Agree with this statement? "The short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILLED this team's future"

[skinpride1]

Gibbs II biggest flaws in my opinion was the position that he was best known for and that was Q.B.

Mark Brunell and Jason Campbell

[The Tris]

This is pretty cut and dried to me.

What has been the single biggest problem with our team since the departure of Joe Gibbs?

I would say lack of depth on an aging team.

Why was this? Because from 2004-2007, we made a total of one 2nd round draft pick, one 3rd round draft pick, and one 4th round draft pick.

The decision to trade those picks falls squarely on the back of the individual who had final say of all football operations from 2004-2007.

[Enter Apotheosis]

However, when I said "foundation", I didn't mean for five, seven years from then; I meant 2008 or 2009. Springs and Rogers were pretty good, Marcus Washington was fantastic, Smoot was good as a nickel. My 2007 team includes Taylor since Gibbs had literally responsibility when it came to 2008's roster.

My problem here is that the wheels fell off midway through 2008 and it wasn't solely because of Zorn (although he was certainly terrible). The careers of Washington, Springs, Griffin, and practically the entire offensive line all hit the end of the road within a year of Gibbs' was departure. Forget five or seven years down the line... Gibbs' roster was on the precipice of complete breakdown while he was still here. Portis, Moss, Cooley, and our first round draft picks aside, practically ALL of the guys we relied on were visibly slowing down after the end of the 2005 season.

[wilbur58z]

Gibbs reinforced the misguided philosophy of the Snyder/Cerrato era

Sad but true

[seantaylor=god]

This is pretty cut and dried to me.

What has been the single biggest problem with our team since the departure of Joe Gibbs?

I would say lack of depth on an aging team.

Why was this? Because from 2004-2007, we made a total of one 2nd round draft pick, one 3rd round draft pick, and one 4th round draft pick.

The decision to trade those picks falls squarely on the back of the individual who had final say of all football operations from 2004-2007.

This is exactly how I feel. We didnt have depth because we shipped away mid round picks for older decent starters. Thats not how you set up a team for long term success.

[Going Commando]

Any franchise can recover from awful drafting and personnel management in about three years. I doubt anything Gibbs did seriously crippled this franchise as it is today. This is the NFL, not the NBA. Our cap situation is fine. We'll have 8 draft picks next year and being bad momentarily only means we're guaranteed to pick early. You don't need to be a FA draw to be successful rebuilding in the NFL. There's not a whole lot Gibbs could do to permanently scar us.

But Gibbs 2.0 was a failure by the measure of our goals going into his tenure. A large reason why we failed was because of poor personnel decisions on the part of Gibbs.

Gibbs was bad at drafting. He got poor value from most of his picks and had a pattern of reaching to fill immediate needs created by the recent vacancy of a quality homegrown starter. Not only that, Gibbs had a habit of making luxury picks at positions with low positional value. In general, I feel like he had a very poor feel for positional value in the draft. Worst of all were his trade ups in 2005 and 2006. He misjudged the draft value for Campbell and McIntosh and traded a ton of picks to move up and reach for them far above their consensus rankings.

Gibbs was reckless with draft picks and made several poor trades involving them which crippled his ability to build through the draft.

Gibbs failed to adequately build and preserve the quality of our offensive and defensive lines.

Gibbs failed to find a solution at QB.

Gibbs was far more comfortable building through FA and to his credit, he made some fantastic FA acquisitions. But there were about as many FA failures and it's not a sustainable way to build anyway.

These are basically the reasons why Gibbs 2.0 was a failure. They are common mistakes brought about by the HC as GM format we used during his tenure and we are currently using with Mike Shanahan.

In general, the HC as GM format doesn't work for rebuilding teams because HCs are usually very bad at drafting and lack the long term planning skills every good GM has. They fall in love with their guys in the draft and reach on them senseless of the value placed on them by the rest of the league. They trade draft picks and long term assets to find immediate solutions for the upcoming seasons.

[No_Pressure]

Joe Gibbs is one of the greatest head coaches. He's a fantastic motivator, he's a leader, he's a tireless workaholic, he's a perfectionist, and though his offense seemed dated I honestly think he did alright in 2005 with a lot of players who were decent but not great...our playcalling was pretty awesome at times that season and I know he was calling the plays. We actually got way worse in 2006 and 2007 which bothered me...I didn't think he lost his offensive brilliance, I thought he just took a season to regain it and I think the Saunders hire was a Vinny/Dan move that Joe went along with because he's not an egomaniac.

With all of that said, Joe Gibbs is a terrible general manager.

The idea that he and Casserly were a bit of a disaster here in 1990-1992 isn't necessarily incorrect. Think of the core Redskins from that season. Green, Monk, Rypien, Mann, Clark, Byner, Grimm, Bostic, Lachey, Jacoby, etc. were all guys who were brought in by Bobby Beathard. There are many other examples of such things around the league. A good coach takes the players he has and squeezes the maximum he can out of them. Sure he determines his players a bit- he tells the GM who he absolutely does or does not want on the roster, what type of player he wants, who is and isn't going to make the cut, etc. but they aren't the ones that should be going out and judging talent and setting team philosophy- they should work within a philosophy and voice his opinion while ultimately doing what he can with what he is given.

A great GM is really the heart of a franchise. He understands what the owner expects and wants, he determines what type of football team they're going to be- smashmouth run the football play tough defense types, pass happy air it out offensive types, etc. Usually the GM helps the owner select a talented and capable coach who falls in line with the team philosophy, and as an evaluator of talent he must be extremely smart and capable. Bobby Beathard did all of these things. He suggested Joe Gibbs. He gave Joe Gibbs the players he needed. He was the reason we won 3 superbowls.

Now in Gibbs 2, did he bring in the players? Did Vinny/Dan bring them in? Was it a balance between them? Regardless, it was not a system like with Beathard and Vinny Cerrato isn't fit to lick the ground Bobby Beathard walks on. I wouldn't blame Gibbs for the issues the 2nd time around or the situation we're in now. He was just doing what he would have been doing all along with a weaker GM than Bobby Beathard at his side. He's a coach not a GM. Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder are the reasons why we are where we are right now as a franchise. Blame them. Gibbs was just trying to work with the situation he was given.

[bedlamVR]

Why was this? Because from 2004-2007, we made a total of one 2nd round draft pick, one 3rd round draft pick, and one 4th round draft pick.

.

Throughout the 1981-1991 we had 3 1st round picks in total drafted in the 2nd round only 6 times, We even missed the 3rd round a couple of years . There was only plan B free agency back then the draft was the only way to build a team ... and yet we made the playoffs 6 times and won 3 superbowls .

The thing which interests me is those who want to claim Gibbs 2 as a failure all seem to be in their 20s and have massively unrealistic ideas of what Gibbs could have done in 4 years .

The team was stripped of depth before Gibbs by successive lousy management including Shottenhiemers culling of most of the mid level talent Steve Spurriers total missrule and swopping schemes from power run to fun and gun to power running etc .

SkinPride1 said: Gibbs II biggest flaws in my opinion was the position that he was best known for and that was Q.B.

Gibbs was not known for any particular position he was known as a motivator and installation of the "team" concept to the Skins . IF anything he was known for being able to win with any QB, Theisman (%comp 56.7, TD-INT 160-138, QB rating 77.8) was his best QB but he had been knocking around the team and the league and the CFL for a number of years before he shone in the Skins system and was 36 when he suffered his career ending injury with the Giants .

Williams had been a flop with the bucs was benched several times in 1987 yet went on to win the supper bowl .

Rypien spent most of his early career on IR had a massive arm and could connect down field with the WRs but with no real short- intermediate game .

What Gibbs did was make the players want to run through brick walls for him - Portis would have done anything for Gibbs - as did Riggins in the past . What Gibbs did not do is construct overwhelmingly talented teams that could win without him .

You know what is the sad thing I still think the fans were 'helped' making Gibbs take the decision to leave with their "Joe must go" chants in 2007 ...

---------- Post added May-23rd-2011 at 07:29 AM ----------

- paraphrased - Bobby Beathard was the reason we won 3 superbowls..

And again i disagree with this statement - Bobby B was a great GM - He and his scouting staff were excellent at discovering the small town prospects but the Skins rosters were hardly filled with NFL stars - it is no coincidence it has taken more than 15 years to get more than a single player into the HoF the truth is the Redskins were never seen as a great team made up with stars they were a great team made up of so so players playing out their skins for the best prepared HC out there .

Also remember we won the superbowls in 1983 and 1987 in shortened seasons where replacements (in 87) played a role in our sucsess . Hell anyone who can get 200+ yards from Timmy Smith in the superbowl is an exceptional coach .

Gibbs did what Gibbs did best - in his second time around - took players no one thought could win and took us back to the post season twice in 4 years - if you thought he was going to leave a legacy that would be a core of a team that could win for the next 10 years then obviously you were not paying attention in the 90s .

[NewCliche21]

My problem here is that the wheels fell off midway through 2008 and it wasn't solely because of Zorn (although he was certainly terrible). The careers of Washington, Springs, Griffin, and practically the entire offensive line all hit the end of the road within a year of Gibbs' was departure. Forget five or seven years down the line... Gibbs' roster was on the precipice of complete breakdown while he was still here. Portis, Moss, Cooley, and our first round draft picks aside, practically ALL of the guys we relied on were visibly slowing down after the end of the 2005 season.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this because, again, I meant that we had a foundation for a run, which we did until the disaster that was the 2008 draft that set us back way more than anything that Gibbs did. However, Gibbs was here for four years. The last offensive lineman drafted was who? Jansen in '99 (I'm going off of just memory because I'm getting ready for work and typing this at the same time)? I think that we have to look at the end of 2003 with its roster, draft picks for the upcoming year, momentum of the team, culture of the team, and salary cap for the following year and then look at the same criteria for 2007 (still keeping Taylor on that team for obvious reasons).

Is that 2007 team one that you would want over that 2003 team? If so, then he left us in better shape. If not, then he didn't.

I think it's really that simple.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Just for the sake of reference, we can compare the roster Gibbs inherited to the roster he left behind. I think we can take this as some evidence of how good Gibbs' rebuild was.

Look at the roster Gibbs inherited in 2003, compared to the roster he left in 2007:

QB: Patrick Ramsey vs. Jason Campbell (improved)

RB: Trung Candidate vs. Clinton Portis (drastically improved)

WR: Laveranues Coles vs. Santana Moss (improved)

TE: Zeron Flemister vs. Chris Cooley (drastically improved)

OL: Samuels, Dockery, Moore, Thomas, Jansen vs. Samuels, Dockery, Rabach, Fabini, Heyer (OK, this got worse)

S: Ohalete, Bowen vs. Landry, Doughty (improved)

CB: Bailey, Smoot vs. Springs, Rogers (stayed about the same)

LB: Arrington, Trotter, Armstead vs. Washington, Fletcher, McIntosh (improved)

DL: Smith, Holsley, Dalton, Wynn vs. Daniels, Griffin, Montgomery, Carter (improved)

Summary: Gibbs improved the team he inherited in every area except along the offensive front.

Still think Gibbs II did not do a good job rebuilding this team?

You have both Portis and Champ on the same team and that obviously is not possible. With that said I totally agree that he had a better team than the one he inherited, but then again the Carolina Panthers today are a better team than he inherited. That '03 team was terrible. But once again we are off topic. Again my only discussion has to do with how good of shape the team was when he left. And again I see an aging team with no depth and very little young talent ready to plug in, and yes these facts KILLED the team going forward.

On top of that a poster claimed Gibbs left them in great shape cap wise. I'd like to see the numbers on that because I don't recall the team ever being in great cap shape over the past decade. When you consider the bloated contracts to a few players such as Samuels, ARE etc I have to question this too.

[bedlamVR]

I'm not disagreeing with any of this because, again, I meant that we had a foundation for a run, which we did until the disaster that was the 2008 draft that set us back way more than anything that Gibbs did. However, Gibbs was here for four years. The last offensive lineman drafted was who? Jansen in '99 (I'm going off of just memory because I'm getting ready for work and typing this at the same time)? I think that we have to look at the end of 2003 with its roster, draft picks for the upcoming year, momentum of the team, culture of the team, and salary cap for the following year and then look at the same criteria for 2007 (still keeping Taylor on that team for obvious reasons).

Is that 2007 team one that you would want over that 2003 team? If so, then he left us in better shape. If not, then he didn't.

I think it's really that simple.

Okay - do agree with your overall point . I think the roster in 2007>>>>>2003 roster . But you kind of missed a couple of players in the - who was the last line man drafted -

Since Jon Jansen in 99 we drafted, Derrick G Smith (G) 1999, Chris Samuels -2000, Mookie Moore (G) -2000, Reggie Coleman (T) -2001, Derrick Dockerty(G) -2003 ,Mark Wilson (T)-2004, Jim Molianro (T)-2004, Kili LeFotu (G) 2006 and we found an interesting OL in Lorenzo "scar face" Alexander under Gibbs watch who had bounced around a bit before catching on here .

We onluy got a couple of starters out of that group but we did draft linemen . (8 in a 7 year window)

Gibbs had a habbit though of filling the depth out with vertrans like Todd Wade and Fabbini which meant young development depth was often overlooked . - We lost a few good options on the PS in 2008 - becasue someone wnated to keep the majority of his draft picks on the team -

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

'K, now, let me preface this by saying I aren't for one minute saying this is a stellar group. But if your taking it strictly on the numbers, when Coach hung it up for the second time on January 8, 2008; he left a roster with 17 players aged 26 or under (10 of whom are still here), and what would of been 18 if #21 hadn't been tragically taken from us; with a further 12 aged 27/28. 29 players out of 53 aged 28 or younger, 6 players shy of two thirds of the roster.

Again, I aren't suggesting they were top quality players in the main, but going strictly on age, it's a tad misleading to say we were such an ageing roster.

Players aged 26 or under. (Age in brackets/ players still here in yellow) :- Alexander (24); Blades (23); Boschetti (26); Campbell, J. (26); Cooley (25); Doughty (25); Golsten (24); Heyer (23); Landry (23); Lloyd (26); McIntosh (25); Montgomery (23); Portis (26); Rogers (26); Suisham (26); Torrence (25) and Wilson. (25.), You could also throw in the likes if Broughton (25), Mix (24) and Sinclair (25) if you wanted to be literal.

Derrick Frost was 27 at the time of Coach' departure.

Players aged 28 :- Betts, Caldwell, Campbell, K., Carter- Still here up until March of this year. Cartwright, Evans, Fox, Moss, Pucillo, Randle El and Smoot.

Throw in he left Zorn with 9 draft picks (1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7); and the future wasn't left too bad from a guy who's main remit was to win now and restore pride and respect in the franchise in a short 5 year window from the complete joke of the previous decade and more. 17 players under the age of 26, with 9 draft picks to go at. I'd be happy walking into that scenario to start my future re-build after being handed a team that had great momentum from the end of season playoff run the previous year.

Hail.

[KDawg]

29 players out of 53 aged 28 or younger, 6 players shy of two thirds of the roster.

You're playing with numbers here, brother. It could go the other way as well... 3 players short of half the roster being over 30 years old.

That's not leaving the team in good shape. But again, that was never the point of Gibbs' second tenure. it should have been. But that wasn't Snyder's plan.

Players aged 26 or under. (Age in brackets/ players still here in yellow) :- Alexander (24); Blades (23); Boschetti (26); Campbell, J. (26); Cooley (25); Doughty (25); Golsten (24); Heyer (23); Landry (23); Lloyd (26); McIntosh (25); Montgomery (23); Portis (26); Rogers (26); Suisham (26); Torrence (25) and Wilson. (25.), You could also throw in the likes if Broughton (25), Mix (24) and Sinclair (25) if you wanted to be literal.

GHH, bro... Of that list there are five guys who are even remotely starting quality: Landry, McIntosh, Cooley, Rogers, Portis.

That list isn't strengtening your argument. It's hurting it. Both by age and by skill. I know you said you aren't suggesting these were quality players, but they weren't even close to being quality.

Derrick Frost was 27 at the time of Coach' departure.

A young punter who can't punt.

Players aged 28 :- Betts, Caldwell, Campbell, K., Carter- Still here up until March of this year. Cartwright, Evans, Fox, Moss, Pucillo, Randle El and Smoot.

Of this list only Moss and Carter were good players. Cartwright was a great teamer, so I'll include him. Betts was a decent backup. The rest weren't worth much of anything.

Throw in he left Zorn with 9 draft picks (1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7); and the future wasn't left too bad from a guy who's main remit was to win now and restore pride and respect in the franchise in a short 5 year window from the complete joke of the previous decade and more. 17 players under the age of 26, with 9 draft picks to go at. I'd be happy walking into that scenario to start my future re-build after being handed a team that had great momentum from the end of season playoff run the previous year.

Unfortunately, the majority of the roster would have needed to have been turned over, considering the quality of the players under the age of 26. Skill matters and most of those guys were lacking it.

But again, that was never Gibbs' job. Gibbs was brought in to win now as the short term plan and Snyder lacked a long term plan.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Hey KD man. I never said that the roster was in great shape, or that the listed players were who I'd ideally of kept.

And I certainly did play around with the numbers there. But no more so than many trying to slight Gibbs II. Present company excepted. .

Hail.

*Edit* That said, if I walk into that scenario, and keep say Alexander, Blades, Cooley, Doughty, Golston, Heyer, Landry, McIntosh, Portis, Rogers and Wilson from the 26 or under group; and Betts, Carter, Cartwright and maybe El and Smoot from the 28 year old group, allied to the 9 draft picks; I like my start at having 25 players under 28 going into camp in year one.

[chipwhich]

Hey KD man. I never said they the roster was in great shape, or that the listed players were who I'd ideally of kept.

And I certainly did play around with the numbers there. But no more so than many trying to slight Gibbs II. Present company excepted. .

Hail.

Well you said you would be happy walking into that scenario.

The majority of the players you named, and didn't you could get for a nickel off the free agency scrap heap every offseason.

I wouldn't have been happy walking into that scenario. He left us with garbage.

[KDawg]

He left us with garbage.

I disagree with the above.

I mean, I guess if you wanted to take it literally, it's hard to disagree with... But his job was never to leave us with a solid foundation. All the moves we made his entire tenure indicated that he was supposed to win now. That was his job. There was no long term plan, and again, I think that falls on Snyder's shoulders.

[chipwhich]

I disagree with the above.

I mean, I guess if you wanted to take it literally, it's hard to disagree with... But his job was never to leave us with a solid foundation. All the moves we made his entire tenure indicated that he was supposed to win now. That was his job. There was no long term plan, and again, I think that falls on Snyder's shoulders.

Well I blame it on all of them. The three headed monster.

Gibbs II biggest flaw was allowing himself to get caught up in buying players to win now. You can win now without making some of the ridiculous moves they made. Gibbs should have been a smarter leader to stop some of those moves.

[KDawg]

Well I blame it on all of them. The three headed monster.

Gibbs II biggest flaw was allowing himself to get caught up in buying players to win now. You can win now without making some of the ridiculous moves they made. Gibbs should have been a smarter leader to stop some of those moves.

chip,

My theory (and it's just a theory) is that he was brought back with the temptation of having an open check book to do what he pleased with the roster.

That's Snyder in a nutshell, so I don't think my theory is too hard to accept.

If so, that falls on Snyder. If Gibbs wouldn't have come back if it meant participating in a rebuild, Snyder should have bit the bullet and picked a different head coach in order to build this team in the right direction. Instead, Snyder opted for the big splash and marketing ploy (which from a business standpoint is sound and from a football standpoint is horrendous).

I think it's hard to put the blame on Gibbs. When you're an older coach, looking to relive your glory days without an interest in rebuilding and you're told you have an open checkbook, you'd do exactly as Gibbs' would... Or exactly as Snyder told Gibbs he could do.

Snyder (and to some extent Cerrato) lacked a long term plan. They had tunnel vision.

[chipwhich]

chip,

My theory (and it's just a theory) is that he was brought back with the temptation of having an open check book to do what he pleased with the roster.

That's Snyder in a nutshell, so I don't think my theory is too hard to accept.

I probably agree with the theory. I just don't understand some of the moves that were so shortsighted. I mean the TJ Duckett trade, for me, might be the dumbest trade the Redskins ever made. Not that he was the worst player we ever picked up, but we didn't need him. That trade alone symbolizes the failure of this team.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Well you said you would be happy walking into that scenario.

The majority of the players you named, and didn't you could get for a nickel off the free agency scrap heap every offseason.

I wouldn't have been happy walking into that scenario. He left us with garbage.

Alexander, Blades, Cooley, Doughty, Golsten, Heyer, Landry, McIntosh, Portis, Rogers, Wilson + 9 draft picks. Potentially 20 players 26 or under left who would of served well if only for depth purposes for a few years through a re-build as I added and switched around other pieces.

To me, that's a pretty decent start if I'm building for the long haul over a period. That's without the others I mentioned in my edit. The scope was there for a decent start in a youth movement, which we're now seeing from this regime.

Hail.

[Mursilis]

I don't know how anyone can argue Gibbs II was really a success - when it comes right down to it, he lost more than he won, and isn't a coach's job to win games? Sure, he had two playoff runs (which resulted in a 1-2 record), but in between, he had his two worst seasons ever - 6-10 and 5-11. And that 5-11 season was in Year 3, when all the Spurrier problems were supposedly cleared out. The records, and the inconsistency, say it all about Gibbs II - ultimately, it was a disappointment.

[hail2skins]

You both realise that Gibbs came back to make us winners again and restore the pride that had long gone out of this franchise? THAT was his remit. NOT to build for the future. He was titled as a mark of respect and in name only. Joe's a football coach, plain and simple. Not a GM. If you seriously expected Coach to upset the apple cart of the owner and his racquetball buddy then with respect your being naive in the extreme.

I dunno. Marty had no problem getting rid of racquetball boy. And Snyder probably had the structure of a deal with Shanny sometime during the 2009 season, and its hard to imagine Shanny agreeing to the structure that included Vinny being part of the equation. Gibbs had bigger gravitas with this organization than either of them. Why couldn't Joe have "upset the apple cart?" Either he felt that Cerrato was doing a decent job, or he felt that he could work around him, or that he couldn't find another personnel guy to work with.

I don't want to ascribe too much blame to Gibbs, but the end result was that Vinny was still here when Joe retired again, which led to the blown 2008 draft and the embarrassment that we still have in Albert Haynesworth. And if you say that Joe was just brought here to win now and not build for the future......well, despite having the two winning seasons, it seemed like we did a half-assed job of both during Gibbs 2.0. Whether you want to call it a success or failure, I consider just another ORGANIZATIONAL failure that has been the hallmark of Snyder's ownership.

And would I want a 71-year-old Gibbs to come back as coach, even with the front office structure we now have in place? With all due respect......absolutely not. Its time this organization developed somewhat of a long-range plan, and bringing Joe back would lead us back toward the win-now and short-sighted mentality we have endured.

[Skinsinparadise]

Gibbs reinforced the misguided philosophy of the Snyder/Cerrato era

Sad but true

One thing that I noticed was that Gibbs was effusive in his praise for Cerrato during his tenure, I recall him talking up his organization skills among other things -- Cerrato was promoted when Gibbs left and its hard for me to believe that Gibbs didn't pump Vinny up for the job or at least put in a good word - considering it seemed that Danny worshiped Gibbs and his opinion about things.

I worshiped Gibbs 1 as for Gibbs 2, I respected him as a leader and legend but as a coach he IMO was so so, record below 500, 2 awful seasons, and 2 seasons where they snuck into the playoffs and got eliminated quickly -- his offense seemed to be outdated but what disappointed me even more was how poor IMO he was at clock management, timeouts, etc. Gibbs 1 -- seemed to be always ahead of the curve, amazing 2nd half adjustments, and the preparation was legendary -- the Gibbs 2 version IMO seemed to be clumsy on game day, the opponents seemed to be more often doing the 2nd half adjustments and coming back against us.

As for him as a personnel guy, mixed bag in terms of building the team for short term -- some great FA signings like Springs, Washington, R. Thomas, L Fletcher, C. Griffin, etc and some busts like Archuleta -- where IMO he failed the team long term as has been stated here were trading draft picks and trading LOTS of draft picks. I am not going to regurgitate all of them but to me two of them stand out to Gibbs/Cerrato mindset which IMO hurts us to this day.

1. TJ Duckett -- dealing a 3rd and 4th round pick all because Portis gets dinged up in the pre season with us still having Betts and Cartright on the roster. Talk about an impulsive/and i don't take the draft that seriously type of deal. Portis ends up healthy enough, so you basically give all this up for a third string running back? Crazy IMO. It's the type of deal that not even teams on the verge of a Superbowl ala the Patriots make.

2. Mark Brunnel -- for a third rounder. Mark was a veteran backup at Jak, some say washed up, many said was poised to be released. Gibbs liked him and he seemed to get anxious. I recall reading that he didn't want to lose him to another team in a bidding process if he was released, so he offers a 3rd round pick. The market for veteran 30 something past the prime Qb's isn't that good -- teams give up maybe 6th rounders -- that's what we got for example for Ramsey. but we give up a third? As another poster pointed out, we gave up 2-4th rounders like candy.

I recall seeing an article that we had less draft picks than any team in the league by far during the Gibbs 2 era, and heck yeah that will burn you long term. And I don't mean it with any animosity. Gibbs is a legend. And I believe him when he says he's the biggest Redskins fan on the planet. his intentions were great but he never was a personnel guy even in his hey day. Heck i even recall reading the WP the day after they traded up to draft Desmond Howard -- his quote was something to the effect is he studied him and he's a guy without any holes.

Gibbs 2 overall was a mixed bag IMO. Worse if you are what your record is, then it was below mediocre. He made some good FA signings. Pretty much every trade ranged from questionable to awful. As for how we handled our own guys -- questionable at times too like letting go A. Pierce to a division rival, signing Archuleta and letting R Clark go. As for the long term implications for trading a ton of our 2nd-4th round picks -- that carried on some after he left -- borderline disaster. The 4th rounder dealt to Denver ended up being Brandon Marshall. The 5th rounder dealt for J Thrash ended up being Trent Cole. IMO you can't let our division rivals like the Eagles and Giants matching us by likewise keeping their first rounders but then one upping us like crazy after that by for example using their 2nd rounders to add guys like Macklin and Steve Smith, Osi, etc year after year -- with us hoping to keep pace without bringing on youth like that, it just doesn't add up.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Whatever he thought of Vinny personally, I'd of not expected him to "upset the apple cart" there because that's just not Coach' nature, Even less so when he was at that stage of life with a planned 5 year year time frame to revive an ailing franchise quickly. You'd have to ask him, but I think for want of a better word he tolerated the Snyder/Cerrato sideshow and worked with it purely for the chance to have another shot at one of his life's great loves and turning around that long wayward ship.

Oh, I wouldn't him back now either h2s man. Besides anything else, he deserves to not have the stress at his stage of life. It was more a hypothetical to the current structure as to what he came back into and the criticism there in on the personnel moves.

Hail.

[grantarchy]

I was really surprised at how the Gibbs 2 years went down. When he came back, I really thought that he was as sick of the insanity around Redskins nation as everyone else. I thought that personally, if not publicly, that his mission would be to bring stability to the franchise again, including (and especially) reigning in the FO craziness. I think I overestimated what Joe thought needed to happen. The moves which were made under his watch really did hurt the franchise in a big way for the long term, in my opinion. I'll always love Joe, but it wasn't worth bringing him back given what we know now.