Agree with this statement? "The short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILLED this team's future"

[illone]

Gibbs the coach was a winner, but Gibbs the GM was a bigtime failure.

[The Tris]

Gibbs the coach was a winner, but Gibbs the GM was a bigtime failure.

So do you think you can be considered a success when you fail at 50% of your job?

[Darrell Green Fan]

Without a doubt the double timeout in the Sean Taylor game was the biggest shot to the gut since Jack Squireck for me. It was very painful to see the coach who made us who we are make a mistake like that in such an emotional game. But that in no way took away from the job he did as coach for 2 of the 4 years he was back. It was great to be relevent again and even though his offense no longer worked he did still have the ability to get the most out of his players.

However Coach Gibbs the GM was another story. I don't believe for a minute that he didn't have the final say. And as I said the win now approach would be expected from a coach whose entire DNA consists of nothing else matters except the next game. But in my opinion his repreated short sighted moves and God awful trades of picks for non-productive players had long lasting effects long after Coach retired.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Wow, you have incredibly low standards for "win now".

If we are going to mortgage the future, as willingly and as openly as Gibbs did, he better accomplish more than a 1-2 record in the playoffs. He failed to "win now", and he failed to "build for the future".

So what did he succeed with? Restoring Pride and Professionalism? Sure didn't take long for that abstract concept to fly out the window as soon as he retired. Guess he wasn't as successful in establishing that culture as well.

Was he better than Spurrier? Hell yes, Joe Gibbs was a massive improvement over Spurrier. But as long as we measure our success relative to our most incompetent season, this team will suffer. Expect more. We should expect our team to play, operate, and build as the best team in the NFL, not simply be better than the Redskin team before it. This organization needs to raise its expectations.

If we are going to "win now", then we better freaking win. We did not. Gibbs failed.

In the 11 season's between his first go-around and Gibbs II, we had a grand total of ONE double digit win season, and ONE post-season trip. In the four years after his return, he equalled the 10 win season, and doubled the post-season appearances. This after taking over a sham of a team that hadn't had a winning season in the previous 4 years, and only 3 in the 11 years he'd been away. In Redskins terms, he "won now" in big flashing letters. It may not of ultimately lead to the 4th Lombardi both he and we so crave, which sure as heck wasn't for the lack of hard work and dedication on his part; but to infer it wasn't a successful period fulfilling a big part of what was asked after the decade of utter **** that went before is being REAL disingenuous to the man to be kind.

And the complete culture change he brought around on the playing side would of been continued if we'd promoted from with-in and followed the succession he put in place in Gregg W rather than getting a weak minded yes man like Zorn who couldn't discipline a bunch of first graders without first apologizing for being too harsh on them.

Your laying the bigger failings over way too many years of the organization as a whole on the shoulders of one man who you appear to have utterly unrealistic expectations of in terms of just what he should of achieved with so little in such a short period. All after walking back into the biggest laughing stock in the NFL.

Bar none.

Hail.

[The Tris]

In the 11 season's between his first go-around and Gibbs II, we had a grand total of ONE double digit win season, and on post-season trip. In the four years after his return, he equalled the 10 win season, and doubled the post-season appearances. This after taking over a sham of a team that hadn't had a winning season in the previous 4 years, and only 3 in the 11 years he'd been away. In Redskins terms, he "won now" in big flashing letters. It may not of ultimately lead to the 4th Lombardi both he and we so crave, which sure as heck wasn't for the lack of hard work and dedication on his part; but to infer it wasn't a successful period fulfilling a big part of what was asked after the decade of utter **** that went before is being REAL disingenuous to the man to be kind.

This speaks to two things:

1) The continued insistance of fans to measure success relative to our failures.

2) That Gibbs was not the man we needed (or need now) to fix what ails this team.

Your laying the bigger failings over way too many years of the organization as a whole on the shoulders of one man who you appear to have utterly unrealistic expectations of in terms of just what he should of achieved with so little in such a short period. All after walking back into the biggest laughing stock in the NFL.

The Lions under Millen were a FAR greater laughing stock, and were managed far worse that the Redskins during the same time period. They were much worse off than we were.

Bar none.

Yet it's funny what happens when a team commits to a rebuild after bottoming out. I personally think that our lavish use of FA under Snyder has prevented a true bottoming out, and deluded fans and front office alike into thinking such a drastic rebuild is not required.

Until we stop deluding ourselves, be it under Gibbs or Shanahan or whoever comes next, I expect more of the same.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Oh, we were the equal of ANY organization you care to mention, Detroit, Clevelan, Oakland et all.

Through that 11 year period, Detroit had 5 winning seasons, two double digit win seasons, and went to the playoffs on 5 occasions.

As painful as it is to recall, NOBODY was more of a laughing stock Nationwide thn the Washington Redskins between Gibbs 1 and 2.

Hail.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

im jaded on the gibbs II tenure. on one hand we had 2 playoff appearances which were fun, and we had some solid seasons especially 2005 where i think we were a legit playoff team. 07 was more a nice run at the end but we werent really a playoff caliber team. however, a lot of gibbs moves did set this franchise back a long way. too many trading picks and terrible free agent signings. the only move he made that was good in theory was trying to develop jason campbell which had it worked would have given us our franchise QB. aside from that it was way too many empty drafts, terrible free agent pickups, and squandering of picks to move up in drafts.

[The Tris]

As painful as it is to recall, NOBODY was more of a laughing stock Nationwide thn the Washington Redskins between Gibbs 1 and 2.

Hail.

And no one was more a laughing stock than Detroit in 2008.

Yet they took steps that we have never considered taking.

Since 2003, we have had 7 seasons to change the direction of our team, and in the interim, have done little to improve it. We are still a middling team with an aging roster and thread bare depth.

In three season, the Lions have gone from laughing stock to a dark horse wild card contender with a young and talented roster that is only getting better.

So what is our excuse for the past seven seasons?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Oh contrare Tris man, we stand comparison with ANY crap through that time. Be it the Lions, Raiders, Browns whomever, we were RIGHT up there.

In the 11 years between Gibbs 1 and 2, Detroit had 5 winning season's, two of which were double digits, and went to the playoff's 5 times. As painful as it is to recall, the Washington Redskins were the biggest laughing stock in the entire league. We flat out stank. On and off the field.

And it wouldn't of mattered who you hired as HC, his remit at the time would of been the same from an owner still in his fantasy football guise. What we "needed", and what we "wanted" were two completely different things. Again, your laying your own expectations and unrealistic aims at the door of one man that was brought in to achieve completely different aims from his employees. Don't blame the Coach for the failings of the organization as a whole.

Hail.

*Edit* Shoot, repeat post after a crash I never thought had taken. My bad.

[illone]

So do you think you can be considered a success when you fail at 50% of your job?

Too vague of a question because Gibbs held multiple roles when he was with the organization the 2nd time around. I don't regret him coming back, I mean every Redskins fan immediately had that pride again when he came back, so at least we had that for a short period.

He just bit off more than he could handle accepting the front office job. He should have forced Danny to lure Polian or some other football personel genius.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

So what is our excuse for the past seven seasons?

See Daniel M. Snyder, up until late 2009 when he finally got it and started the ball rolling with the Allen hire.

Hail.

[KDawg]

See Daniel M. Snyder, up until late 2009 when he finally got it and started the ball rolling with the Allen hire.

Hail.

Again, like I've suggested several times in this thread... Snyder put the plan in place to win now when he hired Gibbs. He had no long term plan. It falls on him.

[The Tris]

So if Shanahan fails, it's not his fault either?

I blame any coach who accepts this job under fantasy football standards the owner lays out. Gibbs could have said "I want to rebuild this team the right way" but he didn't want to do that. Gibbs hand picked Brunnel, he decided to trade for Portis, he signed off on the disasterous 2006 offseason - that was his fault. He thought he could cobble some veterans together and produce a Super Bowl winner - he'd done it before.

Ironically, we have a coach now who has taken total control, who is responsible for every success and failure of the organization as a whole, and who has said, word for word that he wants to build this team the right way - and we are still seeing short sighted moves.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Tris, Gibbs was sixty freaking three.

He should of been sat with his feet up playing with his grandkids, not stepping back into the high pressure World of the NFL at that age of life; putting in his legendary 20 hour days. But he did, because he he's a Redskin. He loves this organization more than most anything outside his own faith and family, And he willingly sacrificed a lot through that love to steady a long wayward ship.

Seriously, if your 63, and have an owner with an open cheque book that makes it clear money's no object on anyone and he wants big names to turn this around quick in the 5 years you've been given that will take you to pushing 70, your gona' say "sorry Dan. But I want to build this the right way that you should of done years back for the long haul. Heck, I'll be coaching on a walker when it all comes to fruition, but hey, it's the right thing to do." SERIOUSLY?

The Shanahan argument isn't an argument as his remit is completely different.

Hail.

[The Tris]

Then we both agree that Gibbs at his age was not the man to fix the Redskins.

I wish he had realized that and told Dan as much. But that certainly wasn't his style.

I don't begrudge Gibbs for his second stint, but to say he succeeded, and to deny the long term consequences of his tenure, is wrong.

Anyone who says otherwise is blinded by their admiration of the man's first great tenure, which should be viewed as entirely seperate in this discussion.

[21cents]

We been to the playoffs twice in 10 years. Both times we were coached by gibbs. Enuff said....

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Oh fiddlesticks Tris,

Gibbs 1 isn't at issue here, or under consideration. What is, is what he's wrongly being accused of, when it should be the owner that's being criticised. Save for winning the Lombardi, in the main he did exactly what was asked of him when he took the position. He had more success in 4 years than had happened in the complete joke of the previous 11. By that standard, the only standard as to his remit for being hired, he MORE than won now.

Was it wholey successful in the bigger picture? Not at all. But for that period, he did what he was asked. If you think he should of done more, you need to turn your anger to the owners direction.

Hail.

[Mahons21]

We been to the playoffs twice in 10 years. Both times we were coached by gibbs. Enuff said....

How does that help us now? This thread is about the impact Gibbs' tenure has on us now. Some believe it had none, I disagree. I don't see how you could say the 7+ draft picks he traded away wouldn't still be with the team, and if you think they would still be with the team you'd have to logically expect that one/two more starters on our team that doesn't even have NFL starting talent for every position, we'd be in better shape.

Gibbs only took the job because he got total control, so are we now blaming snyder for giving gibbs total control? Rather than just blaming the man who had total control?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Double post. My bad.

Continue on.

Hail.

[MumboSauce]

Gibbs 1, nothing more need be said we all know. Legend.

Gibbs 2, a little lost, a bit antiquated, too conservative, game management probs, no real adjustments and questionable FA acquisitions/draft pick throw aways.

I still respect the man, he did at least bring some respectability back and somewhat leveled out a plane that was in a nose dive. Two play offs in 4 years despite how they got in, they got in...along with how he handled a tragedy (Sean Taylor) I can't say he ruined the Redskins for years to come, there was good and bad.

[KDawg]

So if Shanahan fails, it's not his fault either?

I'm not sure where I said Gibbs not winning wasn't a failure.

In fact, go back and read my posts. I said specifically in one of them that even Coach Gibbs has to know that when you're trying to win now, finishing 6-10 and 5-11 in two seasons is unacceptable. He did, however, give us our best two seasons since the last time he was head coach 20 years ago.

That doesn't make him successful or a failure. The truth lies somewhere in between.

But the plan was never to rebuild with Gibbs. It was to win now. In terms of having left this team off poorly, his job was never to lay the foundation. He was brought here for the short term, not the long term. He can't be held accountable for the front offices lack of a vision. They brought him in with win now in mind and not much else.

I blame any coach who accepts this job under fantasy football standards the owner lays out. Gibbs could have said "I want to rebuild this team the right way" but he didn't want to do that.

And nor should he want to do that. He was offered the open check book and he took it. We disagree here. When you're his age and you're told you're being brought in to win now, that's what's going to happen.

Gibbs hand picked Brunnel, he decided to trade for Portis, he signed off on the disasterous 2006 offseason - that was his fault. He thought he could cobble some veterans together and produce a Super Bowl winner - he'd done it before.

Again, I agreed that two losing seasons were unacceptable on a win now team.

But I also did mention that he got us two of our best three seasons since the last time he was coach. It matters.

---------- Post added May-23rd-2011 at 01:03 PM ----------

Gibbs only took the job because he got total control, so are we now blaming snyder for giving gibbs total control? Rather than just blaming the man who had total control?

Absolutely!

Snyder should have never offered him full control.

Ever.

[The Tris]

He had more success in 4 years than had happened in the complete joke of the previous 11. By that standard, the only standard as to his remit for being hired, he MORE than won now.

Then both the fans and the owner need to raise there standards of success then.

We can't being complacent to measure our success realtive to our recent failures if we want to be a great football team again.

[Mahons21]

Absolutely!

Snyder should have never offered him full control.

Ever.

Not to bring up politics and I won't use names, but going on that logic not a single elected official is responsible for their actions, because the people never should have elected them.

No employee should be held accountable either, because the owner did hire them.

At some point the individual has to be held accountable for their own actions. Not saying Snyder doesn't have a hand in this, or that Gibbs deserves a ton of blame. But the point of this thread is whether or not Gibbs slowed our future, and with the amt of draft picks he traded away I don't see how anyone could disagree.

Snyder didn't force him to make any of those trades, that we know of at least.

[KDawg]

We can't being complacent to measure our success realtive to our recent failures if we want to be a great football team again.

Yes, if you're looking at the whole picture. No one in the organization was when they brought Gibbs in. They were all looking short term.

Bringing Gibbs back was a mistake.

But, it was Snyder that chose to bring him back with full control, no one else. (And by full control, I mean as long as he and Vinny were on the same page.

The difference between Gibbs and Shanahan is that Shanahan is said to have 100% control, and nothing has really suggested otherwise. His roster moves are entirely his and Bruce Allen's.

---------- Post added May-23rd-2011 at 01:11 PM ----------

Not to bring up politics and I won't use names, but going on that logic not a single elected official is responsible for their actions, because the people never should have elected them.

No employee should be held accountable either, because the owner did hire them.

Not the same.

Snyder could have hired a ton of different people with nearly any philosophy he wanted. He didn't have to go with Gibbs. With elected officials, we don't have that kind of flexibility. We have to take the lesser of the evils. With a football coach theres always someone who fits what you want. And he found that in Zorn... A puppet that Cerrato could control.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Then both the fans and the owner need to raise there standards of success then.

We can't being complacent to measure our success realtive to our recent failures if we want to be a great football team again.

I both agree and disagree.

On the one hand, we should expect the very best from this organization. We have no divine right to win Lombardi's, but given our history, we sure as heck have a right to expect things to be done the right way to put us ion a position to compete year on year.

But then when you sunk as low as this organization did during the Gibbs gap years, so to speak; two play-off season's with such exciting, win or done finishes are like Nirvana to a fan base so starved of success. That's a natural human reaction in such circumstance.

Hail.