Another Scool shooting, this time closer to home: St. Mary's MD

[TheGreatBuzz]

5 minutes ago, Metalhead said:

As I said, people are told and believe that using a gun on others will solve their problem. I see it and hear it every damn day from the rural area and from conservative coworkers. I'm tired of the false macho "I'm tough becuase I have a gun" crap. That right there is your mental illness.

Who is telling them this though?  I don't have kids and have been out of school for a while but from what I hear, there is a lot more focus on non-violent solutions, anti/bullying, etc than when I was a kid.  I get movies and video games but I kinda feel like that is a cop out excuse.  

[visionary]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I haven't done a ton of research on all the different shooters.  Are you talking about them committing domestic violence prior to a shooting or being on the receiving end of it when they are younger?

The first part, though I would not be surprised to see the second in there as well if you dig deep.  

[Zguy28]

I knew the shooter and family. I’m in stunned disbelief. He was so nice and shy. Great parents. 

[LadySkinsFan]

10 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I haven't done a ton of research on all the different shooters.  Are you talking about them committing domestic violence prior to a shooting or being on the receiving end of it when they are younger?

 

It could be both. We are seeing boys/men who think they are entitled to having a girl/woman, entitled to sexual favors. It's like patriarchy on steroids. If they were subject to violence when a child, some may think that's the way to be in the world. Although some go the other way and never are abusive.

 

We as a society don't do enough to discourage violence, don't treat it like the social disease that it is.

[TheGreatBuzz]

6 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

I knew the shooter and family. I’m in stunned disbelief. He was so nice and shy. Great parents. 

I appreciate you sharing this.  It makes me wonder even more what it is in a persons head that makes them do this.  It would be easier to understand if you said he had bad parents.  Knowing that isn't the case creates more questions.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Why is it that boys and men are committing these crimes? That's the real question that no one is keying on. 

 

Girls and women aren't committing these crimes. 

 

Well I think they're more exposed to (including, but not limited to, participation in) violence. I think there's an element of... not sure how to word this so I'll do the best I can... thinking you're entitled to a certain life, or certain things from the world, and then feeling as though you've been betrayed by society when you don't get it... something like that.

 

Add in just good old fashioned racism and xenophobia.

 

It's impossible to deny that there's a certain demographic that seems to do it much more than the others.

 

We don't like to talk about it though. Even when young white male isn't the demographic in question.

[SkinInsite]

Nice guy syndrome, sorry fellas sometimes the girl does prefer the douche bag with the six pack. 

[Zguy28]

13 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Who is telling them this though?  I don't have kids and have been out of school for a while but from what I hear, there is a lot more focus on non-violent solutions, anti/bullying, etc than when I was a kid.  I get movies and video games but I kinda feel like that is a cop out excuse.  

Its not a cop out when its a virtual baby sitter and the kid spends more time on it than doing just about anything else besides school work. It's like that old saying... you are what you eat. Well, you are what you intake. Fill your mind with virtual violence constantly and your gonna be warped or desensitized by it over time. I speak in generalities. Your mileage may vary. We are quick to lay the blame for violence on abuse, but when it comes to video games or movies, well they make money and entertain us, so don't cast any blame their way at all. People who defend video games or movies that glorify violence as no big deal or who defend porn, remind me of NRA supporters.

[grego]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

Well I think they're more exposed to (including, but not limited to, participation in) violence. I think there's an element of... not sure how to word this so I'll do the best I can... thinking you're entitled to a certain life, or certain things from the world, and then feeling as though you've been betrayed by society when you don't get it... something like that.

 

Add in just good old fashioned racism and xenophobia.

 

It's impossible to deny that there's a certain demographic that seems to do it much more than the others.

 

We don't like to talk about it though. Even when young white male isn't the demographic in question.

 

 

I don't know of it's the case that mass shooters (not sure about actual school shooters) are disproportionately white. 

This may be an example of what we think not quite matching what actually is, not unlike police shootings. 

Here's a recent article from slate about mass shooting demographics and misconceptiona. (I haven't looked at it critically yet as far as factual errors or misrepresentations so it could be wrong) 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/10/what_the_white_mass_shooter_myth_gets_right_and_wrong_about_killers_demographics.html

 

Mass Shooters Aren’t Disproportionately White

Where the myth came from, and what it gets right and wrong about the demographics of mass killings.

 

As for why are men more violent than women, this is a good article. Some nurture possibly. Definitely lots of nature. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-aggressivus/201409/male-aggression%3famp#ampshare=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/homo-aggressivus/201409/male-aggression

[tshile]

41 minutes ago, grego said:

 

I don't know of it's the case that mass shooters (not sure about actual school shooters) are disproportionately white. 

This may be an example of what we think not quite matching what actually is, not unlike police shootings. 

 

I feel like school shootings are. Mass shooters doesn't really seem to (Though the specific demographic seems to link to motives more often than not, at least as I recall)

[LD0506]

3 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I figured someone would say it was a way to avoid talking about gun control which I why I specifically put that caveat in my first post.  The fact that the politicians won't do anything about it shouldn't prevent us from having a honest discussion here. 

Yea, the GOP sucks.  Got that.  You know what else the GOP prevents?  Gun control.  Yet we still discuss it.

 

I thought some here may actually think a discussion about why this happens BESIDES guns would we worthwhile.  Perhaps I was mistaken.

That's what you got from that?

Seriously?

 

There needs to be some substantial, professional, clinical examination of the issue, that very one you pointed out. A view that I personally agree with, this is about more than guns. But whether it rubs yer fur the wrong way or not, the Rs have taken a very clear stance against that very thing. How does that somehow translate to me taking a shot?

Answer: it doesn't

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 minute ago, LD0506 said:

That's what you got from that?

Seriously?

 

There needs to be some substantial, professional, clinical examination of the issue, that very one you pointed out. A view that I personally agree with, this is about more than guns. But whether it rubs yer fur the wrong way or not, the Rs have taken a very clear stance against that very thing. How does that somehow translate to me taking a shot?

Answer: it doesn't

And the GOP blocking studies doesn't keep us from pontificating about our thoughts.  Do you have a thought to add about the cause?

[LD0506]

Well I'm a life support system for a mouth so I'm sure I could bloviate far beyond anyones ability to give a ****, but I think in order to even begin to fix anything you HAVE TO gather accurate data. We are long overdue for indepth studies on the root cause(s) of our national gun fetish and these all too common outbursts that kill people.

Nonpartisan

Not predetermined

No agendas from anyone

A genuine pragmatic attempt to DO something

But we can't even begin, we not only cannot take a single step but we are constrained from even looking for footing.

[TheGreatBuzz]

@LD0506 That sounds like a long winded dodge at making your own guess.  Why do you think these people find this to be an appropriate response?  Yes there should be studies.  There aren't though.  yes there should be more gun control.  There isn't.  But that doesn't stop up from discussing our opinions here.

[Gibbit]

6 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I think it's also time to look for other root causes to these events.  NOTE:  I'm not saying gun control isn't an issue, only that we have beat that horse.  I'm talking about issues IN ADDITION TO gun control.  

 

My theory (and it is just a theory, I'm open to being wrong) is we are seeing side effects of "every kids gets a trophy" mindset.  Are kids not being taught enough to deal with the rough parts of life?  From what I have heard, it sounds like this is a lover spat gone horribly wrong.  Why is it that a kid getting dumped (or whatever the trigger was) feels like shooting people is the appropriate response?  What is driving these people in general to think mass shooting or whatever level of violence is how they should deal with the issues?  I'm sure it isn't JUST the too easy access to firearms.   

Ive tried to put my finger on it, but I think its just kids growing up in the age of information. If some bullied kid is thinking some f'd up ****, it isn't difficult for him to find a place on the internet to nurture and feed those F'd up thoughts. Add in all the violence in media and general downward spiral of society

 

Our worlds were so small growing up compared to now

[Springfield]

How did he get the gun?  The owner of the gun used in this crime bears responsibility.

[Commander PK]

4 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I thought some here may actually think a discussion about why this happens BESIDES guns would we worthwhile.  Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

 

You are mistaken...trust me.  

 

 

[Long n Left]

7 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I think it's also time to look for other root causes to these events.  NOTE:  I'm not saying gun control isn't an issue, only that we have beat that horse.  I'm talking about issues IN ADDITION TO gun control.  

 

My theory (and it is just a theory, I'm open to being wrong) is we are seeing side effects of "every kids gets a trophy" mindset.  Are kids not being taught enough to deal with the rough parts of life?  From what I have heard, it sounds like this is a lover spat gone horribly wrong.  Why is it that a kid getting dumped (or whatever the trigger was) feels like shooting people is the appropriate response?  What is driving these people in general to think mass shooting or whatever level of violence is how they should deal with the issues?  I'm sure it isn't JUST the too easy access to firearms.   

Maybe because it's what they see on TV every week or so? 

 

Look ok for all the alternative causes you'd like, but there is only ONE cause that delivers the possibility/probability of immediate and, too often, numerous lives lost.

[Bang]

7 hours ago, YoungTheShow1984 said:

 

I normally like the baynet, but having that kids face plastered on the page, along with a report saying there were 2 fatalities, really rubs me the wrong way. 

Sorry man, news is news. It's the world we're in. I appreciate you feel that way, it's an uncomfortable situation all the way around. In the community some folks want to know, others are having the worst day of their lives today. It's a balance we have to walk a lot,

Nothing was intended to be offensive, or to exploit the situation. It's our community, we feel we do our best at covering it fairly.

Speaking for all of our staff, we always listen to what our readers have to say, positive or negative. So thanks for speaking up, sincerely. Often when people comment on our stories on our pages or our social media pages it sparks debates that can serve our community, and helps guide our focus as a news organization.

 

~Bang

[Renegade7]

7 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Why is it that boys and men are committing these crimes? That's the real question that no one is keying on. 

 

Girls and women aren't committing these crimes. 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say its closely related to why men are more likely to commit suicide then women.

[PeterMP]

12 hours ago, grego said:

 

 

I don't know of it's the case that mass shooters (not sure about actual school shooters) are disproportionately white. 

This may be an example of what we think not quite matching what actually is, not unlike police shootings. 

Here's a recent article from slate about mass shooting demographics and misconceptiona. (I haven't looked at it critically yet as far as factual errors or misrepresentations so it could be wrong) 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/10/what_the_white_mass_shooter_myth_gets_right_and_wrong_about_killers_demographics.html

 

Mass Shooters Aren’t Disproportionately White

Where the myth came from, and what it gets right and wrong about the demographics of mass killings.

 

Just to be clear though, while I know how the FBI defines it and your link talks about killing public spaces vs. private, when people say most mass shooters are white this is what they mean:

 

"But Lankford found some nuance in the data, particularly when it came to the most horrific massacres. According to the study, white and Asian mass murderers perpetrated crimes with more victims, on average, and they were more likely to carry out those crimes in public places. Nearly one-fourth of the white mass murderers and one-fifth of the Asians in the group engaged in public killings. Among the black mass murderers, this proportion was just 6 percent. Lankford suggests the relative whiteness of public killings, in particular, could indeed result from structural advantage and “aggrieved entitlement.” At the same time, he says, those public crimes get far more media coverage than any others—a factor that might reinforce the false belief that mass murder is a mostly white phenomenon."

 

When most people talk about mass killers, they are talking about people that kill lots of people in a public space.  Based on your own link, that type of murder is biased in white (and Hispanics, but less even in Hispanics).  That's what gets the news and that's what people talk about mostly as a mass murder or killing.

 

This thread and the similar threads we've had here about mass killings aren't about drug deals that went bad and people ended up dead.  They're about people (attempting to) killing lots of people in a public space.

 

We need to have more than one conversation.  The conversation about your average mass killer in the context of killing lots of people in a public space is a different conversation than the conversation about killings when a drug deal goes bad, there is a drug war, etc.  Part of the first one should certainly be why is this type of killing more common among whites.

[justice98]

16 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Why is it that boys and men are committing these crimes? That's the real question that no one is keying on. 

 

Girls and women aren't committing these crimes. 

 

Some comedian also brought that up after Florida, and it didn't get any traction.  But you're right, it's not a coincidence. 

 

I think when you kinda try to make boys less aggressive, you get pushback about wussification and frankly, there's probably some homophobia sprinkled in there.  It starts young, and by the time they're teenagers and young men, it's too late.

[grego]

53 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Just to be clear though, while I know how the FBI defines it and your link talks about killing public spaces vs. private, when people say most mass shooters are white this is what they mean:

 

"But Lankford found some nuance in the data, particularly when it came to the most horrific massacres. According to the study, white and Asian mass murderers perpetrated crimes with more victims, on average, and they were more likely to carry out those crimes in public places. Nearly one-fourth of the white mass murderers and one-fifth of the Asians in the group engaged in public killings. Among the black mass murderers, this proportion was just 6 percent. Lankford suggests the relative whiteness of public killings, in particular, could indeed result from structural advantage and “aggrieved entitlement.” At the same time, he says, those public crimes get far more media coverage than any others—a factor that might reinforce the false belief that mass murder is a mostly white phenomenon."

 

 

I think we agree that the data suggests that white men account for more deaths per shooting, as opposed to number of events (and that's a distinction worth researching).

 

It would be interesting to see if this was an anomaly or a pattern, where one or two events - like Vegas, or 9 11 for radical Islamic terrorism,  where the numbers or fatalities are so far from the norm it dramatically skews the numbers. And these huge events and their coverage (because they are so massive) affect our perception. 

[LD0506]

13 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

@LD0506 That sounds like a long winded dodge at making your own guess.  Why do you think these people find this to be an appropriate response?  Yes there should be studies.  There aren't though.  yes there should be more gun control.  There isn't.  But that doesn't stop up from discussing our opinions here.

 

Damn

 

Tried to "talk" via phone, I don't know how y'all do it, it was excrutiating

 

"A long winded dodge"? Long winded maybe but I am not by nature dodgesque, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not get into some acrimonious back-n-forth.

 

You pose a seemingly simple point that does not have even a remotely simple answer. The "someone cracked and shot up _______" thing is a symptom of much larger societal currents and the loss of the (largely mythical) "good old days/good old ways" support structures we used to have.

 

Not that long ago historically we were rather homogenous in terms of standard of living, access to amenities, etc., and the disparities from top to bottom in society were understandable, easily grasped whether or not your liked them. The agrarian/rural elements predominated and school/church/barn raisings sufficed to keep some connection alive and allow people to see their place in the world. Of course there was a TON of underlying bull**** vis-a-vis racism, class/economic disparity, etc., but overall there was this common narrative, and it worked for the most part.

 

Fast forward a couple of generations and that agrarian/rural demographic is greatly lessened and we've seen a rise of numerous divergent and competing strains of "modern" -urban/suburban/white collar, whatever- demographics that did so without any underlying ethos or binding rituals. They own and control and use the technology of marketing and communication and broadcast every second their (so-called) superiority to those not blessed to be paying 2 grand/month to live in a box in a concrete jungle. We see even now the questioning of younger generations raised in this asking "Is that all there is?", their version of the eternal religious/spiritual "Who are we and why are we here?"

 

The fabric of society that we used to share is ragged, frayed, torn to bits in places and frequently mocked as remnant of some out-of-date/out-of-style tastelessness of lesser ancestors. So many of those threads of daily life that used to be woven into it are gone, dismissed without understanding their importance to the tensile strength of the fabric. Is it really any wonder that millions of our citizens choose to throw their lives down a blackhole of drug despair? Or that others reach a breaking point far too soon with no help to hold on? Or even that others with more resources choose to wall themselves off in material comfort and curl a lip at those barbarians that don't, making no distinction between don't and can't?

 

And you make some curt request for a glib answer, some simple silver bullet fix that will mystically, magically make it all better? And even worse, you expect me to pull it out of MY ass?

 

I figure I am at the very least willing and able to admit my own ignorance and limitations here and accept that I don't know, but have some flickering faith that somewhere, someone better trained, better equipped, better funded might just be able to move us towards some understanding?

 

But hey, shy I'm not, so here's my Twitter-shallow assessment of it. We as a species have lost the impetus given by sheer survival needs. We are a victim of our own success, food is too readily available, shelter and comfort come by too easily. As with anything gained too easily you don't value it. IMO the direct simple answer to most of our woes is some cataclysmic ELE that adjusts everyones perspective away from bull**** and back to the core elements of need, not just want.

 

Quote

Well I'm a life support system for a mouth so I'm sure I could bloviate far beyond anyones ability to give a ****,

 

Can't say I didn't warn ya.............

[Larry]

19 hours ago, tshile said:

That's because they (people in the government) don't...

 

The bump stocks thing was easy. Yet it didn't happen until the last school shooting, and they were like "oh yeah, that bump stock thing we never did anything about, lets do that so they leave us alone"

 

It's not going to be an issue until the voters make it one; and not with their tweets, but with their actual votes.

 

 

And we've already seen, it's not even "let's do that so they leave us alone".  It's "Let's say we'll think about it for a couple of days, till they lose interest, and then not even implement that."