbase.

He is a good-very good player. The best on this team as an out and out edge rusher no question. But far from top end in the league, And one who's talents should probably have him better than what he currently is. A player who's development appears to of stalled.

And the second question as to what worth is better to the franchise going forward, either extending him into another contract or cashing in on his status verse whether we could ultimately do better; is VERY pertinent indeed.

If this thread had 'no worth' and was just a 'call out thread' from yours truly (still trying not to laugh at that one), I'm sure the mods would of shut it down by now and reprimanded myself accordingly.

Hail.

[MartinC]

He is a good-very good player. The best on this team as an out and out edge rusher no question.

I think thats pretty much the consensus opinion on ES.

But FAR from top end in the league

Here is where language and maybe hyperbole get in the way of understanding. I think most would agree he is not one of the very elite pass rushers in the league but I think I would take issue with you saying he is far from that and emphasising that in capitals. I would agree he is outside the very top bracket as a pure edge rusher but not that far off.

And one who's talents should probably have him better than what he currently is. A player who's development appears to of stalled.

Thats a subjective opinion and one you are certainly entitled to. Its not without some truth IMO but him being injured last season meant we did not really get a feel for what his current development is. I thought he played very well in the Saints game and flashed in the Rams game until he got hurt - was that a trend or a flash in the pan? Hopefully he can stay healthy all year and we can find out this year.

And the second question as to what worth is better to the franchise going forward, either extending him into another contract or cashing in on his status verse whether we could ultimately do better; is VERY pertinent indeed.

I dont think there is any realistic chance we are thinking of trading him this offseason - coming off that injury he just does not have the value making that something we would even consider. Lets see how this year plays out - then the front office have some decisions to make.

[Hiro]

The thing with Orakpo, to me, is that we haven't really been able to judge him fairly since the 2011 season.

He played 1.5 games last year. That's it. So in reality, we haven't been able to see any of the fruits of his labor to improve himself going into 2012, which by all reports suggested that he was ready to take that next step.

Me personally, I'm not ready to cast judgement on whether he's an elite guy or just a very good pass rusher until I see him in a full 2013 season.