Agree with this statement? "The short sighted moves Gibbs made over and over again KILLED this team's future"

[Mahons21]

Not the same.

Snyder could have hired a ton of different people with nearly any philosophy he wanted. He didn't have to go with Gibbs. With elected officials, we don't have that kind of flexibility. We have to take the lesser of the evils. With a football coach theres always someone who fits what you want. And he found that in Zorn... A puppet that Cerrato could control.

I see what you're saying but it's the same logic, and if you don't want to use the political example use the employee example. An owner can choose any employee, so if their employee makes a major mistake it's actually not the employee's fault it's the owner's for hiring them.

I think at some point people need to be held accountable for their own actions, even if someone gave them responsibility.

I assume you think Zorn deserves no blame either?

[The Tris]

Again, I agreed that two losing seasons were unacceptable on a win now team.

But I also did mention that he got us two of our best three seasons since the last time he was coach. It matters.

I think even at his highs of 2005 and 2007, it is a stretch to label them successful "win now" seasons.

I guess I have an unrealistic expectation of winning now - if I am going to actively mortgage the future, I need something much more substantial than a sub-.500 record.

The best example of succeeding with a win now approach I see is the current Jets team. At least they are making conference championships and are contenders to win a super bowl. That at least softens the blow when the bill comes due.

We were never Super Bowl contenders during Gibbs II.

[s0crates]

To those of you who are attacking Gibbs, I say shame on you. It was people like you who boo'd Gibbs the week Sean Taylor died. It was people like you who chanted "Joe must go" in 2007. Ultimately, I think short-sighted fans who booed Gibbs were a big reason he left. We will never know what Gibbs could have done in year 5. It makes me sick to even think about.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know how anyone can argue Gibbs II was really a success - when it comes right down to it, he lost more than he won, and isn't a coach's job to win games? Sure, he had two playoff runs (which resulted in a 1-2 record), but in between, he had his two worst seasons ever - 6-10 and 5-11. And that 5-11 season was in Year 3, when all the Spurrier problems were supposedly cleared out. The records, and the inconsistency, say it all about Gibbs II - ultimately, it was a disappointment.

I worshiped Gibbs 1 as for Gibbs 2, I respected him as a leader and legend but as a coach he IMO was so so, record below 500, 2 awful seasons, and 2 seasons where they snuck into the playoffs and got eliminated quickly

A few of you have mentioned that Gibbs had less than a 50% winning percentage in his second tenure. I am compelled to reply to this. You should really consider Gibbs' second term in its historical context:

Steve Spurrier's record (2002-03): 12-20 (.377)

Joe Gibbs II's record (2004-07): 30-34 (.468)

Jim Zorn's record (2008-09): 12-20 (.377)

You also have to remember that before Gibbs came back we had not beaten Dallas in something like 5 or 6 seasons, and we had been dominated within our division for years. That 5-1 division record in 2005 was no small feat. Who else has come close to that kind of success this past decade?

If you have a bit of perspective, you can clearly see that this team was better off with Gibbs than they were without him. Gibbs did not win his 4th Super Bowl, so sure it could have been better, but Gibbs II was still the high-water mark of the last 20 or so seasons. Gibbs II did make this team better. A lot better.

Some fans are like children, if everything does not go just the way they want they throw tantrums and lash out at everybody, even a saint like Joe. This is how I see Joe Gibbs haters:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In closing, I would like to quote some posters who are talking sense:

Again, you're right in principle, but not in specifics. Especially your magical timeline where picks uniformly mature in 2-3 years, in your arguments. The fact that Gibbs players like CP, Landry, Alexander, Cooley, Fletcher, Golston, Rogers, McIntosh, Moss, STILL were the core of this team in 2010, three seasons after Gibbs left, is a credit to Gibbs. Not a reason to blame him. Again, blame the idiots who succeeded Gibbs for not replenishing the ranks after Gibbs left.

HAIL!

We been to the playoffs twice in 10 years. Both times we were coached by gibbs. Enuff said....

Gibbs 1 isn't at issue here, or under consideration. What is, is what he's wrongly being accused of, when it should be the owner that's being criticised. Save for winning the Lombardi, in the main he did exactly what was asked of him when he took the position. He had more success in 4 years than had happened in the complete joke of the previous 11. By that standard, the only standard as to his remit for being hired, he MORE than won now.

Was it wholey successful in the bigger picture? Not at all. But for that period, he did what he was asked. If you think he should of done more, you need to turn your anger to the owners direction.

Hail.

I'm glad to hear a few voices of reason over the chorus of general stupidness.

[KDawg]

I see what you're saying but it's the same logic, and if you don't want to use the political example use the employee example. An owner can choose any employee, so if their employee makes a major mistake it's actually not the employee's fault it's the owner's for hiring them.

At that point a good owner would tell them to fix it or get lost.

We didn't see that with Snyder.

And, I also find it difficult to blame and employee for doing exactly what you hired him to do. Make short term moves. That was the direction from ownership. Or I believe it to be to be accurate, as I have no concrete proof of that.

If my Boss tells me to fix a driveway with sealer and then the house owner flips out because he wanted the driveway to be completely redone rather than resealed, who's fault is it? My boss or mine?

---------- Post added May-23rd-2011 at 01:19 PM ----------

We were never Super Bowl contenders during Gibbs II.

Agreed here. Completely.

[The Tris]

To those of you who are attacking Gibbs, I say shame on you. ...

I'm glad to hear a voice of reason in the chorus of general stupidness.

If that is your bar for success, don't expect to win a Super Bowl any time soon.

That's the still goal, right? To be the best?

Or is the goal to simply "not be as bad" as those before you?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

[quote name=Mahons21;8312684

I assume you think Zorn deserves no blame either?

We're getting a little off topic' date=' but meh:

Zorn was a guy who had not so much as had a coordinator gig when he landed here, and suddenly dumb and dumber are offering him a HC position in the NF freaking L. He was patently in WAY over his head. He knew it. We knew it. Every ***** knew it. And it was painful to watch a decent guy fall apart and get ridiculed so publicly, whilst being repeatedly hung out to dry by his employers who should NEVER of employed him in the first place.

No, I don't blame Zorn for either grabbing his once in a life time chance, or for failing so miserably when he never asked for the gig to start with.

Hail.

---------- Post added May-23rd-2011 at 12:27 PM ----------

We were never Super Bowl contenders during Gibbs II.

We haven't been SB contenders since we last won the trophy. Even Norv's division winners never went into the post-season favored to do much of anyrthing.

But that doesn't take away from the achievement of those two season's in Gibbs II. Particularly the second run under such horrid circumstance.

Hail.

[The Tris]

We haven't been SB contenders since we last won the trophy. Even Norv's division winners never went into the post-season favored to do much of anyrthing.

We were dark horses in 2000. Widely pick to win the East, most had us ranked in the top 5-8 teams in the NFL preseason.

But off topic.

But that doesn't take away from the achievement of those two season's in Gibbs II. Particularly the second run under such horrid circumstance.

Hail.

If there is not a realistic chance you can win a Super Bowl in a year or two, why enact a policy of win now?

[KDawg]

If there is not a realistic chance you can win a Super Bowl in a year or two, why enact a policy of win now?

Here's a better way of asking:

If there is not a realistic chance you can win a Super Bowl in a year or two, why hire an aging head coach who was responsible for every one of our previous Lombardies who wouldn't be around for a long time to do just that?

[The Tris]

Right. Snyder is public enemy #1 here.

But there's blood on Gibbs' hands as well. (but thats the case with nearly every member of the Redskins FO

since 2000...)

[KDawg]

(but thats the case with nearly every member of the Redskins FO and coach staff since 2000...)

This... Right here.... Is why I find it difficult to blame Gibbs.

It's been Snyder's sinking ship. Not Gibbs.

[Mursilis]

A few of you have mentioned that Gibbs had less than a 50% winning percentage in his second tenure. I am compelled to reply to this. You should really consider Gibbs' second term in its historical context:

Steve Spurrier's record (2002-03): 12-20 (.377)

Joe Gibbs II's record (2004-07): 30-34 (.468)

Jim Zorn's record (2009-09): 12-20 (.377)

So? Sean Peyton took over a 3-13 Saints team and has had .613 (regular season) and .667 (playoffs) record since. Oh, and a Super Bowl title.

Furthermore, you forgot to mention Marty, he of the .500 record. Regardless, saying Gibbs 2.0 was great because Zorn and Spurrier were terrible is just bad logic. You don't get into the Hall of Fame because you're just slightly better than the last clown - you get in because you win games. Ultimately, that's the only metric that matters. If a .468 record is "success", then this team might as well be the Browns, Raiders, or Lions.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

We were dark horses in 2000. Widely pick to win the East, most had us ranked in the top 5-8 teams in the NFL preseason.

We certainly weren't favored going into the playoff's. And nor should we of been. That wasn't a dominating football team in the mould of true contenders.

But meh, that's long past history now.

Hail.

[The Tris]

This... Right here.... Is why I find it difficult to blame Gibbs.

It's been Snyder's sinking ship. Not Gibbs.

And I would agree with that, if Gibbs didn't have final say over all roster moves.

The analogy that I use is that the Redskins under Snyder are like a one of those airport treadmills moving towards failure. Whether you walk or run along it, or just stand still, you are still moving towards failure.

Vinny Cerrato sprinted down the treadmill. Gibbs stood still. Both did little to stop the direction of the team.

Only a GM who turns around and runs the other direction will be free of blame.

It's Snyder's sinking ship, but I didn't see Gibbs bailing water.

[ThomasRoane]

Right. Snyder is public enemy #1 here.

But there's blood on Gibbs' hands as well. (but thats the case with nearly every member of the Redskins FO

since 2000...)

The only guilt Gibbs bares is trusting Cerrato to pick the players and for listening to him make the suggestion to bring in Saunders. I love the short term memory many of you have. Week in and week out Gibbs had the Redskins in the ball game. There were only a couple of really bad games and that one year I blame more Gregg Williams for believing schemes were more important than players. Had he kept Pierce and Clark we'd have been much better. Of course Cerrato probably had something to do with that as well.

Look how fast the team fell out of contention when Gibbs left. Shanahan is realizing the team is bereft of talent. And yet Gibbs had much more success than Shanny with a weak roster. And Gibbs had been out of the game for 12 years!

Seriously, stop blaming the man who is the reason we have 3 more Lombardi's than Phily; who still has 0!

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

You know what's really sad?

As I type, we're upto 11 pages and 163 posts debating the value of the second tenure in charge of the greatest man ever employed by this organization. A period that regardless of anything gave us our most enjoyable and successful 4 year spell since his first go-around. And we're doing this at a time when the owner has finally given us what we've craved for so long, and we have a professional football outfit for the first time in eons from top to bottom doing things the right way again.

Now that is sad.

It's only the darn lock-out and no football that saves it from being tragic.

Hail.

[Going Commando]

If that is your bar for success, don't expect to win a Super Bowl any time soon.

Fans around here have very low expectations IMO. I think that's why so many are satisfied with the job Shanahan & Allen have performed to date.

Gibbs 2.0 was unequivocally a failure. We hired him to win a Superbowl and he didn't. He retired after 4 difficult seasons when the strain on him and his family became too much.

I get the sense that a lot of fans are happy enough with the team as long as we're not a laughing stock.

[s0crates]

So? Sean Peyton took over a 3-13 Saints team and has had .613 (regular season) and .667 (playoffs) record since. Oh, and a Super Bowl title.

Furthermore, you forgot to mention Marty, he of the .500 record. Regardless, saying Gibbs 2.0 was great because Zorn and Spurrier were terrible is just bad logic. You don't get into the Hall of Fame because you're just slightly better than the last clown - you get in because you win games. Ultimately, that's the only metric that matters. If a .468 record is "success", then this team might as well be the Browns, Raiders, or Lions.

First of all, you cut off a big part of my argument. Gibbs broke our long losing streak against Dallas, and started winning division games, something that we had been unable to do before Gibbs returned. That was a major improvement, whether or not you acknowledge it as such.

Second of all, Gibbs II accomplished more in those 4 years than any other coach in the past 20 years. If you cannot see why the mess Gibbs II inherited is relevant, then I am at a loss as to what to say to you.

The fact remains that this team has been bad for 20 years. We have had exactly 3 playoff appearances since 1992. 2 of those came during Gibbs II. That should count for something, don't you think?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Fans around here have very low expectations IMO. I think that's why so many are satisfied with the job Shanahan & Allen have performed to date.

Wait. We're blaming the new regime for not being more successful in year one now? After the complete **** storm of a situation they walked into, and all the changes made. Changes WE, the FANS have been crying out for years, have been implemented?

Geez, it's SB or nothing every season huh? Or your a failure. Nothing like living out Madden-esq expectations in the real World. Who said Reskins fans weren't arrogant?

Hail.

[Darth Tater]

The biggest irony is that most of those who are mad about us being a win now team are often those who either want us to be a win now team or propose a method that will pretty much guarantee suckitude until we get lucky.

[Darrell Green Fan]

You know what's really sad?

As I type, we're upto 11 pages and 163 posts debating the value of the second tenure in charge of the greatest man ever employed by this organization. A period that regardless of anything gave us our most enjoyable and successful 4 year spell since his first go-around. And we're doing this at a time when the owner has finally given us what we've craved for so long, and we have a professional football outfit for the first time in eons from top to bottom doing things the right way again.

Now that is sad.

It's only the darn lock-out and no football that saves it from being tragic.

Hail.

I think it's sad that we can't have an honest discussion about Joe Gibbs without people catching feelings. While I agree that the fans chanting "Joe Must Go" deserve to have their tickets taken I don't see any reason why we can't have a discussion on the contention by a very small minority of posters (judging by the responses) that the team Joe Gibbs left in 2007 was in "great shape".

Nobody is trying to disrespect Coach Gibbs. We all understand what he has meant to the team. But being a great man does not immune you from criticism. And putting his record up against the coaches that followed him is completely useless to the topic at hand. If you feel, as one guy here does, that a young core consisting of 5 players, one being London Fletcher who was not young but continues to be productive, is leaving the team in great shape going forward then I'll just respectfully disagree.

But please stop crying "Blasphemy!!!!"

[Mursilis]

And we're doing this at a time when the owner has finally given us what we've craved for so long, and we have a professional football outfit for the first time in eons from top to bottom doing things the right way again.

All that remains to be seen. Was the McNabb trade "doing things the right way again"? When it translates onto the field, you'll be right. Until then, the Redskins are just another 6-10 team.

[s0crates]

Gibbs 2.0 was unequivocally a failure. We hired him to win a Superbowl and he didn't.

Geez, it's SB or nothing ever season huh? Or your a failure. Nothing like living out Madden-esq expectations in the real World. Who said Reskins fans weren't arrogant?

Hail.

Like I hinted earlier, some 'skins fans are like little Veruca Salts.

"I want a Super Bowl Daddy! Give it to me NOW!!"

Personally, I think spoiled brats are bad eggs.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

DGF, I believe I answered similar 4 pages back on Gibbs, or anyone else for that matter, being beyond reproach from criticism.

Murslis, without turning this into a thread on the new regime of Allen and Shanahan, if you honestly can't see the dramatic changes from the owner on down within a year in this organization I honestly don't know what you are seeing.

Hail.

[Mursilis]

First of all, you cut off a big part of my argument. Gibbs broke our long losing streak against Dallas, and started winning division games, something that we had been unable to do before Gibbs returned. That was a major improvement, whether or not you acknowledge it as such.

Second of all, Gibbs II accomplished more in those 4 years than any other coach in the past 20 years. If you cannot see why the mess Gibbs II inherited is relevant, then I am at a loss as to what to say to you.

The fact remains that this team has been bad for 20 years. We have had exactly 3 playoff appearances since 1992. 2 of those came during Gibbs II. That should count for something, don't you think?

And Wayne Fontes was the last coach to get Detroit into the playoffs. You think he's polishing his HoF speech? Again, you're just setting a very low bar just comparing Gibbs to the past Redskins coaches. Compared to Spurrier and Zorn, lots of NFL coaches come out looking pretty darn good.

[Darrell Green Fan]

All that remains to be seen. Was the McNabb trade "doing things the right way again"? When it translates onto the field, you'll be right. Until then, the Redskins are just another 6-10 team.

Shanny made 2 moves, McNabb and Brown, in his first off season. Although I was not in favor of the McNabb deal I could understand it as they righfully (IMO) concluded that Jason Campbell will never be a top QB. So they needed a QB, decided to roll the dice and it came up craps. He was quoted as saying "you make a mistake, you don't compound the mistake you simply move on". And that's really all they could do.

But other than those 2 moves there is nothing in his history here that would resemble "business as usual". They did not overspend in FA last off season. Hell they lowballed Brian Westbrook when he wanted to come play with his brother. You know damn well Danny would have given that guy a $2 million singing bonus. Snyderato would also have tried to trade up to grab one of the big name QBs in this draft. Instead Shanny did exactly as we all had hoped he would do, trade back and acquire additional picks.

Not sure if it will work or not but this is NOT the same old Redskins management.