Burgold

Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

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23 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

There are many who would disagree. 

 

I think that's one of the questions, and I don't know that the business owners have the right to force them to stand. Believe it or not just because you pay someone doesn't mean that you get to dictate their every move, even when they're on the clock and ESPECIALLY if they have a specifically negotiated contract. If they have a contract then as the business owner you only have the right to demand adherence to the contract, and if they don't then you have a choice to make. 

I agree.  I don’t know if they do or not.   But I bet they would be called upon to make players stop if any of them started making nazi salutes during the anthem.  Rightfully so. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I agree.  I don’t know if they do or not.   But I bet they would be called upon to make players stop if any of them started making nazi salutes during the anthem.  Rightfully so. 

 

 

 

Not necessarily!

 

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34 minutes ago, grego said:

 

i think there are couple of things that this position gets wrong- how good (or bad) Keap was his last 2ish years as a starter, (some of his passing stats are the worst or among the worst in the league over that time). how his style is not ideal for a backup, and the crap in terms of distraction a team has to deal with if they sign him. not to mention the financial hit a team would likely take or the other baggage- the gf tweet probably put a nail in the coffin of his nfl career. as an owner, i would stay away based on that as much as anything. put it all together, and what do you get?

 

i say this while taking your side in terms of can he or should he be able to do it and thinking some good will come of it. 

 

 

why did you put service in quotes?

 

I see where you're coming from and I agree to a certain extent.  Personally, I think Kap had no social conscious until he started dating her and thats when this all started.  I'm not saying I don't think he believes in what he's doing, I just think he was influenced by her.  But yeah, she's not doing him any favors.  

 

Fully agree that a team signing him would be a massive distraction, ESPN would be monitoring every single thing, every single day.  We'd get updates on which way Kap would be leaning when he'd fart on the bench. 

 

I just think it's ****ed up that someone gets busted for a federal crime and is back in the league in a few weeks.  Kap didn't break any laws.  

 

He's not the best QB, for sure.  But man, a team like the Bills with Peterman and rookie Josh Allen look pathetic at the QB position.  He couldn't be worse.

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28 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I agree.  I don’t know if they do or not.   But I bet they would be called upon to make players stop if any of them started making nazi salutes during the anthem.  Rightfully so. 

 

 

Agreed, but let's be clear that this isn't an equivalent.

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4 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I see where you're coming from and I agree to a certain extent.  Personally, I think Kap had no social conscious until he started dating her and thats when this all started.  I'm not saying I don't think he believes in what he's doing, I just think he was influenced by her.  But yeah, she's not doing him any favors.  

 

Fully agree that a team signing him would be a massive distraction, ESPN would be monitoring every single thing, every single day.  We'd get updates on which way Kap would be leaning when he'd fart on the bench. 

 

I just think it's ****ed up that someone gets busted for a federal crime and is back in the league in a few weeks.  Kap didn't break any laws.  

 

He's not the best QB, for sure.  But man, a team like the Bills with Peterman and rookie Josh Allen look pathetic at the QB position.  He couldn't be worse.

 

 

i agree with that. I think alot of it comes to the system. if he were aaron rodgers, he'd have a job. i haven't seen anything that indicates Keap can be effective as a pocket passer (this is where his numbers are really, really bad), so you need to change your system. Keap could be great in a specific system, but he is likely not much better if he is at all compared to the petermans of the world as a pocket passer, but even if he were just standard backup level good, a team has to take on the **** storm around him. teams dont take on **** storms unless your abilities make up for the **** storm. 

 

i think thats why dez bryant doesnt have a job- he's good enough to play on a team, no doubt. but the way he left dallas and threw his team under the bus was pretty ****ed up. at this point, he looks like a delusional asshole and teams dont want to deal with that. 

 

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17 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Agreed, but let's be clear that this isn't an equivalent.

The actions aren’t.  The owners ability or inability to prevent them are definitely equivalent. 

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4 hours ago, scruffylookin said:

 

As as long as we continue to spiral down as a country where more and more we act as if military “service” makes one more of a citizen than those who have not, the anthem and all the militarism that goes along with it now a days, has become political. 

 

This part I agree with.  Its nauseating.  Lets face it, a large percentage of the military is not joining out of loyalty or duty.

 

I am not hating on anyone in the military for sure, it is a noble and worthwhile job or career.  Im just tired of constantly being bombarded with veteran this and veteran that.  Not all veterans are the same.  I have a friend who took shrapnel at the dmz in vietnam.  I also have a friend who joined the army after high school and learned how to be an air traffic controller on uncle sam, so he could get out and work as a civillian.  These are just not the same thing.

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10 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

The actions aren’t.  The owners ability or inability to prevent them are definitely equivalent. 

I don't know that they are.

One is a blatantly racist and historically offensive action, the other is a silent protest against perceived police brutality.

I believe that the owners would be far more empowered to prevent the former as compared to the latter.

4 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

This part I agree with.  Its nauseating.  Lets face it, a large percentage of the military is not joining out of loyalty or duty.

 

I am not hating on anyone in the military for sure, it is a noble and worthwhile job or career.  Im just tired of constantly being bombarded with veteran this and veteran that.  Not all veterans are the same.  I have a friend who took shrapnel at the dmz in vietnam.  I also have a friend who joined the army after high school and learned how to be an air traffic controller on uncle sam, so he could get out and work as a civillian.  These are just not the same thing.

I'm a veteran and I 100% agree with this.

There is a local mom-n-pop gas station near me and on his reader board out front he always has "100% Veteran Owned". Every time I pass it I just think, "Who gives a ****? Do you come to me to sell your house because I'm a veteran or because I know what the **** I'm doing and I'm damn good at my job?"

Well, to be honest I usually just think the first question, the second one is implied.

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Its amazing 

 

A year ago a few of us argued that Kaepernick was being blackballed and a large portion of this forum called us crazy or dismissed it. A year later and people think different. That makes me happy.

 

The Nike success with this campaign shows how disastrously the nfl handled this.

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1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

I don't know that they are.

One is a blatantly racist and historically offensive action, the other is a silent protest against perceived police brutality.

I believe that the owners would be far more empowered to prevent the former as compared to the latter.

I'm a veteran and I 100% agree with this.

There is a local mom-n-pop gas station near me and on his reader board out front he always has "100% Veteran Owned". Every time I pass it I just think, "Who gives a ****? Do you come to me to sell your house because I'm a veteran or because I know what the **** I'm doing and I'm damn good at my job?"

Well, to be honest I usually just think the first question, the second one is implied.

I suppose the contract could be very specific and say that the owners can prevent X but not Y, but I doubt it.

 

Either the owners can or cannot force their employees to adhere to a standard.

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5 hours ago, scruffylookin said:

 

Employers have no right to force an employee to stand for the anthem. Period. And yeah I know the loophole they are trying to use is “you can stay in the locker room until it’s over” bs. 

 

 

As as long as we continue to spiral down as a country where more and more we act as if military “service” makes one more of a citizen than those who have not, the anthem and all the militarism that goes along with it now a days, has become political. 

 

 

First, and I said this earlier, most reports I have read agree the Nfl CAN make them stand.  The argument is if they SHOULD make them stand.  Do you have any legal argument that says otherwise?

 

Also, I to am curious why you put service in quotes.  Thanks.

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The only section that could potentially apply to anthem protests in the rules (not to be confused with the policies) comes under the section on player equipment, uniforms and player appearance. Rule 5, Section 4, Article 8 (found on page 23), deals with "personal messages." Here's how that rule begins:

"Throughout the period on game-day that a player is visible to the stadium and television audience (including in pregame warm-ups, in the bench area, and during postgame interviews in the locker room or on the field), players are prohibited from wearing, displaying, or otherwise conveying personal messages either in writing or illustration, unless such message has been approved in advance by the League office. Items to celebrate anniversaries or memorable events, or to honor or commemorate individuals, such as helmet decals, and arm bands and jersey patches on players’ uniforms, are prohibited unless approved in advance by the League office."

> my thoughts ... how broad do we define "illustration". Clearly kneeling isnt "in writing". The term "illustration", in context of the surrounding language, seems to mean a physical illustration to a jersey, helmet, arm band etc and that would rule out "kneeling" as being included under the term "illustration".

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"during the national anthem, players must stand, face the flag, hold their helmet in their left hand and refrain from talking. "

 

While this language does not appear in the 2017 Official Playing Rules of the National Football League, which is available in its entirety online, it is a part of the game operations manual, which is distributed to all 32 teams, according to NFL spokesperson Brian McCarthy.

 

> my thoughts ... if this is not included in the 4 corners of the CBA, I dont see how it is binding. The CBA is a contract and agreement that was the result of a very detailed negotiation process. If the league didnt include it in the CBA, I dont think they can enforce it in terms of discipline or fines.

 

Including it in a "Game Operation Manual" written by the NFL is not binding on the NFLPA ... unless the CBA has a clause stating players must comply with the "Game Operation Manual" with fine or discipline laid out.

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https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2017/09/25/what-nfl-rule-book-actually-says-national-anthem/699886001/

 

My inconsequential thought right now ... NFL cant force players to stand with fines or discipline. They could ask them nicely.

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2 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

I suppose the contract could be very specific and say that the owners can prevent X but not Y, but I doubt it.

 

Either the owners can or cannot force their employees to adhere to a standard.

I can imagine a contract saying prohibiting racist language and associations that are detrimental to the team's public image.

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