Multiple Sources: Multiple shot including Congress Woman

[10fttall]

The political right is responsible for this in the same way that Jody Foster was responsible for John Hinckley, Jr. shooting Regan. Come on! We're talking about a deranged individual. Who in the hell really believes people should not be able to say that people's policies are dangerous? Or should people not be able to say that the public should take back the country from the bloated stupid spending machine it is? Is that too "hateful" for some poor wusses out there? No, don't be stupid! People that are INSANE will find a reason to do DUMB things regardless of what talk radio hosts or Sarah Palin say. They will come up with secret messages from Dan Rather or other TV shows.

People's idiocy is really on full display bemoaning how "today's politics" or "talk radio" is in the slightest way responsible for this nut. Of course there is already plenty of evidence this a-hole was more left-leaning than right wing, but I really don't expect this to stop everyone stupidly bringing up Palin this and Limbaugh that.

[Stadium-Armory]

The political right is responsible for this in the same way that Jody Foster was responsible for John Hinckley, Jr. shooting Regan. Come on! We're talking about a deranged individual. Who in the hell really believes people should not be able to say that people's policies are dangerous? Or should people not be able to say that the public should take back the country from the bloated stupid spending machine it is? Is that too "hateful" for some poor wusses out there? No, don't be stupid! People that are INSANE will find a reason to do DUMB things regardless of what talk radio hosts or Sarah Palin say. They will come up with secret messages from Dan Rather or other TV shows.

People's idiocy is really on full display bemoaning how "today's politics" or "talk radio" is in the slightest way responsible for this nut. Of course there is already plenty of evidence this a-hole was more left-leaning than right wing, but I really don't expect this to stop everyone stupidly bringing up Palin this and Limbaugh that.

That may be true. I for one am not rushing to judgement.

I also think its fair to draw a distinction between constructive disagreement, and potentially irresponsible rhetoric. Its one thing to say: "I disagree with the health care bill, and we should work hard to repeal it", and it is another thing to say: "anyone who agrees with the health care law is an idiot who deserves to be wiped off the planet".

[Teller]

I'm happy to hear that the congresswoman hasn't given up her fight for life. I pray that she will not only survive, but enjoy a healthy and long life.

When I was a police officer in the eastern panhandle of WV, one of our troopers was shot in the head responding to a domestic violence incident. At the hospital, one of the nurses told me, "He's not even going to make it to (the trauma center in) Hagerstown." He did. And then he made it to INOVA. And two years later, he was the keynote speaker at the local Dapper Dan baseball dinner. His speech is slurred, and he walks with a cane, but he's made a truly miraculous recovery. I pray the congresswoman will do the same.

[Madison Redskin]

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[PCS]

The latest by the LATimes.

Six dead in shooting that wounds Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gabrielle-giffords-20110109,0,961233.story?page=1&track=rss

[Stadium-Armory]

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Too bad, it was a good one.

[DjTj]

Every violent act has some motivation behind it. Whether it is political, religous, sexual or whatever is irrelevant when you're talking about the violent act of an individual. It only speaks to the individuals instability. If it isn't one thing, it would be another.

Frankly, I think that's a cop-out. Is Mexican border violence simply the result of individual actions? Or do drugs and immigration policy affect it? Is inner city violence simply the result of individual actions? Or do drugs and poverty affect it? Were the September 11 attacks simply the result of individual actions? Or did religion and foreign policy affect it?

To label this as merely an individual action, and to dismiss this killer as crazy, is to admit that we can't do anything to prevent incidents like this. I refuse to believe that.

Placing the blame solely on the individual

Did a 9 year old die too?

Did a Federal judge die too?

Did a staff member die too?

Did 2 other people (potential staff?) die too?

I was a little frustrated about the lack of coverage regarding the other victims, especially the federal judge. But the shooting happened at an event organized by Giffords's office, underneath a banner that read "Gabrielle Giffords," so she was the only victim that anyone could identify for several hours after the incident. The focus on her was really the result of a lack of information. There is a little better coverage of the other victims now, but the Congresswoman was the beginning of the story, so she will continue to be the headline.

edit to add more detail about the other victims:

U.S. District Judge John M. Roll

Named Arizona's chief federal judge in 2006, Roll won wide acclaim for a career as a respected jurist and as a leader who had pushed to beef up the court's strained bench to handle a growing number of border crime-related cases.

"I have never met a more sincere ... fair-minded, brilliant federal judge or any judge for that matter in my whole life," Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

Roll, 63, was heading home after a trip to church and the store before stopping to visit briefly with Giffords at an event she was holding for constituents at a northwest-side Tucson Safeway.

Roll was a Pennsylvania native who got his law degree from the University of Virginia. He is survived by his wife, Maureen, three sons, and five grandchildren.

Roll was appointed to the federal bench in 1991 by President George H.W. Bush. Roll previously served as a state trial judge and as a judge on the midlevel Arizona Court of appeals. He previously worked as a county and state prosecutor.

Christina Taylor Greene

The 9-year-old who was shot at the event and later died at a hospital went to the Giffords event with a neighbor because she had just been elected to the student council and was interested in government, her uncle told KTAR in Phoenix.

Born Sept. 11, 2001, according to NBC station KVOA, she attended Mesa Verde Elementary School.

Gabe Zimmerman

Giffords' 30-year-old communications outreach director was engaged to be married, the Arizona Republic reported. He had worked for Giffords in her Tucson district since 2007.

“We serve who walks into our office and we don’t even ask what party they belong to,” Zimmerman told the Tucson Citizen in 2007.

Dorwin Stoddard

The 76-year-old retiree was described as a jack of all trades by Mike Nowak, the couple’s minister at Mountain Ave. Church of Christ, told the Arizona Daily Star. Stoddard's wife, Mavanell, was shot in the leg but is expected to recover, the Star reported.

Stoddard, who performed maintenance work at the church, and his wife spent summers traveling, friends told the Star. The couple visited all 50 states and 28 foreign countries, they said.

Other victims

Police said Dorthy Murray, 76, and Phyllis Scheck, 79, were also killed in the shooting.

Also injured but expected to be all right, said C.J. Karamargin, Giffords' communications director, are staffer Pam Simon and deputy director Ron Barber.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40983356/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

[HailGreen28]

In hindsight, poor word choice by Palin and others about "targeting" politicians.

But blaming right-wing politicos for this, is like blaming video games for Columbine. It just makes the accusers look stupid. And trying to use a tragedy for political advantage, like usual slime-ball politicians of both sides.

[JimboDaMan]

Thanks, I don't think the vitriol from both side caused this but maybe it will cause some to reflect....sadly I doubt it.

This is one reason I'd much rather not have people talking about Palin's crosshairs nonsense. If she's attacked I think she'll dig in her heels, maybe even ramp things up a bit. But if left alone hopefully after this she'll tone it down a bit. I understand the "take back the 20" website with the crosshairs map is down now and with any luck it will stay that way.

BTW I was intemperate in my response to you earlier and I apologise. The word "target" is used in many contexts, we have sales "targets", we have "targeted" tax cuts, the QB's pass was "on target", etc. There's no way that kind of talk is the same as a visual display of a rifle crosshairs over the symbolic location of your opponents. I disagree with you equating the two, but there was no need for me to be rude. Sorry.

[ardowling]

This is one reason I'd much rather not have people talking about Palin's crosshairs nonsense. If she's attacked I think she'll dig in her heels, maybe even ramp things up a bit. But if left alone hopefully after this she'll tone it down a bit. I understand the "take back the 20" website with the crosshairs map is down now and with any luck it will stay that way.

BTW I was intemperate in my response to you earlier and I apologise. The word "target" is used in many contexts, we have sales "targets", we have "targeted" tax cuts, the QB's pass was "on target", etc. There's no way that kind of talk is the same as a visual display of a rifle crosshairs over the symbolic location of your opponents. I disagree with you equating the two, but there was no need for me to be rude. Sorry.

NP were good

[stevenaa]

Frankly, I think that's a cop-out. Is Mexican border violence simply the result of individual actions? Or do drugs and immigration policy affect it? Is inner city violence simply the result of individual actions? Or do drugs and poverty affect it? Were the September 11 attacks simply the result of individual actions? Or did religion and foreign policy affect it?

To label this as merely an individual action, and to dismiss this killer as crazy, is to admit that we can't do anything to prevent incidents like this. I refuse to believe that.

It's not a cop out. It's the realization that there are sick physcotic people in this world who will do horrible things and there isn't a thing we can do to prevent them from doing harm. These people will find something to latch onto to feed their physcosis. This is a horrible tragedy and there's no sense making more out of it than that.

[RansomthePasserby]

It's not a cop out. It's the realization that there are sick physcotic people in this world who will do horrible things and there isn't a thing we can do to prevent them from doing harm. These people will find something to latch onto to feed their physcosis. This is a horrible tragedy and there's no sense making more out of it than that.

I agree. Sometimes there's just messed up people out there who do messed up things.

[DjTj]

It's not a cop out. It's the realization that there are sick physcotic people in this world who will do horrible things and there isn't a thing we can do to prevent them from doing harm. These people will find something to latch onto to feed their physcosis. This is a horrible tragedy and there's no sense making more out of it than that.

Maybe. But we simply don't know all the facts here. Police are reportedly looking for an accomplice.

Simply dismissing this as a psychotic individual without knowing all the facts is just as irresponsible as trying to blame one side of the political spectrum.

And even if it is simply an act of insanity, we can still benefit from trying to understand it, so that we may be able to better identify and treat these people. The aftermath of the Virginia Tech massacre led to some progress in that area. No situation is completely unique, and if we don't even try to learn from tragedy, we may find ourselves repeating it.

[stevenaa]

Maybe. But we simply don't know all the facts here. Police are reportedly looking for an accomplice.

Simply dismissing this as a psychotic individual without knowing all the facts is just as irresponsible as trying to blame one side of the political spectrum.

And even if it is simply an act of insanity, we can still benefit from trying to understand it, so that we may be able to better identify and treat these people. The aftermath of the Virginia Tech massacre led to some progress in that area. No situation is completely unique, and if we don't even try to learn from tragedy, we may find ourselves repeating it.

Agree 100%.

[@DCGoldPants]

I kept an eye on this thread today, but didn't feel like I had anything of value to add.

Its just a sad thing that happened today, especially to those who were murdered and their families.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have some suspicions of what was influencing this guy. But looking at the stuff from his myspace they've posted in the news. It almost feels like he was listing a bunch of books all over the place to seem mysterious and confusing. Maybe even to throw people off.

Hopefully an investigation in his home and other things he's done will clear everything up.

As far as the "Target" talk, and other talking heads claiming a revolution is coming. I don't know if either of those things had a direct impact on today. But its hard to blame people for thinking of those things when something like this happens.

Just a really sad day overall. Hopefully tomorrow brings some answers.

[RansomthePasserby]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have some suspicions of what was influencing this guy. But looking at the stuff from his myspace they've posted in the news. It almost feels like he was listing a bunch of books all over the place to seem mysterious and confusing. Maybe even to throw people off.

Have you seen his YouTube videos?

[@DCGoldPants]

Have you seen his YouTube videos?

Yep.

[DjTj]

Agree 100%.

Good.

And also for polywog,

If any one group needs to own this, it's people like me. the mentally ill.

here is an article explaining why mental illness is not in itself an explanation for violence:

Shortly after Jared Lee Loughner had been identified as the alleged shooter of Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, online sleuths turned up pages of rambling text and videos he had created. A wave of amateur diagnoses soon followed, most of which concluded that Loughner was not so much a political extremist as a man suffering from "paranoid schizophrenia."

For many, the investigation will stop there. No need to explore personal motives, out-of-control grievances or distorted political anger. The mere mention of mental illness is explanation enough. This presumed link between psychiatric disorders and violence has become so entrenched in the public consciousness that the entire weight of the medical evidence is unable to shift it. Severe mental illness, on its own, is not an explanation for violence, but don't expect to hear that from the media in the coming weeks.

http://www.slate.com/id/2280619/

There are a lot of people with mental illness, but very few people with mental illness who commit mass murder. Whatever the real story is, it's not going to simply be "he's crazy," although it may be easy for us to accept that explanation.

[lovetoaster]

This really upsets me. When we start to make our opinions heard with bullets instead of words, our society falls apart. I do not know what the motivation was for this, and a lot of me does not want to know. It does not matter and I do not want to let others think that they can have their voices heard by doing things like this.

I do not doubt that the suspect had a mental illness or some other serious issues. But at some point you have to take responsibility for actions, especially when they are of this nature. Go to hell Jared.

[abdcskins]

The only thing that comes to mind when I see these types of things, other than there are some sick people in this world, is that we need tougher gun laws. Would've that prevented this tragedy? Maybe not. But it definitley would've impeded it somewhat. The guy bought the gun in November at a local store from what I read. That just seems way too easy to me. I bothers me that anyone can go do that.

Also people need to check for warning signs more often. That is easy to say in hindsight, but if I see or hear someone talking a bunch of crazy hateful nonsense then I am for sure going to tell some law official of some kind. These people need psychiatric help and don't belong in mainstream society unless they have some sort of assistance or strong social circle.

[polywog999]

As for the mental illness angle:

Just as we cannot know that the man was mentally ill, we also cannot know that he wasn't. I based my summery judgment, not on his content, but rather his style. Jumping from subject to subject, without proper articulation, incorrect framing, rambling and incoherent, profound mistrust of his enemies. You would have to be asleep to not see the patterns here.

One point that I would like to make is that it is also quite easy to fool people initially, where MI is concerned. Even the MI often can exaggerate their condition to feign being worse than they actually are. This is very hard to catch.

Also, criminals will decide very early on to start pushing it as a defense.

Son of Sam, left notes saying that a dog was commanding him to kill. After talking to people that he knew and catching him in several lies, he finally admitted that he made it up.

The Hillside strangler claimed to have multiple personality disorder. Again an elaborate hoax.

One thing is for sure.....people rarely use mental illness with any degree of success now-a-days. Prosecutors want someone to pay. The public wants someone to pay. Even if this guy is quite profoundly MI, he will be found guilty. Be certain of that.

[Burgold]

In hindsight, poor word choice by Palin and others about "targeting" politicians.

But blaming right-wing politicos for this, is like blaming video games for Columbine. It just makes the accusers look stupid. And trying to use a tragedy for political advantage, like usual slime-ball politicians of both sides.

I disagree. It's like blaming years of bullying and harassment for Columbine. The shooters are still responsible and at fault. How many of us have been bullied and haven't chosen that route, but those who created that environment and contributed to their insanity helped to make it happen.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

The only thing that comes to mind when I see these types of things, other than there are some sick people in this world, is that we need tougher gun laws. Would've that prevented this tragedy? Maybe not. But it definitley would've impeded it somewhat. The guy bought the gun in November at a local store from what I read. That just seems way too easy to me. I bothers me that anyone can go do that.

See my question is, how would you enforce something like that; keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, violent, etc. Give every potential gun owner a psychiatric test? Check the medical records of gun owners? I just don't see what could be done. Do you really want the government going through people's medical records? Should people be blacklisted because a "friend" or family member reports signs of mental of illness? I guess maybe certain things could go into a database--psychiatric hospital stays, mental-illness related--but non-felonious--arrests, etc. Then that pops up on a background check and warrants more investigation. But last I checked, this guy has never been arrested, never been committed.

Sorry, just thinking aloud. I think our system, our society, our way of life just is what it is. There's only so much that can be done. **** is going to happen and we need to just accept that that's the world we live in. And really, if you think about how many people there are, when you wrap your mind around that number (300+ million) I'm actually surprised there aren't way more ****ed up individuals out there doing things like this. It's just a shame that the few who are, are able to inflict so much damage, so easily.

Oh and of course violent, eliminationist rhetoric coming from national figures is going to influence people. The political and apolitical alike. It seeps into society and the culture we live in.

[GoSkins561]

Pretty much, even though this freak was able to purchase a gun legally, if for some reason he was denied by laws, he could have found one illegally.

[aREDSKIN]

Reportedly, this guy has a long history and recent run in with the police & other authorities for disruptive and threats of violence behavior. It's documented and IMO should have been looked at long and hard way before this had happened.