Welcome to the Washington Commanders K.J. Henry EDGE, CLEM

[FuriousD]

I’m curious about how Buffalo and regular nickel differ. Apologies for lowering the tone of the discussion somewhat but (as an immigrant to this country) what I learned about football over the years came primarily from playing madden.

 

Madden has Nickel formation in most playbooks and Big Nickel available in some. The principal difference seems to be where the 5th DB lines up. Weak side in Nickel and strong side in Big Nickel. 
 

Is Madden’s Big Nickel equivalent to the Buffalo Nickel you guys are talking about?

[skinny21]

17 minutes ago, FuriousD said:

I’m curious about how Buffalo and regular nickel differ. Apologies for lowering the tone of the discussion somewhat but (as an immigrant to this country) what I learned about football over the years came primarily from playing madden.

 

Madden has Nickel formation in most playbooks and Big Nickel available in some. The principal difference seems to be where the 5th DB lines up. Weak side in Nickel and strong side in Big Nickel. 
 

Is Madden’s Big Nickel equivalent to the Buffalo Nickel you guys are talking about?

Man, I don’t think it’s lowering the discussion at all.  In fact I think it’s the opposite.

 

With that said, I feel like we should all take this topic to the Defense thread…

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

Anyone know what an “explosive effort” is?

[Est.1974]

10 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Anyone know what an “explosive effort” is?

Gimme two minutes 

[Silvernon]

I appreciate the viewpoints, however I think the team would agree with my point of view based off what they have done: reduced the cost of the position. Resources spent elsewhere on D.

 

Barton is a downgrade to Holcomb. We can all essentially agree on that. Meanwhile, the resources spent suggests you want these guys on the field as much as possible:

 

BSJ

Fuller

Forbes

Quan

Curl

Forrest

 

Now, maybe Forbes is the understudy to Fuller this year - and that brings it to 4-2-5. I can understand it, but lots of talk about needing turnovers.

[Commander Chaaarmnder]

1 hour ago, Silvernon said:

 

 

Now, maybe Forbes is the understudy to Fuller this year - and that brings it to 4-2-5. I can understand it, but lots of talk about needing turnovers.

If we’re operating out of that formation the majority of the time, speed isn’t going to do a whole lot if we can’t tackle.  I’d love to see a swarming D, but if it’s a bunch of dudes bouncing off of guys, it’ll be a long year.

[KDawg]

10 hours ago, Silvernon said:

I appreciate the viewpoints, however I think the team would agree with my point of view based off what they have done: reduced the cost of the position. Resources spent elsewhere on D.

 

Barton is a downgrade to Holcomb. We can all essentially agree on that. Meanwhile, the resources spent suggests you want these guys on the field as much as possible:

 

BSJ

Fuller

Forbes

Quan

Curl

Forrest

 

Now, maybe Forbes is the understudy to Fuller this year - and that brings it to 4-2-5. I can understand it, but lots of talk about needing turnovers.

 

So... we're going to get absolutely gashed in the run game because our DEs aren't consistent against playing their role against run and our single LB is expected to make every tackle on the interior by himself?

 

Playing a 4-1-6 a majority of the time would be a really bad decision. 

 

But I suggest we take any defensive convo to the defensive thread. This is a welcome thread for KJ Henry

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Silvernon said:

 

 

Barton is a downgrade to Holcomb. We can all essentially agree on that.

 

 

Definitely not "all".  To me its about a wash.     Similar players stylistically.  PFF grades are almost identical.  126 tackles last year, 2 picks, decent season from Barton.   He's a decent, not a stud.   Ditto Holcomb.

 

The kicker for me is in 2 of the last three seasons, Holcomb has shown that he's not durable.  Hopefully that's a hiccup for him and not a trend.   This LB group is thin.  We can't IMO have one the the starters with shaky durability which has been the case with Holcomb.  

 

 

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

So... we're going to get absolutely gashed in the run game because our DEs aren't consistent against playing their role against run and our single LB is expected to make every tackle on the interior by himself?

 

Playing a 4-1-6 a majority of the time would be a really bad decision. 

 

But I suggest we take any defensive convo to the defensive thread. This is a welcome thread for KJ Henry

 

One of their go to moves in downs where they expect the run is to use 5 man fronts. I expect they'd do it again.  Henry or even Andre Jones might be well suited for that.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Definitely not "all".  To me its about a wash.     Similar players stylistically.  PFF grades are almost identical.  126 tackles last year, 2 picks, decent season from Barton.   He's a decent, not a stud.   Ditto Holcomb.

 

The kicker for me is in 2 of the last three seasons, Holcomb has shown that he's not durable.  Hopefully that's a hiccup for him and not a trend.   This LB group is thin.  We can't IMO have one the the starters with shaky durability which has been the case with Holcomb.  

 

 

 

One of their go to moves in downs where they expect the run is to use 5 man fronts. I expect they'd do it again.  Henry or even Andre Jones might be well suited for that.

Great. 5 guys on the front. Even less guys on the interior to make a tackle. Great way to get gashed on the inside. 
 

No matter how we slice it we need backers.

[Silvernon]

10 hours ago, KDawg said:

Great. 5 guys on the front. Even less guys on the interior to make a tackle. Great way to get gashed on the inside. 
 

No matter how we slice it we need backers.

Henry seems he has more of that ability to stand up. Maybe confusing what Ron said with what he said about Jones, but you can see he has the ability to play some zone and probably has the ability to disrupt routes at the LOS.

 

Henry (or Jones) in the 5 man front will be taking the spot of Barton. Hudson should steal some snaps from him too. That's what I think will happen. We'll see what his snaps totals are through the beginning of the season. 

 

Just watching Ron talk about the DEs, I have never been less certain that Chase Young has a future on the team. KJ was referred to as Ron's guy by Logan, and there's some inkling that KJ and Daniels were who they were deciding between in the 4th. With the draft room video, I think there is some evidence of Ron wanting KJ and agreeing with the advice from the executive that they had to go OL with the pick. Ron just seems pumped about this guy.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Silvernon said:

Henry seems he has more of that ability to stand up. Maybe confusing what Ron said with what he said about Jones, but you can see he has the ability to play some zone and probably has the ability to disrupt routes at the LOS.

 

Henry (or Jones) in the 5 man front will be taking the spot of Barton. Hudson should steal some snaps from him too. That's what I think will happen. We'll see what his snaps totals are through the beginning of the season. 

 

Just watching Ron talk about the DEs, I have never been less certain that Chase Young has a future on the team. KJ was referred to as Ron's guy by Logan, and there's some inkling that KJ and Daniels were who they were deciding between in the 4th. With the draft room video, I think there is some evidence of Ron wanting KJ and agreeing with the advice from the executive that they had to go OL with the pick. Ron just seems pumped about this guy.

A stand up end doesn’t play inside the box linebacker. The positive of a 5 man front is that the hope is someone leaks through and makes a play. The negative is that if no one leaks through there is a single box backer left to make the play or it’s going for 6-8 minimum. 

 

Replacing an inside backer with a defensive end isn’t comforting to me. Replacing a hybrid with a stand up end makes me feel a touch better (and probably another reason they wanted Henry because that was literally what he did in college at Clemson but in a 4-man front vs. a 5 man. But in the 5 man, if he’s in for a hybrid, he is then a  blitz-peel defender on the weak side of the offensive formation. 
 

But playing any set with a single box backer is not a sound strategy unless you are betting on tendencies for them to attack the perimeter vs them attacking the interior. 
 

 

[FrFan]

 

[kingdaddy]

Reading some good things on KJ Henry....hopefully he's a find in the 5th round, along with last years 5th round pick.

[philibusters]

5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Reading some good things on KJ Henry....hopefully he's a find in the 5th round, along with last years 5th round pick.

 

I feel like he is a high floor guy.  His floor to me is a solid rotational piece.  I would be disappointed if he is at a Shaka Toney or William Bradley King level (fighting for one of the last roster spots).  To me, his floor is likely in the range of a James Smith Williams and Efe Obada.   On the other hand, he is 24 years old not a domnant athlete.   He does have some starter upside, but maybe not high end starter upside.

[Warhead36]

31 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I feel like he is a high floor guy.  His floor to me is a solid rotational piece.  I would be disappointed if he is at a Shaka Toney or William Bradley King level (fighting for one of the last roster spots).  To me, his floor is likely in the range of a James Smith Williams and Efe Obada.   On the other hand, he is 24 years old not a domnant athlete.   He does have some starter upside, but maybe not high end starter upside.

I think his absolute best case scenario is Preston Smith who also came into the league at an older age.

[method man]

What is the point of drafting rotation upside guys in the middle rounds when you can go sign an Efe Obada type for the minimum?

[skinny21]

13 hours ago, method man said:

What is the point of drafting rotation upside guys in the middle rounds when you can go sign an Efe Obada type for the minimum?

Interesting question, though I’m not sure if I’m understanding it, lol.  Do you mean a guy who’s ceiling is becoming a rotation guy (ala Toohill, JSW, Obada)?

[method man]

16 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Interesting question, though I’m not sure if I’m understanding it, lol.  Do you mean a guy who’s ceiling is becoming a rotation guy (ala Toohill, JSW, Obada)?

Exactly. It’s more frustration on my end. I ultimately get it and I bet they view Henry as more than a rotational piece, which is why they traded up for him. Again, I believe that 5th round pick would have been perfect for an off ball guy

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

29 minutes ago, method man said:

Exactly. It’s more frustration on my end. I ultimately get it and I bet they view Henry as more than a rotational piece, which is why they traded up for him. Again, I believe that 5th round pick would have been perfect for an off ball guy

 

I think I read they had him rated as a 3rd and when he was still available they moved up for someone higher than everyone else on the board.

 

Henry has potential, there are times he moves better than his testing numbers indicate. We'll find out in training camp I guess if he's ready to grab playing time immediately.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, method man said:

Exactly. It’s more frustration on my end. I ultimately get it and I bet they view Henry as more than a rotational piece, which is why they traded up for him. Again, I believe that 5th round pick would have been perfect for an off ball guy

Fair enough.  I’m of two minds on it.  Longer term we need guys for both spots (starter and depth).  Shorter term, a backer probably has a longer shot of making an impact, but it also looks like a much weaker position group than DE.

Seems to me that DE was deemed as much deeper than ILB this draft, so superficially the value was probably better going for a DE.  There’s also the matter of the staff’s future being in question - so taking a more experienced player (at a position more likely to be able to have an impact) makes some sense, as opposed to focusing on upside.  

Of course, I can’t pretend I have any idea what Henry’s ceiling might be… or how they view his value for ST (the more likely way a 5th rounder contributes, especially short term).

57 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

I think I read they had him rated as a 3rd and when he was still available they moved up for someone higher than everyone else on the board.

 

Henry has potential, there are times he moves better than his testing numbers indicate. We'll find out in training camp I guess if he's ready to grab playing time immediately.

Probably tough with vets ahead of him - specifically decent players with experience in the system.  Personally, my philosophy is to have a vet as your next man up, but then a young guy with potential filling that next spot (or the 5th spot if you’re planning on keeping more), and that applies to most positions.  If they flash enough in practice in-season, maybe you give them some limited snaps.  If they don’t, they’re deep enough on the depth chart you probably don’t have to rely on them (except maybe for ST… if they’re even active).  If you’re lucky, they then supplant the vet at some point.  

As I said before, I like the idea of Toohill or JSW as the next man up*, then Obada as kind of a flex DT/DE, which should then allow for a guy like Henry to make the squad (even if you’re not ready to play him).

Interesting tidbit about the 3rd round grade (which jives with the draft’s DE depth), thx for that.

 

*would like WBK to nab that role as he theoretically has more upside than those others, but I’m not sure he’s shown us anything to this point.

[Koolblue13]

Of course they had him as a 3rd rounder. We probably had 60 other guys rated as 3rd rounders, too.

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, method man said:

Exactly. It’s more frustration on my end. I ultimately get it and I bet they view Henry as more than a rotational piece, which is why they traded up for him. Again, I believe that 5th round pick would have been perfect for an off ball guy

Rotational off ball guy?

[Jumbo]

9 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Rotational off ball guy?

 

It's a lot different than rotating on the ball from what I've heard. 😬

 

 

[Fan since a Fetus]

In order to rotate on the ball, one must become the ball