Agree with this statement? "The short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILLED this team's future"

[Mahons21]

Did he establish a good base to add on to? Yes.

Who are these players you speak of? I can think of

-Cooley

-Landry

-Moss

-Fletcher

And the last two players are more or less too old at their respective positions to honestly consider them a base to add on to. Which leaves us w/ Cooley and Landry, a TE and a SS as our good base to add on to.

[Crazy Levi]

Nah, I can't dump on Gibbs.

I don't think people realize how amazing it is that he brought us to the playoffs twice in four years under the Snyderatto regime. He is far and away Snyder's most successfull coach - ever.

He's still Saint Gibbs to me and I have better things to do than overanaylze his second stint and try to blame today's troubles on him. The fact is that the bungled Zorn hiring - coming as it did after the worst and most disastrous NFL coaching "search" EVER in the history of the league - is what is most responsible for the horrors of the post Gibbs era. If they hadn't mangled that so horribly that the only guy who would take the job was the wretchedly unqualified Zorn, we'd have been way ahead of the game.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Gibbs is too nice to speak ill of Cerrato (especially to his face) and was too loyal to fire him (or request he be removed) when he was coaching.

The more I've thought about this, the more I've realized that Gibbs being a wonderful human being probably limited his effectiveness as the President of Football Operations. I don't believe that he's a bad personnel guy so much as I believe he just didn't have it in him (especially in his 60s) to fire people or fight with them over moves. I think he gave his input and was perfectly happy letting the three-headed monster determine which guys they'd get. Ultimately, I think he was far too nice and modest (probably wrongly assuming that others were competent) to be an effective executive. That might be why he was best suited to be a head coach...obviously the players loved him and would run through walls for him.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

Gibbs made us competitive again. Nuff said.....

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Sean Taylor, Chris Cooley, Portis, Fletcher, Carlos Rodgers, Rocky Macintosh, Phil Daniels, Laron Landry, Lorenzo Alexander, Marcus Washington, Rabach, Sellers, Rock Cartright (kept him) etc. For starting from Zero it ain't bad. And remember Shanny took over from Zorn so the "base" wasn't added on to, it was misused and wasted/older.

[The Tris]

Sean Taylor, Chris Cooley, Portis, Fletcher, Carlos Rodgers, Rocky Macintosh, Phil Daniels, Laron Landry, Lorenzo Alexander, Marcus Washington, Rabach, Sellers, Rock Cartright.

If that is the sum total of four years of team building and a "foundation", color me unimpressed.

Good coach, bad president.

[worstSeat]

Look, you could tell Gibbs wasn't in favor of the Zorn hire. He had the Skins ready to go. Solid roster, winning, playoff tradition (2 of 3 years), and a clear plan of coaching succession.

Check my sig and the article at The New Yorker it links to (sig's changed; article is here). Gibbs intimidated Snyder, and Dannypants has to feel like he's back in control and *poof*, the "continuity" that we'd hoped for was shot to hell.

(exact quote was, "Gibbs seemed to intimidate Snyder, however, and after his departure the owner seemed to crave a different sort of coach.")

And Gibbs on Vinny's show? Gibbs gets working with others. Dannypants? Not so much.

Don't lay this on Gibbs.

[CMonster]

I have not read one post in this entire thread, but it is unfathomably ridiculous as a question.

[SkinsTribeVA]

Gibbs came back but had no intentions of sticking around for the long term--he believed he could put together a winner within a five year period and make at least one run at the Super Bowl, stabilizing the team and restoring respectability (he left early after being exhausted by the season of ST's death). I would argue that he did stabilize and restore respectability, but because his goals were fairly short term, he did not develop a young core.

I don't blame him for the way he and Snyderatto built that team, but it didn't exactly help us in the years after. Although if we had found a competent coach after Gibbs 2 the team might have continued the upward trend (although Vinny was still around...)

[Darrell Green Fan]

I have not read one post in this entire thread, but it is unfathomably ridiculous as a question.

If you had read some of the thread you might understand the question. He restored credibility while he was here but that is not what the thread was asking. It asked if his moves (trades for TJ Duckett etc) that stripped the team of a ton of high draft choices, left the team in bad shape when he left. And in my opinion this was the case.

They had only a handful of young players to build around, no depth, and a bad cap situation. Anyone following him was doomed to fail given the mess they inherited.

[tshile]

The only reason gibbs had any success in his second run was because of his coaching ability. He received respect, and was able to turn what was an awful team into two playoff runs (although they were both pretty bad runs).

he had (basically) the same team zorn did. zorn went 8-8 (first 6 wins due to noone knowing what he would do) and what, 4-12?. thats how good of a coach gibbs was.

he was in the exact same situation zorn was in - snyder and ceratto running the show in terms of talent acquisition. his coaching allowed him to overcome that. was his second run a failure? yes, compared to expecations. but i think when you compare his results to everyone else who's basically been held hostage by the dynamic duo of cerrato and snyder when trying to build a roster, he did pretty well.

[HailGreen28]

If that is the sum total of four years of team building and a "foundation", color me unimpressed.

Good coach, bad president.

Remember we had two years of Vinny inbetween the Gibbs 2.0 and Shanahan regimes.

It's a decent lineup, and considering how little Vinny did to add to it in two full seasons inbetween Gibbs 2.0 and Shanahallen and what little Gibbs had to start with, I'd say Gibbs did well.

[Crazy Levi]

It wasn't Gibbs' JOB to build a young team that could win in the future. He was trying to win NOW, and he did a good job. In today's NFL, just getting into the playoffs is huge...ANYTHING can happen once you do, and he did it twice.

Considering he was dealing with the worst front office in the NFL, that's freaking amazing.

He didn't "destroy the team's future," that's ridiculous. It's not HIS fault that the Skins didn't go into full rebuilding mode after he retired, which is what they should have done.

This thread is ridiculous and disrepectful, and the "Gibbs destroyed our future" crowd should be ashamed of themselves.

Gibbs left the team in better shape than he found it. He left it as a STABLE organization that was able to win despite the incompetence of it's owner and defacto GM, and was poised, with a little continuity, to build on what he had created.

It took Dan Snyder about 3 weeks to completely destroy that stability with the worst NFL coaching "search" in history. Not Gibbs' fault.

Gibbs left an aging yet stable team. It didn't have to turn into a complete joke but we all know what happened.

[HailGreen28]

If you had read some of the thread you might understand the question. He restored credibility while he was here but that is not what the thread was asking. It asked if his moves (trades for TJ Duckett etc) that stripped the team of a ton of high draft choices, left the team in bad shape when he left. And in my opinion this was the case.

They had only a handful of young players to build around, no depth, and a bad cap situation. Anyone following him was doomed to fail given the mess they inherited.

Bad cap situation? Remember Vinny was able to sign Jason Taylor for big money in 2008, and and Albert Haynesworth for big money in 2009. Gibbs didn't leave us in near enough bad shape to handcuff our front office at all.

We had a good team, just Vinny and Danny could **** up any good team. Remember 1999-2000?

[Mahons21]

The only reason gibbs had any success in his second run was because of his coaching ability. He received respect, and was able to turn what was an awful team into two playoff runs (although they were both pretty bad runs).

I disagree, I think we had a talented roster, the problem was they were aging and we lacked depth because we traded away draft picks.

he had (basically) the same team zorn did. zorn went 8-8 (first 6 wins due to noone knowing what he would do) and what, 4-12?. thats how good of a coach gibbs was.

IIRC both samuels and either Thomas or Jansen all went down for the season around week 8, there were a lot more factors than "people not know what he would," it wasn't as if he was some master of deception.

he was in the exact same situation zorn was in - snyder and ceratto running the show in terms of talent acquisition. his coaching allowed him to overcome that. was his second run a failure? yes, compared to expecations. but i think when you compare his results to everyone else who's basically been held hostage by the dynamic duo of cerrato and snyder when trying to build a roster, he did pretty well.

You should go back and check your facts out, I feel they may be incorrect. First off, Gibbs had total personnel control, Bailey and a 2nd for Portis that was Gibbs, countless picks for Jason Campbell including 2 first rounders that was Gibbs, 3rd for Duckett that was Gibbs.

Zorn on the other hand didn't have control over who would be his OC, entirely different circumstances and they're certainly not an apples to apples comparison.

---------- Post added June-16th-2011 at 10:58 AM ----------

He didn't "destroy the team's future," that's ridiculous. It's not HIS fault that the Skins didn't go into full rebuilding mode after he retired, which is what they should have done.

Then who is to blame for the 7+ draft picks we lost 4 of which were in the first 3 rounds, if it's not the man in charge of personnel?

Would none of these draft picks still be on the team now?

What if we had used a draft pick on a C rather than acquiring Rabach in FA? So long as the player didn't bust, we'd be in better position now, it's hard to argue otherwise.

---------- Post added June-16th-2011 at 11:00 AM ----------

Bad cap situation? Remember Vinny was able to sign Jason Taylor for big money in 2008, and and Albert Haynesworth for big money in 2009. Gibbs didn't leave us in near enough bad shape to handcuff our front office at all.

We had a good team, just Vinny and Danny could **** up any good team. Remember 1999-2000?

Where was the depth on this good team? We could hardly lose a starter without falling apart.

[Crazy Levi]

Then who is to blame for the 7+ draft picks we lost 4 of which were in the first 3 rounds, if it's not the man in charge of personnel?

Would none of these draft picks still be on the team now?

What if we had used a draft pick on a C rather than acquiring Rabach in FA? So long as the player didn't bust, we'd be in better position now, it's hard to argue otherwise.

.

Irrelevant. This didn't "destroy the team's future." The team still has a future. We are in the midst of a rebuilding program that should have begun the day Gibbs retired, with Gregg Williams running the team and a stable organization in place. It wasn't Gibbs' responsibility to stockpile picks for a "future" he wasn't going to be a part of.

The horrors of the last few years are not Gibbs' fault.

[The Tris]

He was trying to win NOW, and he did a good job.

Really? Going 30-34 with one playoff win is considered a successful win now approach?

PS - No one is arguing that he was hired to rebuild the team. What people are arguing is that the moves he made to win now had long lasting effects, which we still feel today, and that he did not win enough to justify such a blantant mortgaging of the future.

[Mahons21]

Irrelevant. This didn't "destroy the team's future." The team still has a future. We are in the midst of a rebuilding program that should have begun the day Gibbs retired, with Gregg Williams running the team and a stable organization in place. It wasn't Gibbs' responsibility to stockpile picks for a "future" he wasn't going to be a part of.

The horrors of the last few years are not Gibbs' fault.

These are the players that would have been depth when we sorely needed it and they would have been filling into a starting roll over the past couple years, not having them certainly did have a negative impact on the future of the team.

Stockpile picks? Who asked him to do that? I just don't want to trade a 3rd rd pick for TJ Duckett, or a shutdown corner and a 2nd rd draft pick for a RB, 2 1st rounders for Campbell... He made some horrible personnel decisions, and they have had a lasting impact.

Again I'll ask you who is to blame for the 7 draft picks we lost?

Or do you not think 7 draft picks, 4 of which were in the first 3 rds could help this team right now?

[hail2skins]

Really? Going 30-34 with one playoff win is considered a successful win now approach?

Agreed.

And I think any designs on "win-now" went out the window when the 2006 season imploded early on and Campbell took the reigns. We expected JC to do more than he ultimately did but probably didn't expect miracles when he took over midway through that season.

[Crazy Levi]

Really? Going 30-34 with one playoff win is considered a successful win now approach?

.

ABSOLUTELY. When your front office is Snyderatto, going 30-34 with one playoff win and two playoff appearances is freaking gangbusters.

or have you not been paying attention for the last 11 years?

The fact of the matter is, you people are blaming Gibbs for the fact that the Skins suck now. It's simply not so. If Snyderatto had put someone competent in charge after Gibbs' retirement, the Skins would be well ahead of the game now.

You can disagree with me if you want and continue to soil the name of the greatest asset the Redskins have ever had. Have fun. I don't even understand your agenda...it's to make up excuses for Dan Snyder?

Good luck with that. It'll never work. Snyder remains loathed by the majority of Redskins fans, and indeed, the media, NFL, world, and universe.

[The Tris]

ABSOLUTELY. When your front office is Snyderatto, going 30-34 with one playoff win and two playoff appearances is freaking gangbusters.

Joe Gibbs had final say over all decisions. If Snyder or Cerrato made awful suggestions/decisions, Gibbs had to approve them.

or have you not been paying attention for the last 11 years?

Unfortunately, I do not measure the success of the Redskins relative to our recent awful history. I believe we should have loftier goals, and higher standards of success, if we ever want to be an NFL power again.

The fact of the matter is, you people are blaming Gibbs for the fact that the Skins suck now.

No. Gibbs is not the sole reason the Skins suck. But he did contribute to the decade's worth of roster mismanagement that resulted in our current situation. So he shares the blame to some degree.

If Snyderatto had put someone competent in charge after Gibbs' retirement, the Skins would be well ahead of the game now.

So if Gregg Williams had been coach, the OL would have suddenly gotten younger over night? Come on.

Our problems were rooted in far worse causes than who the coach was in 2008.

You can disagree with me if you want and continue to soil the name of the greatest asset the Redskins have ever had.

Joe Gibbs is the greatest coach the Redskins have ever seen, and even in his second stint, he was the greatest coach we have had since his first stint.

That does not mean he is above criticism. Especially considering he was not solely the coach from 2004-2007.

it's to make up excuses for Dan Snyder?

Hardly. If you took two seconds to pull your head out of your keister, you would see that I have never once defended or even excused Snyder. He is the root cause of all our problems due to his inability to set productive long term goals, and hire and delegate properly. He has yet to hire a coach or GM that was a good choice to fix our team.

[ADF]

Well, here are the moves made during Gibbs 2.0. Beside each player's name is the age they turned during the season they signed. The number in parentheses is their age when Gibbs left. There is a "NWT" next to the players who were not on the team by the time Gibbs left. I did this very quickly so let me know if there are any mistakes.

2004

Free Agents/Trade Acquisitions

Mark Brunell - 34 (NWT)

Clinton Portis - 23 (27)

Marcus Washington - 27 (31)

Cornelius Griffin - 28 (32)

Shawn Springs - 29 (33)

Walt Harris - 30 (NWT)

Joe Salave'a - 29 (NWT)

Phillip Daniels - 31 (35)

Ryan Clark - 25 (NWT)

Demetric Evans - 25 (29)

Mike Sellers - 29 (33)

Draft (Rounds 1-4)

01. Sean Taylor - (NWT)

02. Traded (Portis)

03. Traded (Brunell)

03. Chris Cooley

04. Traded (Morton) *Not Traded during Gibbs' tenure

---------

2005

Free Agents/Trade Acquisitions

Casey Rabach - 28 (31)

Santana Moss - 26 (29)

Warrick Holdman - 30 (NWT)

David Patton - 31 (NWT)

Draft (Rounds 1-4)

01. Carlos Rogers

01. Jason Campbell

02. Traded (Cooley)

03. Traded (Campbell)

04. Manuell White - (NWT)

---------

2006

Free Agents/Trade Acquisitions

Adam Archuleta - 29 (NWT)

Brandon Lloyd - 25 (NWT)

Antwaan Randle El - 27 (29)

Andre Carter - 27 (29)

TJ Duckett - 25 (NWT)

Todd Collins - 35 (37)

Draft (Rounds 1-4)

01. Traded (Campbell)

02. Rocky McIntosh

03. Traded (Lloyd)

04. Traded (Campbell)

---------

2007

Free Agents/Trade Acquisitions

Jason Fabini - 33 (NWT)

London Fletcher - 32 (33)

Pete Kendall - 34 (35)

Fred Smoot - 28 (29)

Draft (Rounds 1-4)

01. Laron Landry

02. Traded (McIntosh)

03. Traded (Duckette)

04. Traded (Lloyd)

---------

2004 - 2007 Draft (Rounds 5-7) The only late round picks to help the team.

Blades

Golston

Montgomery

Doughty

---------

IMHO, the team was in pretty bad shape once Gibbs left. We were an old team with no depth. There really wasn't much of a future on the team. The team needed to be rebuilt and that shouldn't have been the case after only four seasons. Ultimately, all of this falls on Snyder (IMHO). Until he decides that he wants this team built the right way, this failed strategy will continue. Coaches will always go with the quick fix if the owner is for it and is giving them tons of money to work with.