Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[TradeTheBeal!]

A couple of points:

 

Statistics about police killed in the line of duty would seem to present a powerful argument for sensible gun control.  But folks on the far-right seem utterly incapable of interpreting it as such.

 

Nathan Peterman is a starting QB in the NFL.

[LD0506]

1 minute ago, Burgold said:

I sometimes take a contrary view. Since pretty much all Americans are mutts... We're all part of the majority. That said, there are minorities and there are minorities. Jews represent 3% of the country's population. That's a minority esp. as the right gets more and more Christian crazy.

 

Still, it's an invisible and, for the most part, unabused minority.

 

See, I think we're talking in the same direction here, unless you see/accept the entirety of "Americans as mutts" you're in some kinda minority. The ole E Pluribus Unum thing, yanno? We are in the midst of something historically improbable, unprecedented, we are a collective nation very specifically NOT defined by race, geography, language, etc., we are an aggregate of those people willing to buy into the concept of Americans as a people by choice. Everywhere else, down through the millenia, it has always been us and them, in and out, native and not, all that jazz that kinda sorta worked when we were small tribal units struggling to survive the winter, but the conscious underlying framework of this nation made and intentional point to reject that tribalism, it was explicitly stated in the paperwork when they opened the box. Even the intellectual concept of "minority" harkens back to the tribalistic shortsightedness that we were supposed to rise above and move beyond. Anyone that sincerely "gets" America, understands what we are supposed to be doing here is obliged to make that case to those that don't. The whole American experiment demands that you help others to see the beauty and power of E Pluribus Unum, even and especially those that reject it and want to tear it down. This entire Trumptastic ****show is a cry for help and understanding, and a challenge to those that claim to be better than that.

 

But that doesn't mean we can't have some fun with it.........

 

[SemperFi Skins]

I don't get the point of people these days with burning clothes and ****. I am a Veteran and happen to like Nike, Under Armour, Reebok, etc, so even if I was upset with the decision, I still wouldn't go burn **** I paid for.... are people just that bored nowadays?

[justice98]

23 minutes ago, zoony said:

This is a well written letter by the FOP.  Everyone wants to talk about CKs right to protest, not what he is actually protesting, and not his actions.  Thats because that is the safe space for CK defenders.  He has a right to protest, and he has.  Not sure why that continues to be the discussion, though I blame the right as much as the left for that one.  Especially the bozo in the white house.

 

Nobody wants to talk about the actual protest.  Actually, nobody wants to talk about anything, the sjw mob just wants to call everyone racist who isnt getting in line.

 

Just keep labeling everyone who disagrees with you as racist, or ignorant, I guess.  Keep minimizing the impact of those words.

 

 

 

I dont agree with that at all.  Kap defenders would LOVE if the topic of conversation was the reason for his protest.  Nobody ever wanted to be talking about the anthem, which is the safe space for Kap critics.  Saves them from addressing the meat of the issue.  Because there are counter stats for the side the FOP wants you to think about.  

4 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

I don't get the point of people these days with burning clothes and ****. I am a Veteran and happen to like Nike, Under Armour, Reebok, etc, so even if I was upset with the decision, I still wouldn't go burn **** I paid for.... are people just that bored nowadays?

 

The joke is, nobody's burning anything of value.  You dont see people burning new stuff or Air Jordans.  lol

[PeterMP]

54 minutes ago, zoony said:

This is a well written letter by the FOP.  Everyone wants to talk about CKs right to protest, not what he is actually protesting, and not his actions.  Thats because that is the safe space for CK defenders.  He has a right to protest, and he has.  Not sure why that continues to be the discussion, though I blame the right as much as the left for that one.  Especially the bozo in the white house.

 

Nobody wants to talk about the actual protest.  Actually, nobody wants to talk about anything, the sjw mob just wants to call everyone racist who isnt getting in line.

 

Just keep labeling everyone who disagrees with you as racist, or ignorant, I guess.  Keep minimizing the impact of those words.

 

 

 

 

While I'm sympathetic to cops and think we should do more to protect them, The National FOP isn't doing its members any good with a press release like that.

 

He didn't give money to her family.  He gave money to an origanization called Assata's Daughter, which doesn't have anything directly to do with her family.  The people that started it aren't even related to her.

 

When you can't get basic facts right in your press releases, you just look bad.

 

(In terms of police safety, why do individual cops even approach cars today?  In an age of red light and speeding cameras and the like, for a minor offense, why doesn't the cop just pull you over, take a picture of the license plate, make a report, turn their lights off letting you go, and then you get a ticket in a few days?  For a major offense or somebody that has had several recent minor offenses, pull you over, call another cop (or two), and wait for more people to come before approaching the car.  It seems to me that the FOP would be better off spending their time dealing with things directly related to cop safety.)

 

**EDIT**

I can't also find where he actually called cops pigs.  He wore "cop pig socks" at one point in time and made this statement about them:

 

"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately."

Edited September 5, 2018 by PeterMP

[CjSuAvE22]

33 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Galdi was trying to push this same idea yesterday, that for some reason, Kap (or anyone else, for that matter) cant have sacrificed unless they were in the military.  Like there's no in between.

There are many people whom outside the military have also sacrificed everything I worded what I meant poorly I should have said he’s made A Sacrifice but has hardly sacrificed everything...as portrayed in the Nike ad he’s part of its amockery of people whom actually did sacrifice everything (JFK MLK Gandhi many good cops that wore blue etc)

Edited September 5, 2018 by CjSuAvE22

[Dancing Bear]

Can't afford Nikes therefore it makes no difference to me.

[zoony]

31 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 The joke is, nobody's burning anything of value.  You dont see people burning new stuff or Air Jordans.  lol

 

Now this is a fact haha

 

People are idiots.  I especially like the ones who are buying nike stuff to burn it

[Destino]

29 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

I still wouldn't go burn **** I paid for.... are people just that bored nowadays?

It’s for social media.  If they called it the “burn your old Nikes Challenge” it would fit right in with the rest of these stunts.  Probably enjoy wider participation too.

 

I like to think that somewhere reps from Footlocker, Champs, and other sneaker shops are meeting to discuss how to get more people to burn their shoes.  

[grego]

28 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

While I'm sympathetic to cops and think we should do more to protect them, The National FOP isn't doing its members any good with a press release like that.

 

He didn't give money to her family.  He gave money to an origanization called Assata's Daughter, which doesn't have anything directly to do with her family.  The people that started it aren't even related to her.

 

When you can't get basic facts right in your press releases, you just look bad.

 

(In terms of police safety, why do individual cops even approach cars today?  In an age of red light and speeding cameras and the like, for a minor offense, why doesn't the cop just pull you over, take a picture of the license plate, make a report, turn their lights off letting you go, and then you get a ticket in a few days?  For a major offense or somebody that has had several recent minor offenses, pull you over, call another cop (or two), and wait for more people to come before approaching the car.  It seems to me that the FOP would be better off spending their time dealing with things directly related to cop safety.)

 

**EDIT**

I can't also find where he actually called cops pigs.  He wore "cop pig socks" at one point in time and made this statement about them:

 

"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of tension and mistrust. I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately."

 

They botched the connection. But I think, for the police, it's a bit of a distinction without a difference. They are named after someone who killed a cop. Police don't like that. 

[zoony]

 

[PeterMP]

50 minutes ago, grego said:

 

They botched the connection. But I think, for the police, it's a bit of a distinction without a difference. They are named after someone who killed a cop. Police don't like that. 

 

She also wasn't convicted of killing a cop.  She was present when a cop was killed.  Nobody actually seems to think she did it.  One officer claims she shot him, but that's not the one that died.

 

She claims she was raising her hands to surrender and got shot.   In their minds, they've named their organization after somebody that has unjustly been harmed and prosecuted.

 

(Nobody disputes that she got shot, that two officers got shot and one died and somebody else was convicted of killing that cop.  She was convicted for aiding and abetting, which given NJ law at the time was a pretty low bar and pretty much knowing the people and being present made her guilty.  (though, that I can see might be a distinction without a difference for the cops, which is why I didn't mention it.  But there's a big difference between giving money to her family and giving money to an organization that is named after her, but not even directly related to her family that focuses on improving black lives in Chicago.  It looks more to me the FOP just flat out lied.)

Edited September 5, 2018 by PeterMP

[grego]

23 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

She also wasn't convicted of killing a cop.  She was present when a cop was killed.  Nobody actually seems to think she did it.  One officer claims she shot him, but that's not the one that died.

 

She claims she was raising her hands to surrender and got shot.   In their minds, they've named their organization after somebody that has unjustly been harmed and prosecuted.

 

(Nobody disputes that she got shot, that two officers got shot and one died and somebody else was convicted of killing that cop.  She was convicted for aiding and abetting, which given NJ law at the time was a pretty low bar and pretty much knowing the people and being present made her guilty.  (though, that I can see might be a distinction without a difference for the cops, which is why I didn't mention it.  But there's a big difference between giving money to her family and giving money to an organization that is named after her, but not even directly related to her family that focuses on improving black lives in Chicago.  It looks more to me the FOP just flat out lied.)

 

 

i agree with a lot of that. as to what actually happened, there are not many survivors who can say, and everyone has their reason to paint their own picture of it. could the police have framed her for shooting a cop? no doubt. i looked into this awhile back and it seemed like she probably did shoot a cop, but there are always questions. according to this FBI page, she was found guilty of it- 

 

Quote

 

At the time, Chesimard was wanted for her involvement in several felonies, including bank robbery. Chesimard and her accomplices opened fire on the troopers. One trooper was wounded and the other was shot and killed execution-style at point-blank range. Chesimard fled the scene, but was subsequently apprehended. One of her accomplices was killed in the shoot-out and the other was also apprehended and remains in jail.

 

In 1977, Chesimard was found guilty of first degree murder, assault and battery of a police officer, assault with a dangerous weapon, assault with intent to kill, illegal possession of a weapon, and armed robbery.

 

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard

 

 of course, if youre hanging with a group known for shooting cops (they are credited with killing 13 cops), robbing banks and hijacking planes, well.....

 

i was actually looking at the wording - family vs just an organization named after her- of the police statement differently. its a worse look, imo, than if it were actual family. you can't choose your parents. however, you can choose your role models. 

 

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, grego said:

 

 

i agree with a lot of that. as to what actually happened, there are not many survivors who can say, and everyone has their reason to paint their own picture of it. could the police have framed her for shooting a cop? no doubt. i looked into this awhile back and it seemed like she probably did shoot a cop, but there are always questions. according to this FBI page, she was found guilty of it- 

 

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard

 

Guilty of what?  Like I said, the cop claims she shot him.  Realistically, in the early 1980s that was enough for conviction.  The first degree murder charge is based on that she was the accomplice to the other killing of the other cop.  She could not have fired a shot, been found to have been an accomplice (aided and abetted) to the killing of the other cop, and that would have carried the first degree murder charge (and the accomplice charge is what seems to have caused the first degree murder charge because nobody seems to claim she shot the cop that died).

 

(And just let me be clear, I'm not trying to argue she was/is a good person, and I wouldn't have named an organization after her, and I've never donated money to Assata's Sisters nor do I plan on ever doing so.  But the FOP by calling her a convicted cop killer (she was convicted of being an accomplice to the killing of a cop) seems to have stretched the truth- but at least in a manner that is reasonable manner.  But then they go onto claim that it is her family that is benefiting from his donation (which suggest that it might be channeled to her) and that he called cops pigs.  Both of  which also aren't really true.  In one press statement, you have 3 questionable (and I'd even say 2 out right incorrect) claims.  That doesn't look good for your membership.  As somebody that has donated to FOPs in the past, I won't be in any hurry to again.)

Edited September 5, 2018 by PeterMP

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

On 9/4/2018 at 6:35 AM, CjSuAvE22 said:

He hasn’t sacrificed squat....Pat Tillman did, unless he puts on a blue uniform for a year than comes out with an unbiased opionion nothing he says or does has any merit imo.

 

And I'm sure if Pat Tilman were alive he would agree that he along with all active military fight for our rights to be able to protest, even if it is kneeling during the National Anthem.  

[Busch1724]

6 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

And I'm sure if Pat Tilman were alive he would agree that he along with all active military fight for our rights to be able to protest, even if it is kneeling during the National Anthem.  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/04/he-would-be-first-kneel-pat-tillman-exploited-attack-kaepernick-biographer-says/?utm_term=.84d557fe0e10

 

From his wife:

 

"The very action of self expression and the freedom to speak from one’s heart — no matter those views — is what Pat and so many other Americans have given their lives for,” she said in a statement.

 

From his biographer:

 

"Pat would have found Kaepernick an extremely admirable person for what he believed in,” Krakauer told The Washington Post. “I have no doubt if he was in the NFL today, he would be the first to kneel. So there is irony about what is going on.”

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

21 hours ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

For those of you not agreeing with the Pat Tillman reference, because he has nothing to do with the current situation yes I agree Tillman has nothing to do with the current debate or subject matter, however he has everything to do with the NFL and sacrifice he was referenced by me mainly because of the nike ad with Kaeps picture and the quote "Believe in something. Even if it means sacrificing everything" Tillman was used as an example of how out of touch nike was with that quote......but yes Tillman has not much to do with the current debate or subject other than that and for the record just because i disagee with Colin Kapernick does not mean im a racist thank you very much. 

 

 

[Gamebreaker]

On 9/4/2018 at 10:05 AM, Kilmer17 said:

That kneeling during the National Anthem in opposition to the US Flag at a football game is not an acceptable place for that protest.

 

It's funny, because the conservatives never find any peaceful protest about this issue acceptable. Clearly, you only want protest that don't put the issue up front and in your face, because you'd much rather ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. Like many white Americans have done for decades.

 

When it's Sunday, while you're relaxing trying to watch football, and you watch more and more players kneeling, you can't ignore it and that pisses you off. 

 

What other reason can there be? The narrative has been it's "disrespectful to the troops", yet when veterans say they don't think it's disrespectful and the fact a veteran told Kaep to do it that way, it's ignored. People who are angry about this simply don't want to address the reason for the protest, and they are angry that these lesser-than Americans have the audacity to complain about anything in "our" country. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 hours ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

There are many people whom outside the military have also sacrificed everything I worded what I meant poorly I should have said he’s made A Sacrifice but has hardly sacrificed everything...as portrayed in the Nike ad he’s part of its amockery of people whom actually did sacrifice everything (JFK MLK Gandhi many good cops that wore blue etc)

 

Taken very literally, yes. Until someone is killed, he or she hasn't made the ultimate sacrifice. However, "everything" is pretty subjective. I would assume that Kaepernick spent a large portion of his life practicing, working out, training, and studying for the opportunity to be a professional football player. Even though he's made money (which is the most common thing I see mocked when "sacrifice" is mentioned with him), he has essentially ruined his chances of living out what was probably a dream of his. In a lot of ways, that's more of a sacrifice than money. He wouldn't have even reached his prime yet, and here he is being the spokesperson for a cause that is important to him. 

 

So, is he dead? No. Is he poor? No. But he has made sacrifices that almost every other professional athlete hasn't and most of us haven't nor ever will. 

 

Edit: I'm learning a little about myself in this thread. My gut instinct over the past year when it comes to Kaepernick has been to roll my eyes and be annoyed. Not because of what he cares about, but just because I didn't know of his intent and it distracted from people talking football. Hearing the anti-Kaepernick narrative over the past couple days and just posting what comes naturally, I've found out that I guess I'm on his side of things...who knew? 

Edited September 5, 2018 by TD_washingtonredskins

[JSSkinz]

4 hours ago, SemperFi Skins said:

I don't get the point of people these days with burning clothes and ****. I am a Veteran and happen to like Nike, Under Armour, Reebok, etc, so even if I was upset with the decision, I still wouldn't go burn **** I paid for.... are people just that bored nowadays?

One thing social media has taught me is that we have a lot of dead luggage in this country and it's only going to get worse, too many stupid people with too much time on their hands.

 

 

 

[spjunkies]

http://www.tmz.com/2018/09/05/black-police-org-kaepernick-nike/

 

The National Black Police Association is applauding Nike for their new ad with Colin Kaepernick -- saying the QB's stance is "is in direct alignment with what law enforcement stands for."

In fact, the NBPA is ripping another major police association -- saying anyone calling for a Nike boycott is just plain wrong. 

As we previously reported, the National Association of Police Organizations fired off a letter to Nike saying the Kaep ad "grossly insults the men and women who really do make sacrifices for the sake of our nation."

NAPO added, "We are calling on all our member officers, their families and friends to join in boycotting all Nike products."

Well, the National Black Police Association could not DISAGREE more -- sending their own letter to Nike praising the company and slamming the other police org. 

"The National Black Police Association is not in agreement with NAPO on this matter, and we strongly condemn their call for police officers and their families to boycott Nike and its products," the letter says. 

"Your inclusion of Mr. Kaepernick in your ads seems appropriate to us. We live in a country where the 1st Amendment is a right of the people."

"The NBPA believes that Mr. Kaepernick's stance is in direct alignment with what law enforcement stands for -- the protection of a people, their human rights, their dignity, their safety, and their rights as American citizens."

"NAPO has shown an adeptness at maintaining the police status quo and the tone in their letter further validates Mr. Kaepernick's concerns, as it undermines the trust that is needed by law enforcement in order for the profession to maintain its legitimacy."

The NBPA believes NAPO's stance "only perpetuates the narrative that police are racist, with no regard, acknowledgment, respect or understanding of the issues and concerns of the African American community."

"For NAPO to presuppose that Mr. Kaepernick has not made sacrifices because he did not die on a battlefield, shows you just how out of touch NAP is with the African American community."

The letter ends ... "We will likely be buying and wearing lots of Nike products in the near future."

[JSSkinz]

10 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

When it's Sunday, while you're relaxing trying to watch football, and you watch more and more players kneeling, you can't ignore it and that pisses you off. 

Pregame for me is making sure my kids need nothing and my wife has ZERO questions to ask me for the next 3 hours, I couldn't tell you the last time I actually watched the pregame anthem and I wonder how many at home viewers actually watch it.

[Hersh]

4 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

A couple of points:

 

Statistics about police killed in the line of duty would seem to present a powerful argument for sensible gun control.  But folks on the far-right seem utterly incapable of interpreting it as such.

 

Nathan Peterman is a starting QB in the NFL.

 

There are lots of police for gun control measure who are totally ignored by the people that "support" them. 

[Gamebreaker]

12 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Pregame for me is making sure my kids need nothing and my wife has ZERO questions to ask me for the next 3 hours, I couldn't tell you the last time I actually watched the pregame anthem and I wonder how many at home viewers actually watch it.

 

My pregame has largely been the same. But the same ppl who didn't stand during the anthem, talked to friends and family while it was being performed, or decided to go take a leak or get some food during it are now incensed over black players taking a knee. 

 

I went to the Skins/Browns game a couple years ago when the protests during the anthem first got started. I had to shake my head at the number of who spent more time looking at who was and wasn't standing than actually paying attention and singing the anthem. If these same people don't want the troops to be disrespected they should be caring about them a lot more often than 2 minutes on a Sunday afternoon. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

My pregame has largely been the same. But the same ppl who didn't stand during the anthem, talked to friends and family while it was being performed, or decided to go take a leak or get some food during it are now incensed over black players taking a knee. 

 

I went to the Skins/Browns game a couple years ago when the protests during the anthem first got started. I had to shake my head at the number of who spent more time looking at who was and wasn't standing than actually paying attention and singing the anthem. If these same people don't want the troops to be disrespected they should be caring about them a lot more often than 2 minutes on a Sunday afternoon. 

 

That's such a broad accusation. I'm sure there's some crossover, but I'm also willing to bet that your average white football fan cares about having his wings, beer, and the game than either side of this debate. I get the sense that the crux of this debate is being fought by the fringe 5% on both sides, with the other 90% of fans more concerned with their favorite team's upcoming game.