Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 What could possibly be more fascinating in Washington DC than a QB controversy? This is a borderline embarrassing QB controversy though. This is like the Kent Graham/Dave Brown QB battle in New York - only if those two guys were each six years older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 This is a borderline embarrassing QB controversy though. This is like the Kent Graham/Dave Brown QB battle in New York - only if those two guys were each six years older.It only seems that way to you because you can't tell the difference between Kent Graham and John Beck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 This is a borderline embarrassing QB controversy though. This is like the Kent Graham/Dave Brown QB battle in New York - only if those two guys were each six years older. Really? Tarvaris Jackson vs. Charlie Whitehurst is better? The biggest mistake Pete Carroll will make in his run in the NFL is allowing Tarvaris to be the starter without competition from Whitehurst. Now THAT, is embarassing. At least Rex went to a Super Bowl, and he still has to compete. What has T-Jack ever done? Or Whitehurst for that matter? There are far worse (Newton vs. Clausen, Dalton vs. Gradkowski, and lord help us, Smith vs. Kaepernick) QB situations around the NFL. It's only embarrassing if you listen to anything the national media has to say, which you shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddub52 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I've seen Grossman throw a few in the dirt as well.I have a really hard time understanding why everyone has to want one or the other. I want the one that Shanahan thinks gives us the best chance... short term, long term, whatever. They've played pretty much dead even. I don't get why there has to be sides... I wasnt choosing a side. I was just pointing out that the comparisons to Rodgers, Brees and Manning were a little bit over the top. That being said, Im still not really sure who I want as the starter wither Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Rex is gonna start this year and Beck will come eventually during the season. He wants to win now and then grab the rookie next year to start midway thru the season. No way is he gonna allow 3 straight losing season. He needs a winning season this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 exactly.. and other than malcomb, we dont have one. so hopefully beck doesnt do that in season. This is said with tongue in cheek, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 http://blogs.fredericksburg.com/redskinsjournal/2011/08/29/news-notes-brandon-banks-the-return-game-laron-landry-tampa-bay-and-more/ * Shanahan was asked to break down the differences between John Beck and Rex Grossman. “Everybody’s got different styles,” he said. “I think where most people make a comparison that they’re looking at speed of a quarterback. John’s probably a little bit faster than Rex, and Rex has got a little bit more experience in the National Football League than John does. But besides that, we ask quarterbacks to execute their offense. Everybody’s got their strengths. Everybody’s got their weaknesses. But like I said, I’ve got two guys that can play in the National Football League and I’ve got confidence in both guys, and whoever wins the job, I feel very good about our quarterback situation.” * Jabar Gaffney said Beck has a bit more swagger than one would expect from him as a quarterback, given his down-to-earth, personable, man-on-the-street personality. He said the same thing a week ago, but took it a bit further Monday, mentioning his game preparation and his ability to get his teammates fired up. “[His excitement is] not normal at all,” Gaffney said. Edit: Thinking about Shanny's quotes over time he would have to be playing one heck of a Jedi trick if he starts Grossman because to my ears he seems to hint Beck: Shanny has talked multiple times about Beck being faster -- speed enhances this offense and if Shanny didn't care I don't think he'd keep mentioning it He has talked more than once about avoiding mistakes and didn't gloss over Grossman's INTs against the Colts -- which is Grossman's rap, and yeah I get ASF doesn't buy that turnovers is an issue with Grossman, and that's cool, but others disagree And as to Gaffney's comments about preparation, it was echoed by Chris Russell as I mentioned previously -- Shanny early before camp mentioned that he looks for a QB who is the first guy in and the last guy to leave, that sounds more like Beck as opposed to Grossman at least from what I've read/heard on the radio. ---------- Post added August-29th-2011 at 08:23 PM ---------- DG: http://www.espn980.com/audiovault/# if you check out the audio vault for Chris Russell 8/25 -- that's one of the times where Russell talks about Beck staying late with Grossman checking out early and his opinion is that it might hurt him. Actually Russell, is one of the few media people who actually likes Grossman to start over Beck so he's not a guy who actually slams him just to slam him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 i'm talking ravens 1s vs. redskins 1s because that's our apples to apples. i read how beck was "saved by the running game" and other nonsense like it. as if somehow he just lucks into better running plays than grossman, or even better it's some secretive play calling that's used to pull the wool over everyones eyes.sorry for not believing that the team running the ball better with beck is somehow an indictment on him not being as good of quarterback. we're going to run the ball a lot this year, and if one guy gets more out of it for whatever reason then that's the guy i want playing. and that throw that got picked off by indy's 2nd or 3rd lineback was a perfect example of just a horrendous decision. beck's INT was a 50/50 ball where one guy didn't go for it and gave up on his route. he saw man, he threw deep (not to mention only 1 receiver was running a pattern on that play). i am not knocking beck for the running game being good under him. but conversely, using the running game's production to somehow support beck is just plain stupid at this point. it is a small sample size and we have no idea how kyle was gameplanning for the other team. helu's run on the sidelines.. do you think that was because of beck or just a good play by helu? hightowers long run versus the colts? was it beck's rollouts and mobility that caused that run even though the colts have no tape on beck and wouldnt gameplan anyways? was hightowers td vs the ravens somehow attributable to beck despite awesome oline blocking that sprung the play? i do agree on rex's pick.. it was a stupid decision. it was a "gunslinger" type mistake.. he will have to limit those in this offense. ---------- Post added August-29th-2011 at 07:45 PM ---------- First people say you cant give Beck the nod cause its little sample(preseason) but you're going to give the benfit of the doubt to Grossman when you know dang well Grossman has been horrible in his career. And don't use the sacks as indication cause two was not his fault. One Williams wiffed on and another he took a sack instead of forcing a pass. Other than that Beck seems to feel pressure better then Grossman. And if Grossman does feel pressure he panicks he doesnt know how to escape that. I think your wrong saying Grossman has better pocket awareness not from what I seen. from what i have seen this preseason, i once again, disagree on the pocket presence issue. it is obvious that rex has a better knowledge of the system. he knows better when he needs to get the ball out and is more aware of where defensive pressure is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Looking at it from the Grossman better pocket passer angle, by game 10 of Beck starting that may not be the case, whereas game 10 of Grossman starting won't narrow or reverse the mobility aspect. That's a great point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWinSkins83 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 i am not knocking beck for the running game being good under him. but conversely, using the running game's production to somehow support beck is just plain stupid at this point. it is a small sample size and we have no idea how kyle was gameplanning for the other team. helu's run on the sidelines.. do you think that was because of beck or just a good play by helu? hightowers long run versus the colts? was it beck's rollouts and mobility that caused that run even though the colts have no tape on beck and wouldnt gameplan anyways? was hightowers td vs the ravens somehow attributable to beck despite awesome oline blocking that sprung the play? i do agree on rex's pick.. it was a stupid decision. it was a "gunslinger" type mistake.. he will have to limit those in this offense. ---------- Post added August-29th-2011 at 07:45 PM ---------- from what i have seen this preseason, i once again, disagree on the pocket presence issue. it is obvious that rex has a better knowledge of the system. he knows better when he needs to get the ball out and is more aware of where defensive pressure is coming from. He knows when to get the ball off but not by his pocket awareness. His first throw a olb was baring down on him n he didnt even feel it. He was locked onto his WR. The ball flaudered in the air while he was hit, that could have been a INT. Just some stuff I see tells me he does care for pocket awareness. He has too much trust in the online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Actually DG as for intangibles, Peter King does a good job of capturing the work ethic aspect of Beck in this except in case you are curious: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 That 97 yd drive was against 2nd stringers. Let me know of a drive that Beck leads them to score, instead of relying on the run game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 That 97 yd drive was against 2nd stringers. Let me know of a drive that Beck leads them to score, instead of relying on the run game. Beck has led the team to a score in the majority of his drives. And to your point, yeah Grossman looked awesome against the Colts 2nd stringers without Hightower leading the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Beck has led the team to a score in the majority of his drives. And to your point, yeah Grossman looked awesome against the Colts 2nd stringers without Hightower leading the way. Two minute drills in both games he started. All him, not Hightower. Pass attempts are much higher. Keep drives alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger187126 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 i am not knocking beck for the running game being good under him. but conversely, using the running game's production to somehow support beck is just plain stupid at this point. it is a small sample size and we have no idea how kyle was gameplanning for the other team. helu's run on the sidelines.. do you think that was because of beck or just a good play by helu? hightowers long run versus the colts? was it beck's rollouts and mobility that caused that run even though the colts have no tape on beck and wouldnt gameplan anyways? was hightowers td vs the ravens somehow attributable to beck despite awesome oline blocking that sprung the play? i do agree on rex's pick.. it was a stupid decision. it was a "gunslinger" type mistake.. he will have to limit those in this offense. rex's pick wasn't really gun slinger. he dropped back, saw his guy, completely ignored the linebacker standing in front of his guy and let it go. he did a presnap read of the defense and assumed the LB was blitzing so that was going to be his hot guy, once the ball was snapped and the LB dropped out he just threw it anyway. a gun slinger is like favre running out to the sideline and while falling down throwing a ball across his body into triple coverage. rex's was just lack of recognition. i am not trying to insinuate that beck = better running game. i'm just tired of ASF and some other saying "beck's drives were only good because the running game bailed him out" so i went the other way with it. there is merit to a roll-out qb helping a cutback run, more so than whatever "luck" people want to attribute the running game looking better with beck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadium-Armory Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 One bad pick in the pre season does not a quarterback make. I *still* think its Rex's to lose, primarily based on experience. If he flounders after a few games, in with Beck. That's my prediction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santanathegreat Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 One bad pick in the pre season does not a quarterback make. True....however, 40 bad picks with 24 fumbles does make a quarterback. I think Oldfan is definitely right. I think the Shanny's see more upside in Beck. They see a fresher, faster, more athletic, player with more upside. I think they will value this over Grossman's "experience" in the offense. Considering Beck is 30, I don't think they are nearly as concerned with the lack of experience as alot of people tend to make it seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tibbidoe Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 The way I see it is that if Beck and Grossman are really so close, then the edge actually goes to Beck. He's been in the system for less time and had less playing time in it. This is Beck's second season in it and Rex's third. Plus Rex had the 3 starts to end last season. If Beck is really so close to being named starter, that should show that the Shannys see more potential in him running the offense. Maybe that's too simple of a way to look at it, but it makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 The biggest mistake Pete Carroll will make in his run in the NFL is allowing Tarvaris to be the starter without competition from Whitehurst. That's not Carroll's biggest mistake. It's not bringing in a real QB to compete for the position. Both of those guys are awful. Now ... back to the beating of the dead horse that is the Beck vs. Grossman debate. ---------- Post added August-29th-2011 at 11:03 PM ---------- True....however, 40 bad picks with 24 fumbles does make a quarterback. I think Oldfan is definitely right. I think the Shanny's see more upside in Beck. They see a fresher, faster, more athletic, player with more upside. I think they will value this over Grossman's "experience" in the offense. Considering Beck is 30, I don't think they are nearly as concerned with the lack of experience as alot of people tend to make it seem. BUT, do they see a QB of the future in Beck who is 30 years old and with little time left in terms of viable NFL lifespan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelado Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 That's not Carroll's biggest mistake. It's not bringing in a real QB to compete for the position. Both of those guys are awful. Now ... back to the beating of the dead horse that is the Beck vs. Grossman debate. ---------- Post added August-29th-2011 at 11:03 PM ---------- BUT, do they see a QB of the future in Beck who is 30 years old and with little time left in terms of viable NFL lifespan? I'm not suggesting either of these guys are Steve Young, but Steve didn't take over the starting role in SF until he was about 30. He went on to play for another 7+ seasons. Since these guys haven't played every year, they don't have as much wear on their bodies, and they may be able to play longer (as long as they keep themselves in shape). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 http://blogs.fredericksburg.com/redskinsjournal/2011/08/29/news-notes-brandon-banks-the-return-game-laron-landry-tampa-bay-and-more/ * Shanahan was asked to break down the differences between John Beck and Rex Grossman. “Everybody’s got different styles,” he said. “I think where most people make a comparison that they’re looking at speed of a quarterback. John’s probably a little bit faster than Rex, and Rex has got a little bit more experience in the National Football League than John does. But besides that, we ask quarterbacks to execute their offense. Everybody’s got their strengths. Everybody’s got their weaknesses. But like I said, I’ve got two guys that can play in the National Football League and I’ve got confidence in both guys, and whoever wins the job, I feel very good about our quarterback situation.” Edit: Thinking about Shanny's quotes over time he would have to be playing one heck of a Jedi trick if he starts Grossman because to my ears he seems to hint Beck: Shanny has talked multiple times about Beck being faster -- speed enhances this offense and if Shanny didn't care I don't think he'd keep mentioning it He has talked more than once about avoiding mistakes and didn't gloss over Grossman's INTs against the Colts -- which is Grossman's rap, and yeah I get ASF doesn't buy that turnovers is an issue with Grossman, and that's cool, but others disagree I don't think you're likely to get any useful info out of Shanahan. It's probably a mistake to try. There's that curious sentence, "We ask quarterbacks to execute their offense." That probably means something to Shanahan, but it's deeply coded. I could tell you what I think that means, but why bother? It was intended to be truthful while revealing nothing. I just looked back at my QB grades for Grossman (Steelers, Ravens) and Beck (Colts, Ravens). It's very stark as I see it (grading only the QB performance in plays): Drives: Grossman 9, Beck 9 Passes: Grossman 41, Beck 27 Passes Per Drive: Grossman 4.6, Beck 3.0 Outstanding QB plays: Grossman 25, Beck 7 Terrible QB plays: Beck 9, Grossman 3 Median air distance per catchable pass: Grossman 9, Beck 4 Even if I'm biased, I can't see how to score this close. For example, that air distance spec is simply fact. As is number of passes in the same number of drives. I do see what people see in Beck. There's a lot to like about him. I simply haven't seen equal performance in context: high-level play in difficult situations. To believe in Beck as starting QB is simply a leap of faith. It's a projection. He gives you just enough film to imagine what he might be. But it's like watching a great college player, and comparing that to actual NFL performance in difficult situations (Grossman). You can imagine that the college player might be better than the NFL player, but you aren't actually seeing the evidence, so far. You're seeing what you project. It's possible that the projection is correct. But, in my experience, the difference between potential and performance is large. In this situation, it's an unnecessary gamble, because I expect Grossman will execute this offense at a very high level, with very low downside. Beck? I think his performance could be awful or very good, there's no telling. He hasn't been tested like Grossman has, this preseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 That is a play you force every time. If you have single coverage with no safety help, and all your other options are well covered, then you throw it up there and give the WR a chance. You don't have to force any play if it isn't there. Joe Montana said some of his great plays were often throwaways. The quarterback is responsible for the management of the offense, not a covered wide receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santanathegreat Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Atlanta Skins Fan -- the problem with your biased numbers is that you are taking a sample size of 3 preseason games where the QBs have gotten a total of 22 drives, all the while ignoring practices altogether. You do realize that the Shanahans have seen much, much, much more of these two QBs than you or anyone else on this board has, right? If Shanny Sr. based his decision on your criteria, then he is a moron. We all know that's not the case...Shanny is going to look at everything equally -- games, practices, the classroom, etc. He's not going to decide who the starter is based off of median air distance per catchable pass from 2 preseason games (which is quite honestly the silliest statistic I've ever heard of in my life). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadium-Armory Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Atlanta Skins Fan -- the problem with your biased numbers is that you are taking a sample size of 3 preseason games where the QBs have gotten a total of 22 drives, all the while ignoring practices altogether. You do realize that the Shanahans have seen much, much, much more of these two QBs than you or anyone else on this board has, right? If Shanny Sr. based his decision on your criteria, then he is a moron. We all know that's not the case...Shanny is going to look at everything equally -- games, practices, the classroom, etc. He's not going to decide who the starter is based off of median air distance per catchable pass from 2 preseason games (which is quite honestly the silliest statistic I've ever heard of in my life). Is your point that the coach is better suited to make this decision? Way to get out there on that limb. He's a guy on a message board having some fun, roll with it bra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 ...BUT, do they see a QB of the future in Beck who is 30 years old and with little time left in terms of viable NFL lifespan?I think six years is a reasonable estimate for Beck's service barring a serious injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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