Agree with this statement? "The short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILLED this team's future"

[CurseReversed]

If the redskins had drafted aaron rogers instead of JC we are singing a far different tune now.

[seantaylor=god]

I don't need to write a long essay to answer this question.

Gibbs did not fail. When he left, this team was in prime position to make so deep playoff runs. Danny and Vinny messed up this team when they failed to keep the continuity by hiring a new coach in house and going for a big splash, which ended up being Zorn.

Speaking of Zorn, it was Joe's team who started off 6-2. Then Vinny and Dan got a hold of it and he finished his last 24 games 6-18.

Gibbs II was a success. Everything after was some booty

I couldnt disagree with this more. If you can't see that under Gibbs 2 we were a old, veteran team, overachieving and not built for the future, than I don't know what to tell you.

Prime position to make deep playoff runs? Pure delusion.

[Woofer]

I better start seeing some more respect for Gibbs in here

I agree.

Gibbs II was NOT a failure. If he'd have stayed one more year, we'd have made a serious run in the playoffs. Maybe in a trip to the big one.

Part of the problems faced by Gibbs in his return:

Vinny. I put a lot of blame on Vinny, too. Plus some for Snyder since he let Vinny do what he did.

I'm also going to spread some blame on some "fans". I'll never forget the times, during Gibbs last year, when the fans at home were chanting "Joe must Go!" The camera showed Gibbs and you could tell by the look on his face that he heard it. All this while leading the team to the playoffs the same year Taylor was killed.

Way to go fans. You got what you wanted. Happy yet?

---------- Post added May-22nd-2011 at 02:58 PM ----------

...

Prime position to make deep playoff runs? Pure delusion.

Projection is an interesting thing. I've spoken to some mental health professionals about this phenomenon, since my ex-wife was extremely adept at this. They told me that this happens because the person doing the projecting recognizes the behavior, but their ego cannot accept that the behavior is coming from themselves - so these poor people turn around and accuse others of being what they are.

It's quite fascinating to watch if you can stay objective enough to realize what's happening.

[Wildbunny]

If the redskins had drafted aaron rogers instead of JC we are singing a far different tune now.

Maybe not, since he would have been learning the game behind.... Mark Brunell instead of Brett Favre.

You can bet Rodgers would have had the fate Campbell had here.

With our OL, he wouldn't have make it through the Zorn era.

[Darth Tater]

It is self-evident that this statement is false. The only thing that can KILL the Redskins' future is if the NFL disbanded.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Maybe not, since he would have been learning the game behind.... Mark Brunell instead of Brett Favre.

I agree that you can't necessarily just assume he'd have panned out in exactly the same way.

You can bet Rodgers would have had the fate Campbell had here.

With our OL, he wouldn't have make it through the Zorn era.

I'm not sure...he's been sacked a lot over the past few years in GB.

[Hail-to-da-skins-21]

As far as Joe Gibbs failure to change the culture of our system is concern.....u do know the only person who can change the culture of any team is the owner and not the head coach ...I mean hell when Marty fired Vinny he was rehired even if Gibbs told Snyder to let him go there is no guarantee Vinny wouldn't have been rehired

I thought Gibbs 2.0 didn't have enough time to create a winning culture......he only had enough time to lay down the building blocks which he did.......the problem came after he left and we hired Zorn and then had probably one of the worst draft classes of all time.........and don't tell me that team didn't have any talent after Gibbs left they were 6-2 at one point.....Our circus clown of a HC and Owner was the problem.....I mean jeez wut have we gained at all from the Zorn era sides Rak which was a no brainier of a decision and Hall ? Our franchise basically went on hold for two years without doing anything but get older ......

[Cool as Crud]

Maybe not, since he would have been learning the game behind.... Mark Brunell instead of Brett Favre.

You can bet Rodgers would have had the fate Campbell had here.

With our OL, he wouldn't have make it through the Zorn era.

"When Rodgers arrived, Favre made no bones about refusing to be a mentor to him, stating in an interview that it wasn’t his job. Nobody had done it for him, and besides, Favre’s No. 1 responsibility was to win games."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/32579374.html

[DeadExField]

It definitely set us back another handful of season, but I don't think it KILLED the future entirely. If it killed the future then what the FO is trying to do now would not be happening.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Projection is an interesting thing. I've spoken to some mental health professionals about this phenomenon, since my ex-wife was extremely adept at this. They told me that this happens because the person doing the projecting recognizes the behavior, but their ego cannot accept that the behavior is coming from themselves - so these poor people turn around and accuse others of being what they are.

It's quite fascinating to watch if you can stay objective enough to realize what's happening.

God, I hope for your sake that this was an intentionally ironic post

[polywog999]

I think that the whole Jason Campbell fiasco really set the franchise back. Campbell had all the physical tools to make it. The one thing that he was sorely laking in, was that he could not throw to a spot. He had to throw to a person. That is why he can never be a great QB. The free agent moves were even worse. I don't even want to talk about it. Ouch!

[Darrell Green Fan]

I agree.

Gibbs II was NOT a failure. If he'd have stayed one more year, we'd have made a serious run in the playoffs. Maybe in a trip to the big one.

I guess we see things differently. That 2007 team had a lot of problems, starting with no QB, horrible lines on both sides of the ball, age and no depth. You will never convince me they were poised to make a deep run. Hell in both of their playoff runs under Gibbs it took a miraculous run in December to sneak in by grabbing the last spot. Not once did they scare anyone when they got there.

Look guys I love Joe Gibbs as much as anyone here. This was not meant as a Gibbs bashing. I just took exception to the posters who claim that Gibbs left the team in great shape. In the earlier thread I forgot to mention the Brunnel deal where he gave up a 3rd when everyone in the league knew the Jags were about to release him. So counting that and the 2nd in the Bailey trade that was totally unnecessary Joe Gibbs traded a first, a second, four 3rds and two 4ths and got basically nothing in return (assuming Portis and Bailey are a wash). If Vinny had traded this many high picks for virtually nothing he would have been bashed all over this board, and for good reason.

The way you win in this league is to develop young, cheap players through the draft. The team Joe Gibbs left had very few of those types of players. And trading those picks is a big reason why.

[KDawg]

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle between the two camps.

Gibbs II wasn't a failure. But it wasn't a success, either.

When he came in, it was clear that the team was going to be making win now moves in order to compete now. Rebuilding was never the plan, retooling was. Hence the big spending strategy and throwing around of draft picks. I doubt Coach would have signed on if signing on involved purging the roster and rebuilding through youth. When he signed the five year deal, I think he and Snyder both knew that there was a good chance he wouldn't complete the agreement due to Coach's life circumstances (this is an assumption, but one I firmly believe, despite what either said). The team was going to be built around making a run for a title while Gibbs was here.

That is where the failure lies. Snyder brought in Gibbs to win now, hoping that we'd get some kind of major success for his tenure and rebuilding after. Problem was, we didn't have the core in place to retool, so Gibbs tenure was boom or bust.

He succeeded in the fact that we had two of the best three teams that we've had in 20 years under him. That can't be looked down upon and needs to be kept in mind.

Where the plan failed was there wasn't a long term vision behind Gibbs' tenure. There was no plan for the post-Gibbs Redskins. Snyder could have said, when Gibbs signed the five year deal, "I think we should give you three years to win now, and the last two years of the deal we need to begin purging the roster for rebuilding purposes. If you don't make it all five years, we'll hire an assistant (Gregg Williams) to oversee the rebuilding and give him a chance at the head coaching job."

The failure lies in the fact that Snyder didn't account for that... And if he did, he gave in with that conviction in order to make the big splash and bring Gibbs back to the Redskins.

On one hand, a short term winning strategy. I don't know many fans that weren't excited to have Coach back.

One the other, he was setting us up for long term failure.

That strategy fell on Snyder's shoulders. Gibbs' failure was that he didn't execute the win now strategy to the point where we saw major successes. He succeeded, again, in the fact that we had two of the best three teams we've had in 20 years.

I don't view this as a black and white like some do. I think there were positives and negatives to both angles. I think the largest negative, however, falls on Snyder's lack of a vision.

This is where we suffer. We have great short term visions that haven't worked out, but the long term has been almost a complete afterthought.

[NewCliche21]

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle between the two camps.

Gibbs II wasn't a failure. But it wasn't a success, either.

When he came in, it was clear that the team was going to be making win now moves in order to compete now. Rebuilding was never the plan, retooling was. Hence the big spending strategy and throwing around of draft picks. I doubt Coach would have signed on if signing on involved purging the roster and rebuilding through youth. When he signed the five year deal, I think he and Snyder both knew that there was a good chance he wouldn't complete the agreement due to Coach's life circumstances (this is an assumption, but one I firmly believe, despite what either said). The team was going to be built around making a run for a title while Gibbs was here.

That is where the failure lies. Snyder brought in Gibbs to win now, hoping that we'd get some kind of major success for his tenure and rebuilding after. Problem was, we didn't have the core in place to retool, so Gibbs tenure was boom or bust.

He succeeded in the fact that we had two of the best three teams that we've had in 20 years under him. That can't be looked down upon and needs to be kept in mind.

Where the plan failed was there wasn't a long term vision behind Gibbs' tenure. There was no plan for the post-Gibbs Redskins. Snyder could have said, when Gibbs signed the five year deal, "I think we should give you three years to win now, and the last two years of the deal we need to begin purging the roster for rebuilding purposes. If you don't make it all five years, we'll hire an assistant (Gregg Williams) to oversee the rebuilding and give him a chance at the head coaching job."

The failure lies in the fact that Snyder didn't account for that... And if he did, he gave in with that conviction in order to make the big splash and bring Gibbs back to the Redskins.

On one hand, a short term winning strategy. I don't know many fans that weren't excited to have Coach back.

One the other, he was setting us up for long term failure.

That strategy fell on Snyder's shoulders. Gibbs' failure was that he didn't execute the win now strategy to the point where we saw major successes. He succeeded, again, in the fact that we had two of the best three teams we've had in 20 years.

I don't view this as a black and white like some do. I think there were positives and negatives to both angles. I think the largest negative, however, falls on Snyder's lack of a vision.

This is where we suffer. We have great short term visions that haven't worked out, but the long term has been almost a complete afterthought.

I agree with almost all of this, but he didn't set us up for long-term failure in the least. Took a shot downfield in trying to win then, but we didn't go into 2008 with two draft picks like we did after Zorn/Vinny/Snyder destroyed what Gibbs had built. I mean, really go back and look at the 2007 team sans Rabach and Campbell. That was a very solid foundation. If not for Sean's death, I really believe that Coach would've stayed on and we would be under the third year of Gregg Williams arguing whether or not our 26th overall pick this year was better than our 24th overall last year.

[Darrell Green Fan]

To be clear I never considered Gibbs 2 a total failure. Sure it was disappointing not to get that old magic back but I guess looking back that was unrealistic, especially with this owner.

I have been dealing strictly with the contention that he left the team in great shape going forward. I just don't see it that way. You don't trade that many high picks and not have it come back to haunt you 2-3 years down the road.

[KDawg]

I agree with the opinion that Coach Gibbs himself didn't set us up for long-term failure.

I disagree, though, in the fact that we weren't set up for long term failure.

We had an aging roster thanks to the win now strategy that came in with Coach Gibbs. Eleven of our 22 starters, and our ENTIRE starting offensive line were 30 years old or older in 2007.

We were set up long term for failure, but not specifically due to Gibbs. It was due to the strategy to get Gibbs to come back by enticing him with money to win now.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

From the OP:

Originally Posted by Darrell Green Fan

(snip)....it's pretty clear that the short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILLED this team's future.

Originally Posted by scruffylookin

This Gibbs 2 debate is a hijack and I apologize for joining in but I must say that Gibbs 2 was a failure because, if for no other reason, he did not change the culture or philosophy of the organization.

He retained Vinny, kept Danny involved and bought hook line and sinker into the philosophy of "loading up" to win now.

He failed to build a lasting organizational model that would serve this franchise after his departure. The fact that Vinny and Danny were large and in charge in January of 08 is direct result of Gibbs not changing a thing. So overall he was a failure.

But in retrospect it's not a surprise since he and Casserly were failures too between 1990 and 1992. Their drafts were awful and all they did is add stopgap free agents via plan B to support the aging Beathard built roster. The team crumbled in 1993 not simply because one man left, but because there were no adequate young replacement on the salary bloated roster.

What Gibbs 2 showed is that he still could lead men. That was, is and likely will always be his eternal strength.

He was no longer the innovator he was in the 80s and he never had the personnel chops.

The result was a sub .500 record but a couple of nice runs to sneak into the playoffs.

So he did better than Norv Turner, Steve Spurrier and Jim Zorn. Really? This is what passes for success now?

You both realise that Gibbs came back to make us winners again and restore the pride that had long gone out of this franchise? THAT was his remit. NOT to build for the future. He was titled as a mark of respect and in name only. Joe's a football coach, plain and simple. Not a GM. If you seriously expected Coach to upset the apple cart of the owner and his racquetball buddy then with respect your being naive in the extreme.

And his second go-around was no better than Norv, Spurrier and Zorn Scruff? Really? REALLY? In the 11 years between stints, we had a 10 win season ONCE, with ONE post-season appearance culminating in ONE play-off win. Given Coach equalled that 10 win season, and play-off win, and went to the dance twice in his 4 year second term, whilst leaving a far better team and organization than one he inherited; I'd say he ticked all the boxes asked of him and more his second go-around. From the previous decade and more, he was the furthest thing from a failure imaginable.

My first ever post on these here boards was just after Coach hung it up, and it seems to fit to revisit those sentiments again on his second go-around:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?232680-A-sad-but-happy-day-as-he-ll-always-be-one-of-our-own.

After years of reading on here, but never posting, it's taken the sad stepping down of a great man once again to break me in, so to speak..... I just hope I've done Coach Joe justice in my fealings, shrugs.

So here we are again, having to say goodbye, just as sad as the first time, if not harder after all we've just been through.....

January 7th, 2004..... the Washington Redskins are in a real mess, to put it simply, a complete laughing stock in football, having an owner who "wanted it NOW", and spent big bucks on big names chasing it, a succession of disastrous coaching moves, culminating in two years of Steve Spurrier that turned a once proud franchise into a laugh a day comedy show, (still shuddering at his name), and fan base left without hope..... and then the news of a certain Joseph Jackson Gibbs returning to his life love, outside of his family, and unrequited joy and hope once again. A 3 time Super Bowl winning Hall of Fame Coach was back were he belonged..... Coach Joe was back in town, and everything would be good all over again in DC.....

Thank you Coach, for being a true Redskin and caring so much about the burgundy and gold to come back, at the age of 63, and steady this ship, to teach an owner who's basically a good guy humility and patience, for sacrificing so much on a second go-around you didn't have to take, with your 19/20 hour days for the cause, such is the only way you know how to work, to go after it with all you have and working harder than any other coach in the business could humanly do, for leaving the Washington Redskins in great shape going forward, with a great group of players, young and old, of all the right character for this ball club that you so stand for, and one of the most respected coaching staffs in football, (from which hopefully the new Coach will come from, continuity and all), thank you for doing what you set out to; yes, there was no 4th Super Bowl, but the Redskins are respected and contenders again, (two playoff appearances in three years, as opposed to one in the eleven years you were gone), and thank you for making me even prouder of you, (if that's possible), and everyone under you, for the way you held everything, and everyone, together through such horrendous circumstance this year. Outside of Coach Dungy and his faith system in Indi, I can't think of any other NFL Coach working today who could of gotten' a playoff team out of such depths.

And more personally, way beyond football, thank you so much for adding a little class and joy to my life on all a man should be, to be accountable and humble, dignified and respectful, to show faith does have a place in life and sports, and not be ashamed to show it; faith, family and career, in that order, without the first one, nothing else can truly follow. Your life has touched me in so many more ways than what you have done for my football team, and for that, I will always be grateful. You will always be one of my greatest role models and influences, the type of man I hope to remembered for. Words can't express the appreciation, admiration and respect I hold you in. Your a true living embodiment of everything that is good about sports and being a human being. Some day I hope to just shake your hand and tell you this.

God bless you Coach Joe and your family, good health to you and yours, enjoy your retirement to it's fullest, you deserve it. You'll always be "Coach" to us. Thank you, for 16 glorious years, just, ..... thank you for everything.

Each to their own prerogative, but it sadden's me the way people dismiss just what did happen during Gibbs II. Often from people who should know a lot better. He's certainly not beyond criticism, and Gibbs would be the last one to say he was. But the lack of respect is very disappointing.

I'll leave it at that.

Hail.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I mean, really go back and look at the 2007 team sans Rabach and Campbell. That was a very solid foundation.

So the likes of Antwaan Randle El, Todd Wade, Jason Fabini, Pete Kendall, Cornelius Griffin, Anthony Montgomery, Marcus Washington, Shawn Springs, and Fred Smoot formed a solid foundation? Most of those guys were out of the league after 2008 and we didn't have much of anyone behind them. The only younger players we had when Gibbs retired who had any potential even in limited roles were Landry, Alexander, Golston, Doughty, and Heyer... and that's just about it.

[bedlamVR]

I am sorry i totally disagree with the question in the OP "The short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILLED this team's future"

First I am not sure how that is not to be taken as a bashing one of the best HC we ever had and kicking sand in the face of his memory with the team .

The question is what were people expecting - A dynasty for the future ?

Its not 1977 anymore - you cannot build a Dynasty anymore over several drafts as so many posters want to see,You cannot build a team that way in 2004 with an essentially talentless roster (does anyone remember what Spurrier left ? ) not in 4 years - BUT what you can do is build a team with great leadership that could compete right away - I have never seen a coach get a team prepared to win from November on, on a consistent basis .

Gibbs may have traded draft picks like they were paper - but I think this season illustrates draft picks are what you want them to be and the number of draft picks can go up and down - He wanted a veteran QB so he tradeded for one (also remember the Dolphins, gave up a 2nd round pick for an Eagles back up and how much did the seahawks give for whitehurst again ? ) - you want a promising up and coming RB you trade for one etc etc - I disagreed with the draft mentality, when we did draft .. (drafting for need primarily - we lost Bailey we picked a CB we lost LaVar we picked up Rocky Mac etc... & and talent and athleticism seemed to trump character) but that was a poor FO not standing up to the coaches .

Speaking of coaches all those clamoring for Gregg Williams to be our head coach did you miss what he did to the Bills, did I miss the fact he got dumped by the Jags and Al Saunders has been to the Rams, Ravens and now with the Raiders since the Skins made the mistake of letting them go . Williams is a fantastic coach - just missing those people skills that make you a bearable person . If you want to picture what the Redskins would have looked like with Williams as a HC and Saunders as OC - I would suggest you look what happened when Gibbs took a step back and let these guys go at it in 2006 . Curly R (http://curlyr.blogspot.com/2008/04/chronology-of-new-redskins-head-coach.html) gives a fantastic break down of what happened in 2008 following Gibbs announcement . Gibbs hand picked Gregg Williams to be his DC when no one wanted him and yet after working with him for 4 years never endorsed him - not even privately . (I do have to wonder what we could have seen in 2008-10 had Fassell actually taken over and Zorn held in touch as OC and REX RYAN been the DC of the future)

To finally answer the question in the OP - if the question was something "did the moves hurt the future of the team in terms of building a young strong squad that could potentially compete if all the players developed - then probably - but not single handedly .

If the question was " did the short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILL this team's future" Then I say no and **** no . The short sighted moves Gibbs made took us to to the playoffs 2 times out of 4 something no one not called Joe Gibbs had achieved since 1991 (Norv did it once) Gibbs made us relevant again .. the only thing Gibbs could have done was to not clone himself and leave behind a 1981 version of himself .

[PleaseGoForTheWin]

I don't think you can pin it on Gibbs. He knew his window was short and he went all out to win it within that window. The REAL mistake was trying to win right away with Zorn. That's when the team should have been rebuilt, not two years later. Those two years were awful, and we wasted a lot of picks, money, and trade value then.

[Burgold]

It's funny. Gibbs II was the best period for the 'skins in the last 20 years (how sad is that) The team showed unity, didn't quit, and we were a threat in every game. Did he mortgage the future? Perhaps, a bit, but remember that the average lifespan of an NFL player is four years so who knows. This team seemed ready to rock the first year of Zorn and then it completely and utterly fell apart. Was it talent, age or leadership? I think it was the last two. If Gibbs remained or a competent coach came in then we would have continued the upswing.

Looking back, it's amazing Gibbs did as well as he did with the anchor of Vinny around his neck. Look at all the coaches that Gibbs out performed with a Vinny based team.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

If Gibbs remained or a competent coach came in then we would have continued the upswing.

The bungling two-some even managed to **** that up. He left his successor in place to be promoted from with-in. A guy the players and most all of the fans wanted. Along with the OC would of been retained for stability.

Would Williams and Saunders have worked out? Who knows, but he left what should of been a seamless transition to find out.

Hail.

[Commander PK]

I don't understand the point of threads like these. :whoknows: Why can't we just move on, and quit ****ing about what happened in the past? I don't understand why some people are hell bent on showering criticism on Joe Gibbs. The man led a Snyderatto built team to the playoffs twice. Not only is he a coach, but he is also a miracle worker in hindsight.

Joe Gibbs is and always will be a Redskins LEGEND, and all Washington fans should be grateful for what he gave to this town.

[Darrell Green Fan]

You both realise that Gibbs came back to make us winners again and restore the pride that had long gone out of this franchise? THAT was his remit. NOT to build for the future.

You do realize that the thread is very simple, it is asking if you believe Coach Gibbs left the team in great shape after he left. Why do we keep getting off track here and why is everyone so sensitive? Nobody is trying to demonize Joe Gibbs. Nobody is trying to show disrespect. We are just discussing one very simple question and some here are taking it as a personal attack on Joe Gibbs.

[WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3]

Absolutely not. Vinny and Dan had done MORE than enough damage before he Coach Gibbs got here.

Coach Gibbs is a legend, and his second tenure was one of the best stretch for this franchise in the past twenty years.