Multiple Sources: Multiple shot including Congress Woman

[Bang]

Are people really this shallow?

Blaming Palin and company after learning this guy had mental issues is just stupid.

Blaming Palin specifically isn't right.

But looking at the violence laced rhetoric that consists of political dialog these days, and how it might affect a mentally disturbed person.. I see nothing wrong with discussing that.

Of course, people will boil it down to specific people or a specific side because that's what they do. Some will blame and point, others will defend regardless. And neither will see that both of them share the same problem.

Performers have to be somewhat responsible to their audience. If we continue to encourage the level of vitriol we've got, it'll only get worse, then we can expect more of this sort of thing. And then we can argue about it again, Maybe the sides will be reversed, and maybe they won't. But the fact is public speakers have to take into account what it is they're saying to the public. If we don't ask them to cool it, they won't.

Palin is guilty of it. Obama is guilty of it, Hundreds of politicians are guilty of it in the slimy campaigns they all just ran and will run again. I don't think I've seen as many guns in political ads as I saw in the last go-round.

And so long as we sit back and play the "you better not blame MY guy" game, it's not going to change.

People would much rather avoid the issue than accept any potential responsibility for it. These loons are out there. And they may react at anything, who knows. But if we don't at least LOOK at the possibility that all the violent analogies in this climate of fang and claw politics could cause harm, if we simply dismiss it because someone called someone else's favorite candidate a name... then how can we expect it to ever change?

I don't think it would be asking TOO much to simply try and remove the cross hairs, the enemy labels, the violent imagery that the politicians and their mouthpieces use to stir up the anger we all know they use? Is it too much to ask that they do not turn everything done by the other side into the worst apocalypse imaginable.. that every piece of legislation is going to destroy your country, that every single thing the other guy says is not only wrong, but should be eradicated?

It's like cussing. We can all easily make any point we need to make without F words, S words, etc. we all know when that sort of thing is appropriate and when it's not, and we have these same unspoken rules for a lot of things. What's the difference of them just watching their language in terms of using violent analogies and imagery? It's not like it would be hard, and we'd never know if it dissuaded anyone from going loon like this guy.. but isn't it at least possible that if the rancor wasn't at such a fever pitch that yesterday's events might not have happened?

~Bang

[shk75]

The bullet went from the back of the left side of her head through the front side. It traversed the entire left hemisphere of the brain and she is now on a ventilator in a medical induced coma. They have removed the entire left side of her skull to alleviate the swelling. She has been responsive and her prognosis has been termed as cautiously optimistic.

[jnhay]

That's what I saw on the news when they were talking to a Doctor. Supposedly the part of the brain hit had nothing to do with the most vital parts of her system and motor skills. The Doctor said she should be able to rehab her way back to a normal life. She might have to take seizure medication. The doctor said it was a miracle how this turned out. The bullet exited the brain, so it didn't further complicate the surgery. It didn't hit any arteries or vessels to cause massive hemorrhaging. The Doctor said it was divine intervention.

Damn, that is a miracle for her. She puts 50 cent to shame.

That's because you're drawing the wrong parallel. The Doom thing didn't provoke Columbine, however, it's pretty undeniable that years of bullying did have an impact. Likewise, you can look at the language that's prevalent today and draw parallels. When on a daily basis you call someone "enemy, traitor, nazi, socialist," and demand that we must, "take this country back, stop them at all costs, prevent them from destroying the Constitution, instituting death panels" and literally a thousand other verbal assaults... it can have an effect.

Now, you and I are strong enough and smart enough to filter most of that out, but even we fall prey to it at times as we repeat "talking points or believe in the evil of the "mainstream media" or the tyrant Pelosi.

These things like drip torture can wear people down. You see it in ES conversations each day.

I think all that talk needs to stop mostly because it's ludicrous and makes whoever is saying it look like an idiot. I don't think that it should be looked at as even a secondary cause of this tragedy because I believe it totally pales in comparison to the real reasons for this event, but we can agree to disagree here (unlike all these dumb politicians! ha!). It kinda reminds me of South Park, and how they misdiagnose the real reasons for every problem they have. Let's not build a wall, because the Mongolians aren't the problem.

[DjTj]

Let us be honest

If Jared Lee Loughner was a Muslim, wouldn't we be calling him a terrorist at this point?

Of course, And if he were Hispanic, we'd be calling him illegal. If he were Asian, we'd be asking whether his parents pushed him too hard. If he were black, we'd be blaming rap music.

But he's white, so we're going with the Republican/crazy angle.

The stories write themselves.

[Thinking Skins]

Blaming Palin specifically isn't right.

Performers have to be responsible to their audience. If we continue to encourage the level of vitriol we've got, it'll only get worse, then we can expect more of this sort of thing.

And then we can argue about it again, Maybe the sides will be reversed, and maybe they won't. But the fact is publiuc speakers have to take into account what it is they're saying to the public. If we don't ask them to cool it, they won't.

I really disagree with that. I mean, I'm all for free thought and I think people should only limit themselves to the point where they are not comfortable with what they're saying. I mean, taking a more abstract approach, if I teach cryptography and how to hide information or break passwords, am I responsible if my students go out and hack into the pentagon? Those students are responsible for their actions. If I talk about "The Count of Monte Cristo" and he gets from it information about how to poison people, then am I held liable when he kills somebody?

There is an art to political rhetoric. And just like any artist, there are things that some people are not going to like. There is some stuff that may incite other people. But if my purpose is not to incite, then we can't just act like any political rhetoric that paints the picture of war is on the same level as yelling fire in a crowded theater.

[thebluefood]

"Damn, that is a miracle for her. She puts 50 cent to shame."

If she survives, she'll probably be the first congresswoman to become a gansta rapper. She's a badass for surviving this long.

[Burgold]

I think those who are pointing out possible effects from the barrage of hyper partisanship and hate aren't trying to absolve the shooter or even blame the Palin's, Coulters, Rush's, Olberman's, Beck's, Hannity's, etc. of the world, but rather make a plea for accountability and responsibility in the rhetoric and type of language we choose.

Those who think it impossible must not believe that peer pressure has any influence on behavior or that every company that has paid an advertiser to influence consumer decisions is a dummy. It is unquestionable that what we hear and see influences us. We are still responsible for what we do, but that does not mean that the environment has no effect nor does it mean that we shouldn't be careful about the environments we create. There's a reason you don't cuss around your baby and try not to fight with your wife in front of your kids.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the power of a 24 hour cycle of hatred can have on a human psyche.

[IHOPSkins]

.....But looking at the violence laced rhetoric that consists of political dialog these days, and how it might affect a mentally disturbed person.. I see nothing wrong with discussing that.

Two Questions

If we DIDN'T have violence laced rhetoric....would we still see violence?

If violence is increased with violent speach.....how much restraint should we exercise...(if any and with whom?)

[GoSkins561]

Blaming Palin specifically isn't right.

~Bang

Great points, but how many people heard of Palins "crosshairs" before this tradegy? And why are people so quick to assume this guy has even seen her cross hair ads? Usually stuff like this, especially from Palin makes a thread on ES, did it at least make ES?

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Of course, And if he were Hispanic, we'd be calling him illegal. If he were Asian, we'd be asking whether his parents pushed him too hard. If he were black, we'd be blaming rap music.

But he's white, so we're going with the Republican/crazy angle.

The stories write themselves.

So sad, but so true.

[Bang]

Two Questions

If we DIDN'T have violence laced rhetoric....would we still see violence?

If violence is increased with violent speach.....how much restraint should we exercise...(if any and with whom?)

Who knows?

Why not just cool it and find out? What is there to lose?

Is it really that hard to do to expect a bit more civility?

~Bang

[killerbee99]

Just don't understand when preaching hate became so commom....it got ramped up since 2008, hell I know a couple of threads where people had concerns the vitrol was hitting high levels.....sigh.....If only certain "groups" would just tone it down....Such a beautiful woman, probably damaged for life.....may God watch over her

[IHOPSkins]

.....Is it really that hard to do to expect a bit more civility?.....

No

It takes real leadership...someone to BREAK the mold

Statesman

[jnhay]

Who knows?

Why not just cool it and find out? What is there to lose?

Is it really that hard to do to expect a bit more civility?

~Bang

Because having your party represented through the president is more important than anything else. It's an extremely easy thing to do, but they wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't effective.

[Bang]

Great points, but how many people heard of Palins "crosshairs" before this tradegy? And why are people so quick to assume this guy has even seen her cross hair ads? Usually stuff like this, especially from Palin makes a thread on ES, did it at least make ES?

Well, we all know the fringers and hardcores will spin this as fast as they can.

Navy Dave worrying over DailyKos' reaction is pointless, we know what it's going to be, as we know what FreeRepublic's will be, etc.

They'll just look to point fingers.

I like to think we here are a bit more in control of our faculties, and maybe can see beyond the partisan stuff that will guide these arguments.

I'd just like to see everyone tell these rabble-rousers that we've collectively had enough of every issue being drawn out as doomsday-esque lines in the sand.

Politics should be passionate and contentious, but we can be a bit more civil and a bit more responsible with our words.

And by 'we" I mean the United States as a whole. From the President on down to me and you and everyone in between.

It's not about living in fear of setting off the crazies, It's about recognizing that maybe if the country wasn't constantly at it's own throat, there might not be as many reasons to be crazy.

~Bang

[killerbee99]

The Director of the FBI coming up on conference soon....

[Bang]

No

It takes real leadership...someone to BREAK the mold

Statesman

I think it's exactly the opposite. Leadership comes from you, and me, and burgold, and Navy dave, and everyone. They work for US. I we tell them this is unacceptable, then they maybe listen. But if we just sit back and tacitly approve of it by allowing it while waiting for people who pander for a living to change?

Nothing will change. We'll just go round and round.

So many of us agree with it in many forms that they use it. If there's one thing that's true, politicians will not use slogans or imagery that doesn't work, and they exhaust many resources to try and be sure it will work before they use it.

WE break the mold. WE tell them to cool it on the violent rhetoric. WE stop encouraging them and defending them when they do.

~Bang

[Burgold]

No

It takes real leadership...someone to BREAK the mold

Statesman

No, it doesn't. It takes each of us to make a decision for ourselves. You don't need the government to tell you how to act, think, or behave. You make that decision. In the media, the reporter/writer makes that decision and it is then shaped by the editor, producer, sponsors, and viewers.

BUT you don't need a leader. You need you.

[NavyDave]

Just don't understand when preaching hate became so commom....it got ramped up since 2008, hell I know a couple of threads where people had concerns the vitrol was hitting high levels.....sigh.....If only certain "groups" would just tone it down....Such a beautiful woman, probably damaged for life.....may God watch over her

Yeah preaching God #$% America really did ramp up hate in 2008 but was ignored by most of the media. And certain groups cough unions showing up at a banking person's house scaring the heck out of his young Son or SEIU members beating up a black vendor because he wasn't acting Black because he interacted with Taxed Enough Already members.

[killerbee99]

I say...2 plainsclothes security official for every state representative.....shouldn't cost much and should provide good security

---------- Post added January-9th-2011 at 01:05 PM ----------

FBI Director Meuller coming on right now

[RansomthePasserby]

Funny I don't see you mentioning KOS which both targeted and put a bullseye on her

Remember the Blue dogs are traitors and should be removed meme?

Time for a break.

Which IS interesting, considering Laughner's classmate claims he 1) was liberal and 2) after meeting Giffords in the 07-08 time frame, he stated "she is an idiot."

[NavyDave]

“Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars. Because if a bullet cost five thousand dollar, we wouldn't have any innocent bystander .”

~ Chris Rock

And continuation of Obama's anti offshore drillling policy because 5 dollar a gallon gas will reduce the number of drive by shootings Chris Rock originally enhanced by Navydave.

[Mooka]

The questions that need answered are how did he get the weapon? If its was provided to him by someone else or left unsecured so that he could get his hands on it, the person or persons responsible should be held accountable.

In Arizona? People are bored. Tons of guns around.

[LD0506]

I think it's exactly the opposite. Leadership comes from you, and me, and burgold, and Navy dave, and everyone. They work for US. I we tell them this is unacceptable, then they maybe listen. But if we just sit back and tacitly approve of it by allowing it while waiting for people who pander for a living to change?

Nothing will change. We'll just go round and round.

So many of us agree with it in many forms that they use it. If there's one thing that's true, politicians will not use slogans or imagery that doesn't work, and they exhaust many resources to try and be sure it will work before they use it.

WE break the mold. WE tell them to cool it on the violent rhetoric. WE stop encouraging them and defending them when they do.

~Bang

Beauty, thank you for that Bang. Doesn't this sound exactly like what happened in Egypt, something that people were absolutely gushing over?

Unless and until WE take responsibility for our part, our enabling, our support (even the tacit kind by our silence), the lunacy shall continue.

No good can ever come from the mean-spirited, short-sighted adversarial politics we have lived with for a generation. What happened in Az is an extension of a lot of other very public acts that have been endorsed by both sides and everyone else in between.

[Bliz]

And continuation of Obama's anti offshore drillling policy because 5 dollar a gallon gas will reduce the number of drive by shootings Chris Rock originally enhanced by Navydave.

8 posts from you in this thread, 7 of them dedicated to ****ing about liberals or saying "yeah but dems are just as bad!", and one about how the shooter didn't believe in God, in reply to a comment about him going to hell. Nothing about a prayer for her and her family (or those of the other victims). Not even a "The death penalty is too good for this insane SOB. Killing a 9 year old kid and a federal judge (among others) and attempting to assassinate a congressmen? Lock him in solitary and throw away the key (except for the occasional visit from a guard with a nightstick and a bad attitude)."

It's sad how quickly we skip past the important parts, and focus on the bs politicizing